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quadrafire and simpson

Post in 'It's a Gas!' started by bigfrank, Feb 6, 2009.

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  1. bigfrank

    bigfrank New Member

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    I have a brand new Quadrafire Sapphire DV gas stove that has just been sitting in my living room for over 2 months due to a dealer problem. During the install they cut one of the DV pipes to make it fit and they did it with a reciprocating saw besides, so the connections are jagged and uneven. I know it doesn't seal, and defeats the purpose of using DV, potentially causing CO problems. They also mounted my termination cap on top of my vinyl siding instead of cutting out the siding and mounting to the sheathing. There is no gas connection to the stove yet so no problems except for finishing the job correctly.

    Anyway, I have found an independent licensed installer that will finish/correct the job but he has no access to HHT pipe and will have to use Simpson. If I had access to a 12" section of HHT black DV pipe he would use that and all would be well, but neither the parent Hearth and Home Technologies nor Quadrafire itself has been any help. They show no interest in helping to solve my problem or answer my questions, so I am here looking for help. The new installer is great but has never worked with a Quad before.

    My questions are simple, the first is does anyone know where I can buy a 12" piece of the HHT pipe without of course going through my dealer? The other question is that if I change everything over to Simpson, do I need an adapter at the stove to connect the Simpson pipe? I am told that Simpson pipe won't connect to HHT pipe so it seems logical that the stove connection which takes HHT would need an adapter for Simpson, but I find no mention of this anywhere.

    Thanks for any help!!!

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  2. DAKSY

    DAKSY Patriot Guard Rider Staff Member

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    Use the Simpson Dura-Vent - IF you can get it.
    You may hafta change out ALL the pipe, but Simpson DV is
    approved for your stove...
    Not sure if the cap will still work or not...
    If your installer is going to tackle the entire installation,
    make sure he gets the vinyl siding shield for the cap...
  3. bigfrank

    bigfrank New Member

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    Thanks for the reply. I would gladly change everything over to Simpson, even with the additional cost of replacing everything. I am told the termination cap will have to be changed too, and that is also ok, I want my stove working. I has been darn cold here lately and looking at a stove I can't use is really aggravating.

    But the stumbling block is still whether I need an adapter or not. Simpson doesn't list one and when I checked with them they said ask Quadrafire, which if course I did. When they offered no help I then went to the parent company, HHT, and no help there either. I will never buy any of their products again, their customer support sucks.
  4. DAKSY

    DAKSY Patriot Guard Rider Staff Member

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    I'm willing to bet you don't need an adapter.
    There's not one shown in the install manual & the dv & HHT (SLP) venting
    assemble in the same manner, using male/female twist lock lugs...
    That being said, the cap will probably work, too...
    HHT may tell you no, but we've put the two different pipes together & they
    are pretty much the same fit...
  5. jtp10181

    jtp10181 Minister of Fire

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    You have to use either all simpson pipe or all HHT pipe. The stoves come setup for the simpson pipe by default and to use the HHT pipe you need an SLP-SA adaptor. You just yank out the little inner flue adaptor that comes on the stove and put this new one in. If you push it hard enough the two different pipes will fit together but it violates mfg specs.

    If you have any more questions I can help, we do this stuff every week.

    Also if you really cannot find pipe locally I could ship stuff, but it should not be hard to get either pipe from a local dealer. Try looking on www.fireside.com to see if they have any stores nearby. They could get you new HHT pipe no problem. Also if you do have Quads customer care line you should call them again and give them your serial number off your stove and demand they open a case. Tell them what kind of service you got from your dealer and they should log it all in and forward it to the dealers sales rep. If you do not want to do that you can PM me the dealers info and I can make sure thier sales rep finds out about your concers.
  6. bigfrank

    bigfrank New Member

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    Thanks to both for the help. jtp10181 let me ask some more about what you said. When they "installed" my stove they used the HHT pipe, but changed nothing on the stove itself. This makes me concerned about the adaptor you mention on the stove. The manual doesn't mention any of this so I am at a loss for info.

    How can I tell which adaptor is on the stove? I have a great respect for gas in general and CO in particular. I want this to be safe above all else.

    The new installer can get the Simpson pipe, but Simpson was no help on any adaptor that might or might not be needed. There is also a restocking fee so he wants to be sure he orders the right stuff and nothing more. He wants to save me some money so he has suggested that I try and get the 12" HHT pipe that the dealer butchered, and he will do the install the right way. I also need the SLP-WT-BK wall thimble that the dealer didn't provide.

    The dealer knows I am not happy and talks about coming out to "fix" things but with what I have seen of their work I am really nervous about how it will turn out, including safety. You should see the jagged hole they put in my outside wall with the sawzall. They don't use hole saws, and also provided no blocking around the hole. They had no ladder, and I couldn't communicate with them because of the language barrier. The smart part of me just wants them to walk away and I go with the Simpson, but the extra cost is significant. Fireside has no dealers near me and the only HHT dealer is the one I am having trouble with, so me getting parts seems impossible unless I buy them from you or some other distant place.

    This dealer talked a good game but in retrospect I should have gone with the Lopi Berkshire I wanted from a different place, and that dealer has a great reputation. They were backed up for months because of the pellet stove run around here, but by now I would have had a stove that works. When I contacted HHT and Quadrafire by e-mail to complain and ask questions they had no interest in either.

