Pump size

[Huskurdu]

I apologize up front...but I'm probably going to be asking a ton of questions. I just got a quote to install my Econoburn 150 into my existing gas boiler loop and almost swallowed my tongue! I already bought the wood boiler, the two 1" pex lines are buried and it's too late now to quit. Can anyone give me a clue which pump they would suggest? It's got a Taco 007 on it now and obviously it's too small.?? The grade from the Econoburn to the gas boiler is about a 6-7 foot drop. The length is ~115 feet each way using Wirsbo 1" pex tubing. I insulated the pex with regular pipe insulation (taping the joints) then fed it through 3" pvc, then wrapped it in foil covered insulation (about 1/4 inch thick) then wrapped the whole mess with plastic (bunk silo blanket to be exact). I only used 45 degree bends for the pvc and there are 8 of them in each line. The existing gas boiler is a 90,000 btu unit @ about 80 percent efficient. That seemed important when the guy was figuring the pump size. Of course he won't share that info with me! Let me hear what you think.

 

[pybyr]

I don't have the background to help you size the pump but others here will; here's something that I hope might shed some light-

The Taco 007 that is on it might be the "return water protection" bypass pump, as Econoburn sends one of those exact types with each unit- I recall that you bought yours used, and I don't know if the prior owner had that plumbed in as Econoburn recommends, etc.

If this is all sounding new, I could photograph and e-mail you Econoburn's recommended diagram on that "protection pumping" layout

Also, don't hesitate to call Econoburn- from what I have found so far, their tech support is great, as long as your patient a bit with the fact that they're _really_ busy.

Even though you bought the unit second hand, I bet Econburn will be willing to work with you in the interest of a happy ending.

 

[Huskurdu]

I don't have the background to help you size the pump but others here will; here's something that I hope might shed some light-

The Taco 007 that is on it might be the "return water protection" bypass pump, as Econoburn sends one of those exact types with each unit- I recall that you bought yours used, and I don't know if the prior owner had that plumbed in as Econoburn recommends, etc.

If this is all sounding new, I could photograph and e-mail you Econoburn's recommended diagram on that "protection pumping" layout

Also, don't hesitate to call Econoburn- from what I have found so far, their tech support is great, as long as your patient a bit with the fact that they're _really_ busy.

Even though you bought the unit second hand, I bet Econburn will be willing to work with you in the interest of a happy ending.

This is 'sounding new'....could you please forward anything you have on this? Any help would be appreciated.

 

[pybyr]

Huskurdu- I haven't been ignoring you, but life has been zany... first look at this thread, which explains how Econoburn's implementation uses two pumps, one between the boiler and load, and the other in a "nearby loop with the boiler" (and no load) to make sure that the boiler comes up to temperature quickly, and does not fall below proper temperature.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/20980/

Failure to achieve that protection will result in serious ineffciency, creosote buildup, and in the long run, corrosion of the boiler.

Some of the Euro designs use fancy mix valves instead of pumps, but the Taco 007 you find yourself inheriting with Dale Q's boiler is almost certainly the one that Econoburn shipped with the boiler, intended to be used for that "nearby loop" for protection.

I am going to try to separately e-mail you the newest version of the Econoburn manual (which may not yet be in print or shipped with the boilers, but was e-mailed to me by Mark Odell, VP at Econoburn) which shows the diagram of how these two circulators are routed. It is a huge file, so I do not know if technology will cooperate; if not, I will try to excerpt and scan the one page with the diagram I'm talking about. The diagram is on printed page # 10, which in the adobe digital version, comes out as page 13

None of this answers your original question about pump sizing, but all of it is important to get right. The Taco 007 is probably unlikely to work for your main loop on the distance/ diameter your are talking about, but it is very important to rig the overall system right.

attempt with e-mail of newest Econoburn operating manual to follow in just a minute-let me know if you get the message and the attachment

 

[Huskurdu]

Huskurdu- I haven't been ignoring you, but life has been zany... first look at this thread, which explains how Econoburn's implementation uses two pumps, one between the boiler and load, and the other in a "nearby loop with the boiler" (and no load) to make sure that the boiler comes up to temperature quickly, and does not fall below proper temperature.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/20980/

Failure to achieve that protection will result in serious ineffciency, creosote buildup, and in the long run, corrosion of the boiler.

