Putting cold air returns in the main floor

[Jeffrey nash]

Hi all,
I was thinking about putting cold air returns and registers in each of my rooms on my main floor. Here's the question. Will putting 2 well placed holes in each room going to be enough to allow heat to rise to my rooms and cold air to return to the cellar where my pellet stove is? Under the premise that cold air is heavier then hot air of coarse.
The stove will heat my cellar up to 75 degrees with little problem in about 2 hours on high. It heats my living room and kitchen ,which are at the top of the stairs with an open banister to 70 degrees as long as I shut the bed room doors down the hall.
I would like to add the holes in my floors to get the heat to rise into the rooms and also let cold air return to the cellar to be heated. Will gravity be enough to allow this to take place naturally or will I have to intervene with fans and what not?
I guess I should have giving a little better explanation of my house so you will know what we're dealing with. It is a standard ranch style home,24'x 40'. Open living room,dinning,kitchen area with standard 8' ceilings and a Short hallway with 3 bed rooms at the end. Hopes this helps with the answer
I just installed the pellet stove on Sunday and love it. It is only 40,000 btu's at max out put but man what a difference. The furnace runs very little now and that's what I was looking for but now the wheels are spinning and my inner demons...LOL, wont let it alone.Have to try and make it better and maximize its potential
Thanks in advance for any help you can give and I just want to say this site rocks....

Jeff

 

[ChrisWNY]

Hi Jeff - I direct-ducted my Fahrenheit furnace to my first floor great room, including installing a cold air return for return flow back into the furnace, but it was designed for that. I've seen some threads in here where guys have ducted their pellet stoves (by placing a duct over the area where the heat blows out of the stove) into their first and 2nd floors, it's a possibility and something you may want to consider. Ideally, you want to force the airflow down the return and the heat up through the heat registers, which is why ducts and blowers are used in forced air heating/cooling systems. Gravity alone may be sufficient in a smaller ranch however for supplying heat, but not efficient, there will be heat lost to your foundation walls (especially if they're not insulated) as well as heat loss caused by other factors. Holes/registers in the floor might cause you some issues if you have A/C in the house over the Summer, however, if you use standard heat registers you can close them over the Summer so that the A/C doesn't cool your basement instead of your living space.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Hi neighbor,

In addition to potential A/C issues pointed out by Chris you should also look into any possible code issues before cutting any holes between your first floor and basement.

I have pretty good luck using just natural air flow and the convection blower on high on my stove. My layout is decent for getting the heat into the first floor great room of the two first floor bedrooms the one furthest from the stairwell does better than the one directly over the stove room. But then heating 1800+ square feet on two floors with an offset isn't always the easiest thing to do. My stair well acts as both hot air ducting and cold air return. There is a half wall along one edge of the stairwell on the first floor. The hot air goes out the door way downstairs into the stairwell at the top of the doorway, it then continues up the walls and out over the half wall into the great room. The cold air spills down the bottom of the stairs.

 

[Don2222]

Hello

I am using the stairwell to the downstairs as my cold air return

See my latest post on bringing the heat up!!
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/71518/

 

[Heaterhunter]

I lived in a typical cape and my new house I'm heating now is the same with a few additions. Heating a cape is much tougher than heating a Ranch with a pellet stove just because getting the heat upstairs without a full hot air ducting system is nearly impossible. I have cut holes(2) to supply my first floor with hot air via somewhat crude ducting and I also cut in one large return duct in a more remote colder area down to the basement, I chose the remote location to get the circulation of air(and heat) to that area of the house. So far so good. Same scenario at my previous house. Like Smokey says, I would attempt to heat without the registers/ducting every way possible. Maybe some strapping and 2" foam on the basement walls(if unfinished) would do the trick. I have heated lots of dirt in my 6 years of burning pellets in an uninsulated basement. :-/

 

[Pellet-King]

Cape harder than a ranch?????, my cape heats the upstairs as good as the room as the stove is in.
Ranch is hard to get the heat down that looong hallway......

