Progress Hybrid tips, tricks, and expectations?

[toddnic]

http://www.woodstove.com/prices-shipping?id=50

This is their guarantee on their website. It appears like they cover return shipping but don't refund the initial shipping costs. I'm not sure if they would cover shipping if I wanted to trade stoves. They have been great so far. They sent me some new studs to hold the back heat shield on for free as I over tightened one of the original studs and broke it. They sent me a free 18 inch rope gasket and are swapping out my cat for free also due to premature warping (I posted photos of it earlier). I don't think I'm going to have to resort to swapping out stoves anyway. The one I have is working great.

I can't say enough good about Woodstock! They also switched out my catalytic combustor because I USED my air compressor to "blow it out!" My mistake and they still took care of it. Glad that they are taking care of you also. I haven't had the same problem that you had with the popping noise. Weird..... Hope it goes away permanently!

 

[Tenn Dave]

I can't say enough good about Woodstock! They also switched out my catalytic combustor because I USED my air compressor to "blow it out!" My mistake and they still took care of it. Glad that they are taking care of you also. I haven't had the same problem that you had with the popping noise. Weird..... Hope it goes away permanently!

When I purchased my stove I had to delay installing it for 9 months. Before I did the install I contacted Woodstock and asked if anything had changed. They said there had been some design changes and improvements and sent me a new ash screen, cast iron cooktop, and cat combustor at no cost to me. Customer care extraordinaire !

 

[Air_cooled_driver]

So bizarre. It did it again tonight. I tried to take some pics to illustrate the concept. Stove full of wood that'd been baking in there for hours, large hot coal bed, and a sub-200 stove. I came down when I noticed how cold things were and saw this--opened up the stove and here's what I saw. The secondaries lit off almost immediately.

It's almost like someone hit "pause" on the fire.

 

[Isaiah53]

I have never operated a PH, but a couple of possibilities to consider: My first thought is that maybe your cat is simply inactive or not working for whatever reason and as the stove cools and it needs to rely on the cat for heat production, it simply is not there and the stove cools. It would basically be running as just as secondary burn stove. Smoke out the chimney would probably support this idea. My other thought is that your draft maybe marginal or you are trying to operate it at too low of an air setting for your set-up. As the stove and flue temps are cooling, your draft and air flow are being reduced and the stove spirals down in a cooling cycle. When you open the doors, you get a burst of air and heat to jump start stove with higher flue temps. Not sure how well your flue system is insulated. Could just try operating it on a higher air setting.

 

[joshrohde]

I had that happen to me also a few times. I assumed it was a cat stall from me closing the stove down too fast. Usually I open the air and bypass for 5 minutes and the fire roars. I let it climb a to 350-400 then shut it back down and it's fine after that.

Edit: this has only happened to me at night before I go to bed so I haven't made a effort to go outside and look at the smoke coming out the chimney to support the idea of a cat stall. It's cold out there at night. I shut the stove down at 300 (and close my stove pipe damper to reduce draft so the wood lasts until morning. My draft is extremely strong when it's in the negative degrees without it) I think it's my fault for my impatience when reloading and shutting down the stove before bed.

 

[fire_man]

So bizarre. It did it again tonight. I tried to take some pics to illustrate the concept. Stove full of wood that'd been baking in there for hours, large hot coal bed, and a sub-200 stove. I came down when I noticed how cold things were and saw this--opened up the stove and here's what I saw. The secondaries lit off almost immediately.
It's almost like someone hit "pause" on the fire.

This part makes no sense, because in order for the secondaries to fire, the internal firebox temp has to be >1000F. This is the temp that smoke starts to burn. A cat starts to burn it at half that temp, but secondaries in the firebox mean the box is hot.

I see this effect when I start a cold stove, all I get is "primary" wood flame until the stove gets really hot, then the gasses start to ignite and you get jets of flame and rolling ghost flames ie "secondaries".

 

[Isaiah53]

I suspect it is really just a primary burn from all the fresh air coming into the stove through the open door. The smoke can certainly be ignited down in the coals where it is hotter and then propagate rapidly (flash) up into the secondary area that would make it look like the "secondaries" lit off.