Some of the Euro designs use fancy mix valves instead of pumps, but the Taco 007 you find yourself inheriting with Dale Q's boiler is almost certainly the one that Econoburn shipped with the boiler, intended to be used for that "nearby loop" for protection.

I am going to try to separately e-mail you the newest version of the Econoburn manual (which may not yet be in print or shipped with the boilers, but was e-mailed to me by Mark Odell, VP at Econoburn) which shows the diagram of how these two circulators are routed. It is a huge file, so I do not know if technology will cooperate; if not, I will try to excerpt and scan the one page with the diagram I'm talking about. The diagram is on printed page # 10, which in the adobe digital version, comes out as page 13

None of this answers your original question about pump sizing, but all of it is important to get right. The Taco 007 is probably unlikely to work for your main loop on the distance/ diameter your are talking about, but it is very important to rig the overall system right.

attempt with e-mail of newest Econoburn operating manual to follow in just a minute-let me know if you get the message and the attachment

Thank you very much for the info again....I've spoken with Hank and the Taco 007 is for the protection loop as you eluded to. I will still have to nail down what size pump for the main loop (and figure out how to trigger it on/off, but that's minor). I'm glad I asked the question....I could have really messed up big time! So I'm going to use the Taco 007 for the protection loop, an unknown pump for the main loop to my gas boiler return line. I've got another short loop (gravity flow on power out) going to a huge radiator for power-out protection with a normally open zone valve with thermostat (should be able to use this for heat in the garage as well as power-out protection). The radiator will be slightly higher than the wood boiler and the lines will be routed uphill to it with no 'dips' to allow for thermal flow...at least that is what I was told to do. Sound logical?

 

[pybyr]

your dump zone idea sounds interesting, but how will you support the weight of a huge radiator high enough to be above the boiler- the iron is bad enough before you even fill it with water...

 

[Huskurdu]

your dump zone idea sounds interesting, but how will you support the weight of a huge radiator high enough to be above the boiler- the iron is bad enough before you even fill it with water...

I'm going to park my truck beside the boiler and put the radiator on top of it. No, I was just going to build a shelf suported from the wall and 2x4 legs to the floor. The bottom of it will be about 4 1/2' to 5' off the floor. This will get it as close to the ceiling as possible. The radiator is about 4' long by 3' high (give or take)....it shouldn't be too bad.

 

[heaterman]

Here's some assumptions and numbers

Assumptions:
230' round trip, 20' of 1-1/4" copper tubing for near boiler piping, 6 1-1/4" 90* ells, dumping into your boiler loop via primary/secondary tees (2), with 4 1" 90's in the house.
90,000 btu boiler @ 80% eff = 72,000 btu heat load
72,000 btu delivered at a 20* temp drop supply to return = a bit over 7GPM required

GPM numbers for various circs @ those design parameters

B&G;NRF22 = 5.9
Grundfos 15-58FC speed 3 = 6.4
Grundfos 26-64 = 8.1
Taco 007IFC = 5.1
Taco 0010IFC = 5.4

'atsabout all I can do from here.

Note: You will need to use an IFC circ or else install a flo check of some kind to prevent flow in the heating side of things when the bypass circ is running.

 

[Huskurdu]

Here's some assumptions and numbers

Assumptions:
230' round trip, 20' of 1-1/4" copper tubing for near boiler piping, 6 1-1/4" 90* ells, dumping into your boiler loop via primary/secondary tees (2), with 4 1" 90's in the house.
90,000 btu boiler @ 80% eff = 72,000 btu heat load
72,000 btu delivered at a 20* temp drop supply to return = a bit over 7GPM required

GPM numbers for various circs @ those design parameters

B&G;NRF22 = 5.9
Grundfos 15-58FC speed 3 = 6.4
Grundfos 26-64 = 8.1
Taco 007IFC = 5.1
Taco 0010IFC = 5.4

'atsabout all I can do from here.