 

[save$]

you might want to consider putting an exhaust fan the floor of the coolest room farthest away from your stove, or the stairwell. usually the best area for this is the north end. The trict to this is to get the cold air to go toward the stove. It is heavier than warm air. Warm air will quickly replace the cold air that has move back down toward the heat source. I bought some 6 inch ducting, floor grate, and an in line air booster to move the air, but it is one of those 'round to it's that I have lined up and yet to do.

 

[Jeffrey nash]

Hey Guys,
thanks for all the good input. I think I am going to try the ducting and I'm going to build my own tin hood. I have to let the last weeks expenses evaporate for a while cause momma is giving me the look if you know what I mean
I bought the stove and a ton of little things like brushes to clean with and hepa filters and vacuum attachments and all the other stuff that goes with the new toy.Shes
looking at me like how more crap do you need....lol. I bought a battery for back up and oh did I mention next years pellets...lol...so when the dust settles I will start compiling the ducting and the other things I will need.
Its going to be pretty basic but I think it will work alright. I going to make a hood a little bigger then the top of my stove and cut 6 4" holes in it and run 6 heating lines from it. I will see if I can come up with a fan that is lying around and give the system a little boost. I will then cut some cold air returns in each room and run drop lines back to the stove area where the cold air can be heated up some what quickly.
Well that's what I have come up with from all the suggestions and a few of my own thoughts. What do you think? Will it work. I'm not going big coin on any of this. It will be cheep 4" hose and metal band to hang everything. The biggest expense I think will be ths sheet metal to build the hood. I don't have a break s it will be the vice and wood trick to bend the metal. I will star cut the circles for the duct holes and the center metal will be the tabs that hold the ducts in place. Other then that some metal bands to hang from my joist's to hold the hood in place and we should have it....I HOPE

Jeff

 

[Heaterhunter]

Cape harder than a ranch?????, my cape heats the upstairs as good as the room as the stove is in.
Ranch is hard to get the heat down that looong hallway......

I'm saying apples to apples, trying to heat a Ranch or a Cape from the basement...

 

[dragracer300]

Just remember your dealing with a 40,000 btu space heater. the more space you try to heat the less effective it becomes. I'm thinking of adding a second stove upstairs for night time. The stove i have heats the main floor just fine but the upstairs is still cold.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

What is even better is to find and fix all deficiencies in your house's ability to retain heat. It frequently pays huge dividends.

 

[Heaterhunter]

What is even better is to find and fix all deficiencies in your house's ability to retain heat. It frequently pays huge dividends.

+1! I'm going to blow in insulation in my attic, reinsulate cathedral ceilings and put 1" foam board over bats/rafters and maybe (if finances allow) insulate my unfinished basement walls with strapping and 2" foiled foam on that. This will help my cause more than a new stove due to the inadequecies of my house. Have to get the house squared away before I continue with improving my heating methods.

 

[Jeffrey nash]

Well, Boys and Girls
I built my manifold and run my heat duct and cold air return to my first bedroom. All I can say is wow. I'm running my stove this on setting 2 and my basement thermostat is set on 68 and both up stairs and the basement are just coasting on that setting. I knew this was going to work well but I actually have to worry now about my bedroom being to hot and that's just with the blower on my stove.
Now you have to understand ... This is just a 40,000 btu baby magnum. I really don't care if the basement is heated or not but its just residual heat. I put 4 baffles in the manifold and am only hooked up to 1 of them. I taped off 1 and left 2 open until I run more baffles tomorrow. The balance with the 1 line is unbelievable. Temp up and down are identical. I know as I run more lines up stairs that will change but my basement will stay 59 constantly with 0 heat so it don't take much to bring it up to the 68 degrees.
I will take pics and put them on here soon. I got out of the whole system for 230.00. I bought 2- 4' length's of duct and cut them down to 30" cause my stove is only that wide. The manifold is 16" x 8" x 30". I cut a hole in the front of my stove the same size as my blower grate 4"x 30"s.I put 4-4" baffles in the back of the unit with just 4" dryer hose. Bought registers and the regs duct for the floor. I put cold air returns under my windows and heat on the inside wall.
I'm pumped. I am going to be able to heat my whole house with this little stove and will very little effort from the stove. Now that's saving the amount of money worth talking about... My oil hasn't kicked on for heat since I put the stove in last Sunday but I had to keep my thermostat on 75 down stairs in order to get the up stairs up 68-70 so it definitely worth doing this if the application applies to your home.
Keep the fire burning HOT ,and I will get pics on within the next couple days