 

[Mitchhorne8]

I am in the midst of the third year with the Progress Hybrid having used a Fireview for 20+ years. I replaced the Fireview because the internals were distorted, probably from chronic overheating. My story includes some good news and some not-so-good news, but first I want to clearly state that Woodstock Soapstone Company is a fine organization with an excellent product and excellent customer service.

The mostly-good news:
The stove is very attractive, easy to load, and relatively easy to empty ashes with the ash pan. It provides a lot of heat and can burn all night with enough coals by morning to restart by simply adding wood. Soapstone has much better heat retention qualities than an equivalent weight of steel. This means longer time to heat up, but also longer time to cool down. I have a lot of "storage mass" in the room with the stove (brick wall, tile floor over concrete) so even is the stove cools somewhat by morning, the floor and the room are never cold. I burn mainly black locust that is several years old (from storm damage mostly) and have a lot more of it to use. I normally operate the stove with the inlet damper just slightly open. Last year I kept it mostly closed and had a lot of hard soot buildup in the chimney liner at the end of the season.

The not-so-good news:
I normally need to empty the ash pan every week. It I go much longer than that, I need to empty it more than once. At that time I also clean the glass and brush the screen. No problem with that. The problem is that I also need to remove and clean the catalytic converter almost every week because it is blocked with fine dust. Cleaning it with a vacuum cleaner is not a problem but taking the stove apart every week to do so is a BIG PITA. If the cat is not cleaned, the stove must be operated with the bypass open to get any decent draft. AFTER 2-1/2 YEARS, I HAVE DECIDED TO KEEP THE BYPASS OPEN ALL THE TIME AND NOT ENGAGE THE CAT. I could never see any difference in performance or stack appearance with it. When the stove is heating from a cold start I get some smoke regardless of bypass position. When the stove is up to temperature (>300) I have a perfectly clean stack regardless of bypass position. I did complain to Woodstock early in the game about the cat and they sent me a new one, no charge. It did not make any noticeable difference. I always engaged the cat in accordance with Woodstock's suggestions. Perhaps the cat does reduce emissions and improve overall efficiency, but not enough for me to justify weekly cat cleaning. I have read that others have a cat that is perfectly clean when the inspect it. Great for them but that is not my experience. Perhaps the quality of my wood is a factor, but my wood supply is what I have to work with for years to come.

When I load the hot stove full of wood, the temperature often rises to 500-600. At this writing, the stove is less than half full of wood (bypass open) that was added about an hour ago, the stovetop temperature is 500 and the stove pipe temperature about 2 feet up is 260, just about perfect. The damper is and has been just slightly open.

I welcome any comments, but you needn't explain the catalytic converter to me. I have two degrees in chemical engineering and have operated cat stoves for over 20 years. (I abandoned that catalytic converter on the Fireview after the first replacement for reasons similar to above.)

Thanks for any comments.

Hey everyone, new member and 1st post. I have to say I was having same issues, and was getting very discouraged, so much so that I took to the Internet for help. Alas I found this thread and your post. after continuing to read along I seen everyones great tips, I picked a few and I'm happy to say my problems have been solved! I also would have to take the stove apart and clean the Cat weekly to get any decent draft going, Now up here by Montreal We've had -30F since Dec! So letting the stove cool down in this climate was a very BIG pain. Now Im sure you tried this BUT what worked for me was really letting the fire BLAZE on bypass, somewhere in the upper 500's. Then I would engage and shut the damper down to only 10 percent open, wait for 30 mins then shut it all the way. That along with really cleaning the ash every reload. (all tips I read on this thread. Thank everyone again) The Stove has REALLY been running like a train in this deep freeze!

I think i wasn't getting the Cat hot Enough in the passed and engaging it too soon, that and along with not keeping as clean as I should have of ash between reloads the result was getting a build of ash in the Cat and possibly the air passages. I also removed the Rectangular section of the heat shield that sits right on the air intake.

 

[TJL]

If you're dead set on not using the catalyst then you should take it out and leave the bypass closed to increase the time the exhaust smoke is in the stove to try and get a little more heat out of it.

I've been thinking about this. Makes sense. Maybe next year.

 

[TJL]

I've been thinking about this. Makes sense. Maybe next year.