Note: You will need to use an IFC circ or else install a flo check of some kind to prevent flow in the heating side of things when the bypass circ is running.

I will be shopping Ebay for the pumps you've suggested. I'll use this as a guide. Your info is awesome! Thank you.

 

[heaterman]

Here's some assumptions and numbers

Assumptions:
230' round trip, 20' of 1-1/4" copper tubing for near boiler piping, 6 1-1/4" 90* ells, dumping into your boiler loop via primary/secondary tees (2), with 4 1" 90's in the house.
90,000 btu boiler @ 80% eff = 72,000 btu heat load
72,000 btu delivered at a 20* temp drop supply to return = a bit over 7GPM required

GPM numbers for various circs @ those design parameters

B&G;NRF22 = 5.9
Grundfos 15-58FC speed 3 = 6.4
Grundfos 26-64 = 8.1
Taco 007IFC = 5.1
Taco 0010IFC = 5.4

'atsabout all I can do from here.

Note: You will need to use an IFC circ or else install a flo check of some kind to prevent flow in the heating side of things when the bypass circ is running.

I will be shopping Ebay for the pumps you've suggested. I'll use this as a guide. Your info is awesome! Thank you.

Are my assumptions about your piping anywhere close to what you actually have? With that amount of 1" tube in play, just a few more fittings in the house or by the boiler can make a large difference in the flow rate.

 

[Huskurdu]

Here's some assumptions and numbers

Assumptions:
230' round trip, 20' of 1-1/4" copper tubing for near boiler piping, 6 1-1/4" 90* ells, dumping into your boiler loop via primary/secondary tees (2), with 4 1" 90's in the house.
90,000 btu boiler @ 80% eff = 72,000 btu heat load
72,000 btu delivered at a 20* temp drop supply to return = a bit over 7GPM required

Note: You will need to use an IFC circ or else install a flo check of some kind to prevent flow in the heating side of things when the bypass circ is running.

I will be shopping Ebay for the pumps you've suggested. I'll use this as a guide. Your info is awesome! Thank you.

Are my assumptions about your piping anywhere close to what you actually have? With that amount of 1" tube in play, just a few more fittings in the house or by the boiler can make a large difference in the flow rate.

Well...I'm still battling through a map of the system....but the 1" pex will tie directly into the 1-1/4 copper return line of the gas boiler...so that will give me 2 tees in the house. There will be a valve on both pex lines where they meet as well as a valve on the 1-1/4" copper line between where the pex lines intersect. This will give me flexibility later, so I'm told. On the wood boiler close loop I guess I'm using 1-1/4 copper with the Taco 007 that came with the unit. I'll also be using 1-1/4 copper for the power-out loop through a large house radiator. The main loop that the pump-in-question will be attached to all 1" pex with 2 tees to make the loop turns. Hank @ Econoburn said that a Taco 007 would not do it, but I don't think he has all the data that you have. I'm in the process of mapping the system with pencil and paper. I could try to scan and post what I have if that would help. It is still somewhat incomplete though.

 

[BrownianHeatingTech]

If the heat is going from the Econoburn to the gas boiler, the piping needs to flow 150kbtuh.

At a 20-degree drop, that works out to 15gpm.

1" pex will be too small for that amount of flow, without exceeding the maximum flow velocity.

Aside from that, the head loss on just the pex run, without even including piping at each end, would be over 55 feet (almost 24psi), and a pump delivering that will be very expensive (ie, commercial size).

Going to 1-1/4" pex would help, but realistically you should run 1-1/2" pex for that sort of distance with that many gallons per minute.