 

[Alternative Guy]

In a forced air system, it is better to have the heat on the outside walls, and return on the inside, I believe. Of course, your system is custom. Have fun.

 

[Don2222]

Hello Jeff

Do you have the duct directly touching the pellet stove?

In my pics here it seemed to make a huge difference!!
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/71518/

Anyway, I am really interested in how you make out and cannot wait to see your pics

 

[Jeffrey nash]

Actually my manifold,as I call it ,sits a little on top on the top edge and touches on the bottom across the front. My stove is just a little guy and I don't call it forced hot air but gently persuaded hot air...LOL. It gives the air just enough boost to help it up into the rooms,which is just what I wanted.
I am running my stove on setting 2 and am having no problem with 68 to 70 degrees. That's hot for us.Before the pellet stove we kept our furnace on 65 and just added cloths if it got to bad. Hell this feels like the Bahama's for us and the oil burner has only kicked on for hot water and I am about to intercede with the manual on,off of the switch so to save even more.
I will have some pic's on here tomorrow so you can see the beast for yourself. I do not know all the math that goes into a well balanced system but I just needed to help a little heat get up stairs so we could enjoy it and now we can and we're saving on all the pellets it was taking to heat the celler to 75 just in hopes that we would see 66 to 70 up stairs. All in all I did what I set out to do. Save pellets and get the heat where we can enjoy it.
Stay tune for the pics.


Jeff

 

[brihvac]

In a forced air system, it is better to have the heat on the outside walls, and return on the inside, I believe.

You are correct.

I would have ran a 8" piece of flex duct from a metal floor boot attached to your stove, to the return of your heater and just ran the blower. If there are rooms you dont want conditioned, just close of the registers.

 

[Alternative Guy]

In a forced air system, it is better to have the heat on the outside walls, and return on the inside, I believe.

You are correct.

I would have ran a 8" piece of flex duct from a metal floor boot attached to your stove, to the return of your heater and just ran the blower. If there are rooms you dont want conditioned, just close of the registers.

I grew up in a home with the hot air registers on the inside walls, and the returns on the outside. It was on the uncomfortable side in the winter, unless you were seated on an inside wall . I don't know if is that much of a factor for the OP here.

 

[brihvac]

In a forced air system, it is better to have the heat on the outside walls, and return on the inside, I believe.

You are correct.

I would have ran a 8" piece of flex duct from a metal floor boot attached to your stove, to the return of your heater and just ran the blower. If there are rooms you dont want conditioned, just close of the registers.

I grew up in a home with the hot air registers on the inside walls, and the returns on the outside. It was on the uncomfortable side in the winter, unless you were seated on an inside wall . I don't know if is that much of a factor for the OP here.

Doing HVAC for a living...You always "wipe" the outer walls(colder) with supplys, preferably under the windows. Not really a big deal, just the proper way to do it.

Alternative Guy- Where are you buying your pellets? Im right on the PA border.

 

[Alternative Guy]

Alternative Guy- Where are you buying your pellets? Im right on the PA border.

Actually I am a wood burner. This thread caught my eye because I put my own returns and heating vents in my house for the furnace. I heat mostly with the stove, and the furnace is for when I'm not here or lazy.

I had Treecycle a mile away from me, but every indication is they are out of business. I learned tonight from their neighbor that the two loaders we repossessed (see other thread), and the bank locked the gates a few days ago. Great American is a brand new plant in Palmerton, and then there is PA Pellets. I don't know what is the next closest plant after that.