I should also add that I recently visited a local wood stove store to pick up some soot remover and discussed my cat cleaning issue with one of the owners and how I have essentially abandoned the cat. She told me that the (wood stove) industry is moving away from catalytic converters because of the maintenance (cleaning?) issues and replacement cost.

I sense that the main incentive for manufacturers to go with cats is to get EPA approval; the customer is, perhaps, a secondary consideration.

Any similar info from others?

 

[rideau]

Just have to disagree strongly with that stove store owner. If anything, exactly the opposite will happen. To meet new EPA regs, all stove makers may have to go toward Catalytic converters.

Catalytic converters give you a cleaner burn, longer period of high heat output, more efficiency. They are simple to use, simple to clean (as long as stove design makes access easy, Which Woodstock's does), and save you a lot of money, as their cost is far outweighed by the savings in wood.

Opening the top of the PH, removing the cat, brushing it, replacing it takes all of five to ten minutes. Takes much longer to bring a load of wood in. Don't find this a big deal, and would not even if I had to do it once a week. I generally check mine every other week, rather than let it get to a point where draft is compromised. And don't need to put the stove out of service to clean the cat. I do it just before reloading after burning the coals down, with no issues.

 

[TheRambler]

I have been checking my cat about every 3-4 weeks. Only a very light ash accumulation so far. I can open the stove, clean the cat, and close it all back up in 3-4 minutes.

 

[rdust]

I should also add that I recently visited a local wood stove store to pick up some soot remover and discussed my cat cleaning issue with one of the owners and how I have essentially abandoned the cat. She told me that the (wood stove) industry is moving away from catalytic converters because of the maintenance (cleaning?) issues and replacement cost.

It's too bad she's miss informed, I'd hope someone in the industry would be more in touch with what is going on. I can't wait until most/all the stoves she's selling has a cat in them in order to meet the new EPA requirements. I'm sure her tune will change a bit at that point. Education is going to be the key for people to successfully burn cat stoves. You simply can't abuse them like you can a non cat.(have to be a responsible burner)

I'm not a WS owner but a cat stove owner and it's unlikely I'll ever own a non cat stove again. I brush mine or vacuum it once or twice a season and never have issues. I know the PH requires more maintenance than that but sounds like it's a pretty simple task.

 

[joshrohde]

I clean my catalyst with a dyson pet hair vacuum. It has a soft bristle brush attachment for the hose and it works pretty well. It only takes 5 minutes every few weeks. I do it in the morning when the stove is cooler.

 

[begreen]

Must be a cat hair vacuum.

 

[joshrohde]

It's just the cheap little attachment that came with the vacuum. It's not the nice one my wife brushes the Germans with.

 

[joshrohde]

I've been thinking about this. Makes sense. Maybe next year.

That's what I would do if I decided to not use the cat. I'm a fan of the cat though. Mine has been performing well but it's still new.

 

[Tenn Dave]

It's too bad she's miss informed, I'd hope someone in the industry would be more in touch with what is going on. I can't wait until most/all the stoves she's selling has a cat in them in order to meet the new EPA requirements. I'm sure her tune will change a bit at that point. Education is going to be the key for people to successfully burn cat stoves. You simply can't abuse them like you can a non cat.(have to be a responsible burner)

I'm not a WS owner but a cat stove owner and it's unlikely I'll ever own a non cat stove again. I brush mine or vacuum it once or twice a season and never have issues. I know the PH requires more maintenance than that but sounds like it's a pretty simple task.

I have the PH and only have to clean my cat once a year at the end of the season.

 

[TJL]

"Opening the top of the PH, removing the cat, brushing it, replacing it takes all of five to ten minutes."

Not even close. Perhaps you and I have different stoves. My PH was received/installed March 2012. To clean the cat:

1. carefully remove and place on a blanket, towel (soft surface, careful not to chip) three soapstone pieces.
2. remove the metal insert and associated gasket, set aside
3. remove cat and associated gasket
4. get and setup vacuum
5. vacuum cat (and stove internals while I have the vacuum)
6. reinstall cat and carefully insert gasket with screwdriver.
7. reinstall metal insert and gasket
8, carefully replace three soapstone pieces (careful not to chip)
9. cleanup towel blanket, which is dirty from the various pieces​

For whatever reason, I need to do this weekly or the cat plugs. I clean the screen weekly and never open the door unless the cat is in bypass. From what I have read, some have cat plugging problems, some don't; I am in the former category. For what it's worth Woodstock has discontinued use of the inconel screen. This would only worsen my problem.