40mm Uponor (Wirsbo's new name) pex would have a 8.4ft head loss at that run, so a Grundfos UPS26-99FC would give you adequate flow and head pressure to run. On speed 2, it would produce about 14 feet of head at 15gpm, so you would have some extra to handle the near-boiler piping. And you would have speed 3 on the switch if the piping ended up being too restrictive, or if you added glycol to the system (glycol is thicker than water, so the head loss goes up).

A Wilos Stratos variable-speed pump would also be an option, but they are expensive.

Joe

 

[heaterman]

Joe

What did I miss? Where did the 150K come from?

 

[BrownianHeatingTech]

What did I miss? Where did the 150K come from?

If I'm reading this correctly, he has the Econoburn (a 150k unit) at the end of the pex lines, sending heat towards the gas boiler (which is the 90k unit).

I also just noticed that he says the 1" pex lines are already buried, which is a bit of an issue. Digging it up and putting in the right size line, or a second line (1" or 1-1/4") in parallel would be the best option.

I hate having to tell folks that something like a buried line is sized incorrectly, and they will have to do something like dig it up.

The other options would be:
-add storage (near the Econoburn, not in the house near the gas boiler) now, so that the buried line only needs to carry 80 or 90 kbtuh. That adds to the install cost, but I think that it's the best solution in the long run.
-put in a very large pump, which will be expensive to install, and expensive to operate.
-put in a very large dump zone at the boiler end (capable of absorbing 60kbtuh or so), and under-load the boiler until such time as storage is installed (again, the storage tank would need to be at the wood boiler end of the pipe). That would probably be the cheapest solution (in terms of what you pay right now), although it would require that the user be very careful not to load the boiler to more than 1/2 or 2/3 capacity.

So, I think those are the 4 most practical options...

Joe

 

[mikeyny]

I have 2 007's on the return side of my setup.. There is one for upstairs and one for down. 2 inch pipe come in from the garage 80 feet away 12 ft. down hill. Pipe is connected to bypass gas boiler as needed. Check valves and relief valves also. Pumps were aquired used. One is of the old style, (no cartridge). My system, an 82 tarm multifuel 110,000 btu heats the 3000, st ft house most of the time. 12 full cords per season incl. dhw. It may not be quite properly engineered but it woks great. Those 007's are real work horse's. I do strongly suggest you go with the advice of the engineers. My system was built mostly of free or almost free stuff.
Mike

 

[heaterman]

"I hate having to tell folks that something like a buried line is sized incorrectly, and they will have to do something like dig it up. "

Been there done that. It seems as though most of the places that sell OWB's think that 1" is the only size tube in existence. One of the guys working for the insulating company I use told me they did a 1" line set that was a bit over 500' a couple weeks ago. The lines ran from the largest CB made to a 12,000 sq ft pole barn and then to the guys house. I just get speechless when I hear stuff like that. Do these people have no brain or do they not care? That load has to be a minimum of 30GPM..............and by some kind of magic they think they are going to ram it through 500' of 1" pex? Un flippin' believeable!

I see where you're coming from on the 150K. I was looking at it from the load side of the equation, thinking about what he actually needed to get enough heat to the house. The situation he described would definitely be better served with some storage to dump the full output of the E-150 into but 1" pex will probably carry the load of his house alone.

 

[Huskurdu]

I cannot believe that the 'local' installer would sell me the 1" pex line and be ready to hook it up for me if he didn't think it would work.....but on the other hand you never know. Let me clear up some things. My existing gas boiler is ~90 kbtu @ 80 percent efficiency is about 72 kbtu that I require for the house and domestic hot water. I will be putting the Econoburn 150 in the garage to supply that 72 kbtu. If there is extra available heat then I will use that in the garage. It looks like I could extend the primary loop about 20' with 1-1/4" copper inside the garage and reduce my secondary loop by that much taking the 1" pex length down to about 85-90 feet one way. That is, if that doesn't make my main loop (protection loop?) too large. There is no way I'm digging up that pex now. I just finished the job. I need other alternatives. PLEASE.