 

[Don2222]

Hello

Just saw Holmes on Homes tonight where they fixed air leaks in the HVAC in the basement. They measured the heat coming out of the register in the upper floor.

Temp Before the fix
40 Degrees C or 104 Degrees F

Temp After the fix
45 Degrees C or 113 Degrees F

So that is what an HVAC system with FHA puts out to heat a home.

What temps are you getting with the Pellet Stove at the hot air registers??

 

[Alternative Guy]

Hello

Just saw Holmes on Holmes tonight where they fixed air leaks in the HVAC in the basement. They measured the heat coming out of the register in the upper floor.

Temp Before the fix
40 Degrees C or 104 Degrees F

Temp After the fix
45 Degrees C or 113 Degrees F

So that is what an HVAC system with FHA puts out to heat a home.

What temps are you getting with the Pellet Stove at the hot air registers??

I think this depends on your furnace. I have a high efficiency FHA, but the air isn't that hot. I think mine is in the 90's.

 

[Jeffrey nash]

Well, this is the third time trying to download my pic's, maybe it will be the charm... yes it worked.Finally after 2 hours last night and almost 1.5 today I got them to upload.
Now don't be to hard on me here. I'm far from a pro and really did not know what I was doing but this is my deal.
I put the cold air returns under my windows because I was going on the premise that as the cold air came through my windows it would just drop into my cold air ducts, and I put the hot air on the inside walls because I have very little pressure behind the hot air and it is slowly rising into the rooms. I do not have the capacity to mix with the cold air enough to negate the heat loss that would result from having the heat under my windows because I am running off the blower on my little stove and have not yet put any other assistance via another blower in my duct that goes over the stove
As of last night,being the first night of the whole system being on line, my stove was set on 2 and my celler was 72 degrees this morning and my upstairs was 69 degrees. I was very impressed to say the least because for about 1/4 of a bag of pellets I woke up to 4 degrees warmer than I ever was when I was just burning oil.
This is a very simple set up that I came up with,with no knowledge of heating theory so the only thing I can go on is it is working. I know about the heat loss that I have through the cheep ducting but again I was'nt selling a patterned product just trying to get my house as close to 70 degrees up stairs as I could and it works some what well for being a hack job and it only cost 200.00 bucks roughly to install.
My manifold temp stays at about 200 degrees and if I crank it up can get it to over 250. I have not checked the temp with a gage coming out of the registers except the unscientific way of placing a foot over it. Heat present at all outlets so some heat,just enough to temper my rooms is making up there.
My blower is no where's big enough to displace enough air to over load the ducting and create a strain on my pump so I think I may be all right.
O.K...lets have it by all the hvac gurus. I do have broad shoulders and am open to any thoughts on what I could to to make it better with what I have ,if it can be done but am not willing to flip any coin for it because I'm not interested in making my rooms 75 or 80 degrees...just wanted to get most of the heat in the celler up where we could enjoy it.
Oh the pic you see where the hoses are up in the air are when the unit is in maintenance mode...lol...couple of hinges and wa la..its out of the way

Jeff

P.S Just remember I'm just a redneck trying to keep my family warm not interveiwing for a job...lol

 

[Alternative Guy]

That's cool Jeff. Thanks for the pics. How do you raise and lower the plenum?

I see what you mean regarding the amount of heat you have, and what would happen if the warm air came up near a window. {sucking sound} You wouldn't really know there was any heat rising.

I sometimes tried to visualize what it would be like to add ducting to a stove. Now I have one sample. Enjoy.

 

[Jeffrey nash]

My vertical bracket's are cut just above the stove and lock washers and wing nuts allow it to pivot straight above the stove. It stays in place above with just a compression fit i.e the bracket's are the same width as the duct and the hangers have just enough side to side flex to allow the box to fit and stay nice and snug. Best part is its a one man gig...don't need anyone there to hold anything
Thanks for your comments