In three years I have yet to observe any performance improvement from the cat, although I have do not deny that emissions are less.
Next year, I will probably remove the cat and the screen and operate the stove with the bypass closed to force the exhaust gas through more of the internals which should somewhat improve heat transfer.

Further interesting reading: https://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hocats.htm

Thanks for your comments.

 

[begreen]

TJL, that would drive me nuts. What has Woodstock's response been?

 

[TheRambler]

"Opening the top of the PH, removing the cat, brushing it, replacing it takes all of five to ten minutes."

Not even close. Perhaps you and I have different stoves. My PH was received/installed March 2012. To clean the cat:

1. carefully remove and place on a blanket, towel (soft surface, careful not to chip) three soapstone pieces.
2. remove the metal insert and associated gasket, set aside
3. remove cat and associated gasket
4. get and setup vacuum
5. vacuum cat (and stove internals while I have the vacuum)
6. reinstall cat and carefully insert gasket with screwdriver.
7. reinstall metal insert and gasket
8, carefully replace three soapstone pieces (careful not to chip)
9. cleanup towel blanket, which is dirty from the various pieces​

For whatever reason, I need to do this weekly or the cat plugs. I clean the screen weekly and never open the door unless the cat is in bypass. From what I have read, some have cat plugging problems, some don't; I am in the former category. For what it's worth Woodstock has discontinued use of the inconel screen. This would only worsen my problem.

In three years I have yet to observe any performance improvement from the cat, although I have do not deny that emissions are less.
Next year, I will probably remove the cat and the screen and operate the stove with the bypass closed to force the exhaust gas through more of the internals which should somewhat improve heat transfer.

Further interesting reading: https://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hocats.htm

Thanks for your comments.

I do basically the same as you, except i dont have to even touch a gasket... Maybe model year differences. I could take the cat gasket off but it usually sits on its lip just fine during the cleaning. It literally takes me 3-4 minutes including all the steps. Cant see it taking any longer than 5 unless your vacuum is kept somewhere out of the way and hard to get to.

Having to clean it every week sounds excessive honestly. Can tou post a picture of what it looks like after a week? Do you have the ashpan?

 

[rdust]

TJL, that would drive me nuts. What has Woodstock's response been?

I agree, no way I'd want to deal with it. As stated above some have issues some do not, some think it's from too much draft others not enough.

Us BK guys only have to deal with the stinky/smokey smell.

 

[fire_man]

"Opening the top of the PH, removing the cat, brushing it, replacing it takes all of five to ten minutes."

Not even close. Perhaps you and I have different stoves. My PH was received/installed March 2012. To clean the cat:

1. carefully remove and place on a blanket, towel (soft surface, careful not to chip) three soapstone pieces.
2. remove the metal insert and associated gasket, set aside
3. remove cat and associated gasket
4. get and setup vacuum
5. vacuum cat (and stove internals while I have the vacuum)
6. reinstall cat and carefully insert gasket with screwdriver.
7. reinstall metal insert and gasket
8, carefully replace three soapstone pieces (careful not to chip)
9. cleanup towel blanket, which is dirty from the various pieces​

TJL - why do you have to remove any gaskets?

I have one of the early stoves like yours so it should be very similar.

When you remove the 3 stones, there is a cast iron griddle that rests on a gasket which should be GLUED to the stove.
When you remove the cat, there is gasket GLUED to the stove. Some people stuff another gasket around the cat just to make sure it's sealed tight, but that takes about 60 seconds. I don't understand the "insert and gasket " you are replacing.

I had a clogging cat problem but it was due to not running the air control wide enough - the cat was not lighting off properly and clogged. All I had to do was never shut the air completely and no more clogs.