 

[Willman]

Numbers and engineering don't lie. You have two well respected pros weighing in on your unfortunate situation. I would heed what they have to say, as sad as it is. Maybe dig down and bury another line set on top of the others and then insulate. a lot of work I'm sure but you would want to be able to utilize all the btu's available from your unit.

Will

 

[Huskurdu]

Numbers and engineering don't lie. You have two well respected pros weighing in on your unfortunate situation. I would heed what they have to say, as sad as it is. Maybe dig down and bury another line set on top of the others and then insulate. a lot of work I'm sure but you would want to be able to utilize all the btu's available from your unit.

Will

Again, I don't need to transfer 150 kbtu through the 1" pex..... I need 72kbtu max. Still a problem?

 

[pybyr]

I cannot believe that the 'local' installer would sell me the 1" pex line and be ready to hook it up for me if he didn't think it would work.....but on the other hand you never know. Let me clear up some things. My existing gas boiler is ~90 kbtu @ 80 percent efficiency is about 72 kbtu that I require for the house and domestic hot water. I will be putting the Econoburn 150 in the garage to supply that 72 kbtu. If there is extra available heat then I will use that in the garage. It looks like I could extend the primary loop about 20' with 1-1/4" copper inside the garage and reduce my secondary loop by that much taking the 1" pex length down to about 85-90 feet one way. That is, if that doesn't make my main loop (protection loop?) too large. There is no way I'm digging up that pex now. I just finished the job. I need other alternatives. PLEASE.

I DON'T wan't to seem like I am trying to second-guess the "Pros"- 'cause I am not (yet).... one of those- but it seems from everything that I have researched for my own install like the two "limiting factors" for pipe diameter are two totally differennt factors: (1) high velocity of water flow through relatively small pipe diameter = high probability of noise from the high-velocity flow, which is kinda irrelevant when you are considering underground; and (2) risk of erosion corrosion/failure of plumbing & fittings from high velocity/ high-temp flows.

All I've read seems to suggest that 4 FPS is the top for noise avoidance (irrelevant when buried), and that somewhere around 8-12 FPS is the upper limit for avoiding erosion corrosion. It seems like you or one of the "pros" on here needs to figure whether you can move the FPS/ GPM/ BTUs to move the needed heat without risking blowing out your fittings at the boiler, underground, or in your celllar. PEX (of any diameter) without fittings (if you have avoided in-line fittings) in-line seems a lot less likely to have erosion corrosion issues- so it all seems like a matter of the BTUs you are able to move without blowing out your pipe fittings, and at an operating cost (pump size to move those BTUs and GPMs) that you can live with

 

[Huskurdu]

I understood a small part of what you said .... Here is what I 'think' I know. The primary loop is going to be the loop that comes out of, and goes into, the wood boiler. It is created solely for the purpose of getting the boiler up to temp quickly and creating a 'mix' of hot and cold to the boiler when the secondary loop is running. It should be about 20' of 1-1/4" copper ideally. There is a secondary loop that comes from the primary loop and ties in to the return side of my gas boiler in my basement @ the return side of the gas boiler. There is also a pretection loop (power-out loop) also that is going to be created from 1-1/4" copper also, but that doesn't seem to be in question at this time.
The supply side (hot side) of the primary loop will feed the 'hot' side of the secondary loop via a tee and the secondary loop cold side (return side) will feed the primary loop via a tee also. So one leg of the primary loop will also be the turnaround leg for the secondary loop when it's running. As I stated, I could extend the primary loop about 20' to shorten the secondary loop if needed.
Sorry for the simplistic terms.....hard to explain with text.....
I'd love to push this problem off to a installer, but with a quote of $2300 I'm hoping that I could save a considerable amount of labor dollars by doing everything I can myself. I'm also hoping to save some money on parts also thanks to the internet. I hope you understand.

 

[pybyr]

Husrkurdu- (you must be a Bob Mould fan or something, but that's a another OT topic)

unless you can get a really good pro to help you, and I am not yet one of those, here's how it goes--

water will gain about 8.34 BTU per gallon per degree in temperature increase

"feasible" gallons per minute of water of the selected pump capacity and friction losses in your pipe [already installed] will determine how many BTUs you can move per minute or hour through the pipe you have installed already

Gallons per minute to move a given amount of BTUs per hour will let you figure out the flow of water in feet-per-second.

Usual "assumed" gain at a boiler or drop in a hydronic load is 20 degrees. although that is not set in stone; you [supposedlt, according to people who know a lot more than me] can bump that up to 25 or 30 ( allowing more heat to move through smaller tubing) if you design it all appropriately)

you DO need to keep feet-per-second (FPS) of water movement above 2- and preferably not too far above about 8-12, especially if you have metallic fittings in the flow path (4 is the safe limit for noise avoidance, and, above 8-12 FPS, you're risking wearing away and blowing out the fittings on your PEX)(upper acceptable FPS limits are _seriously_ fuzzy and unclear on this).

from there, follow the math (and get ahold of the textbooks from people like John Siegenthaler and/ or Dan Holohan) to figure whether you can move the needed BTUs' hour with reasonable thermal and electrical efficiency (how much power you'll burn to move enough BTUs with a big circulator through a small pipe).

OR call Econoburn's tech line and try to talk to Dan Goede and/ or Mark Odell. They are EXCELLENT, experienced and customer-oriented people who want you to succeed, probably not the least of which reasons being that you are the second owner of a Boiler (Dale Q's) that was a non-success the first time around (and which I almost bought and looked into carefully) (and which was a non-success mostly not due to anything on Econoburn's part, but because the fellow who you bought it from wanted wishful thinking to turn it into something (like an OWB that had inherent built-in water/heat storage) that it never was and never could be)

 

[kabbott]

72k is possible for 1 inch at 115 feet each way even with a small pump such as a taco 00R or 009, but just barely and not counting any other fittings.
Sounds like you could shorten the 1 inch run inside your garage and that would help.
A storage tank in garage would help keep boiler from idling and someone on the forum, cant recall the name, has a storage tank with part uninsulated to heat
garage.

As stated their are some great people here who really no their "stuff" and I will let them handle the specifics but I Think you will be fine with your already buried
line.

 

[Huskurdu]

72k is possible for 1 inch at 115 feet each way even with a small pump such as a taco 00R or 009, but just barely and not counting any other fittings.
Sounds like you could shorten the 1 inch run inside your garage and that would help.
A storage tank in garage would help keep boiler from idling and someone on the forum, cant recall the name, has a storage tank with part uninsulated to heat
garage.

As stated their are some great people here who really no their "stuff" and I will let them handle the specifics but I Think you will be fine with your already buried
line.

I hope you're right!! I'm now hoping that by extending the primary loop I don't screw up the operation of the boiler. I've only got the two tees on each end for restrictions and the pex itself has no other joints in it. I hope to keep the boiler at full capacity all the time because I will have another loop heating the garage. But if the secondary loop to the house is not pulling the heat fast enough then i'm still stuck. I saw that thread that you are talking about on the storage tank and I would rather spend another $1000 putting in a heat storage tank rather than spending another $1000 on the pex run again You know what I mean????

 

[Huskurdu]

Just found this on Ebay.....

"The 009 circulator is designed for use in hot water heating systems and is used in circulating zones in the floor heat and baseboard. Maximum load: 150' of run at 8' of lift with 1" I.D. water line.TP009 Taco 009 Circulating pump (110 volt)"

If I was to reduce the 'lift' to say 4' and my total run to 180' would that make a difference? Or do the specs above only apply on a non-loop system? Also, what happens to the pump if you exceed the recommended run? Does the pump fail?