 

[TJL]

First, thanks for all of your comments. I'll try and respond:

TJL, that would drive me nuts. What has Woodstock's response been?
Woodstock acknowledged that cleaning the cat every two weeks or so is not uncommon, although every week for me.

I could take the cat gasket off but it usually sits on its lip just fine during the cleaning.
My cat gasket is loose (not attached) and sits on top of the cat, wrapping part way around the sides. It takes a screw driver or similar to reinsert it; not a huge deal, just another step.

Can tou post a picture of what it looks like after a week? Do you have the ashpan?
No picture, since I don't plan on taking it apart again until the end of the season, however it is usually about 75% blocked with fine dust (not creosote) which is easily removed with a dusting brush attached to the vacuum. This blockage prevents any acceptable draft. Vacuuming the cat is easy; taking the stove apart every week, not so much, especially since I want the stove cool, i.e. no smoke entering the room. I do have the ashpan and am very happy with it, although I need to empty it every week, not the two weeks or so indicated by Woodstock. Obviously this is a function of how much wood is burned. I burn black locust 4+ years old.

... there is a cast iron griddle that rests on a gasket. I had a clogging cat problem but it was due to not running the air control wide enough - the cat was not lighting off properly and clogged. All I had to do was never shut the air completely and no more clogs.
I don't have the griddle. My gaskets are as described. The gaskets are not the problem. Letting the stove cool enough and taking it apart every week is the problem. Woodstock indicated that the damper could be completely shut and there would still be enough draft to support good combustion. I did this last year and found quite a bit carbon (hard, brittle but not sticky) when I cleaned the chimney and stove pipe, maybe a gallon or so. This year I NEVER have closed the damper all the way - always 20% or so open. I'll see what the soot situation is next month when I clean the chimney. Nevertheless, I am convinced that closing the damper all the way is a bad idea. The material clogging my cat is not creosote or anything combustible; it is very fine ash that has apparently gotten through (or around) the inconel screen.

I found the following on an earlier post (above):
I also would have to take the stove apart and clean the Cat weekly to get any decent draft going, Now up here by Montreal We've had -30F since Dec! So letting the stove cool down in this climate was a very BIG pain. Now Im sure you tried this BUT what worked for me was really letting the fire BLAZE on bypass, somewhere in the upper 500's. Then I would engage and shut the damper down to only 10 percent open, wait for 30 mins then shut it all the way. That along with really cleaning the ash every reload. (all tips I read on this thread. Thank everyone again) The Stove has REALLY been running like a train in this deep freeze!

I think i wasn't getting the Cat hot Enough in the passed and engaging it too soon, that and along with not keeping as clean as I should have of ash between reloads the result was getting a build of ash in the Cat and possibly the air passages. I also removed the Rectangular section of the heat shield that sits right on the air intake.

This is interesting. Getting the stovetop temp to 500F before engaging is about 2x what Woodstock indicates and is close to the temp at which the secondary air should fire (remember internal temp is about 2x the stovetop temp).

Also, cleaning the ash every reload .... I never really thought about that, however I don't normally wait to reload until all the wood has gone to ash so raking the ash (to the ashpan) every reload would not be practical.

Also, removed the Rectangular section of the heat shield that sits right on the air intake.
I don't see how this would impact cat plugging, but it could compromise safety.

Thanks again for all your comments.

 

[weatherguy]

This is interesting. Getting the stovetop temp to 500F before engaging is about 2x what Woodstock indicates and is close to the temp at which the secondary air should fire (remember internal temp is about 2x the stovetop temp).

I think he's referring to internal temps not the temp on the thermometer, the thermometer reads 1/2 of the internal temp.
I burned 7 ash for weeks with no problems then I switched to some 4 year seasoned oak and I started having the cat plugging problem. I had to clean it every two weeks. Just for kicks I switched back to 2 year sugar maple and went a few weeks without clogging. Not sure why the oak caused problems, it was seasoned below 20%, my theory was some of it was punky on the outside, I had it stacked for 4 years in the same spot, only covered it the last two, the stuff on the edges had the punk, the stuff in the middle was fine. Another thing I learned is if you stack your wood in one spot for 4 years the mice and chipmunks start building condominiums, it was ridiculous the amount of debris I had in that stack.