    I am not even sure the termination cap is the correct one for vinyl siding, since HHT has the vinyl shield built in if you get the right cap.

    I appreciate your help!
  7. jtp10181

    jtp10181 Minister of Fire

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    If they vented off the top of the stove they need to use the SLP-SA to convert the inner flue to the HHT black pipe, otherwise it does not fit right. If they vented off the back it does not matter because there is a more geneirc collar on the rear vent. I don't really thing there is a good way to tell except by fit. As long as you get a good overlap (I think 1-1/2" is spec) on both inner and outer its fine. There is not adaptor to go from one pipe to the other, you are supposed to use all the same type of pipe for the entire vent run.

    Heat & Glo gas stoves can use the same HHT pipe, see if theres any of those dealers around you. http://heatnglo.com/dealerLocator/index.asp
    They might not stock the pipe but could for sure order it. You need an SLP-12-BK I think is the part number.
  8. Fire Bug

    Fire Bug New Member

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    When they offered no help I then went to the parent company, HHT, and no help there either. I will never buy any of their products again, their customer support sucks.quote

    Hi Big Frank,
    Sounds like your just another HHT Satisfied Customer!
    John
  9. bigfrank

    bigfrank New Member

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    jtp10181 - My stove is top vented but even if it were rear vented the collar would be the same. On my Sapphire you swap the collar with the blocking plate if you change the vent location.

    This afternoon I took the piping apart at the stove end to see how it fits. There is at least 1.5" overlap with the collar and it all seems to fit together well. I am not sure what collar I have or where it got changed if it did, but I know my stove was ordered as was the pipe and termination cap, as a package. When the stove got to my house it was still on the pallet and wrapped. The installer didn't change the collar, so is it possible the factory changed it knowing that it was to be used with the HHT pipe?

    Thanks for the Heat & Glo tip. I knew they were part of HHT, and there is a dealer a couple of towns over, but I had ignored them because they only do fireplaces not stoves. But you are correct in that they should be able to get the parts I need. Of course now that the dealer has all the parts including the remote I never got, and wants to make things right, I have a big decision to make. I am not sure his installer knows what "right" actually is, but I suppose things couldn't end up worse than they are now, and I could end up with not having to spend any more money.
  10. bigfrank

    bigfrank New Member

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    Hi John. You know, I started this project at the beginning of Sept., and I am an engineer so I research everything I do, and took 2 months to decide. I started with all the literature and manuals for almost every stove brand, and researched this forum and others. I narrowed things down to 4 stoves, all around 30K BTU, Hampton, Hearthstone, Lopi, and Quadrafire. The only customer service interaction I had was with Hearthstone when I had some questions about their afue. I sent off an e-mail and got a prompt response from an engineer who was extremely helpful.

    The problem I had was 2 fold. No dealers around here had any gas stoves to actually look at, everyone had gone pellet crazy. The other problem was that they were also backed up for anywhere from 1 month to 3 months for installs. The Lopi was the longest, and the Quad was the shortest. After traveling around I actually got to see some of the stoves running. I thought the Lopi had the best looking fire, the Quad was second, Hampton third, and Hearthstone fourth.

    When I took all things into consideration, fire, waiting time, price, and things I researched, I chose the Quad. Too bad I didn't check out their customer service.
  11. Fire Bug

    Fire Bug New Member

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    Hi big Frank,
    I did the exact same thing as you did only we spent the better part of five years looking and gas fireplace inserts first to put in our esisting woodburning fireplace which just wasted money for heat by sending the heat up the flue instead of into the house.
    We looked at them all, in brochures , at the dealers burning displays. We looked at Quadrafire,(Topaz Model), Menodota, Regency, Jotul, Fireplace Extorinare, Woodstock Franklin,(I would recomend),Kozy Heat etc., etc.. The Heat & Glow FB Grand filled our searches with everything we dreamed of,plus one gourgeous, realistic flame pattern, great heat output and the biggest viewing area avaiable.
    After our purchase, we went to five diffrent units from cracking firebrick fireboxes, peeling paint on the firebrick fire box, delayed ignition that almost blew the glass out of the unit on almost eveyone of these units and shook the glass in our patio doors, defecting leaking gas valves and finally, on unit # four we have the problem of banging from the shroud that surrounds our ceramic firebox because of excess,loose, sheetmetal that expands and contracts too much causing the banging. All of these problems where addressd by Heat & Glow and HHT but only through nothing less but sure frustration, aggravation, persitence, and lastly my wife in tears over all of the above problems that they could not seem to correct.
    We are suppose to have our banging number four unit replaced with unit number five hopefully to correct the problems of unit number four, which they can't seeem to correct evern with their "TOP Gun Factory Technicians). Keep your fingers,(and toes crosses for us with this unit). These problems were all varifable and were not just a figment of our imagination.
    We were going to purchase a Heat & Glow Tiarra II propane stove ,(which I loved the looks, features , and all the options of), but my wife and I had decided definitely not since we had soo many problems with the FB Grand Insert. The Tiarra II stove was to replace our Fisher Pa Pa Bear in our rec room downstairs. We went with The Jotul DV600 Firelight II. We had it about four years now and it gets a work out but performs flawlessly.
    HHT prouduces Heat & Glow, Quadrafire, and Heatalator, which are beutiful, realistic, products but their Quality Control Dept.,(IMO), is horrible and if they have a problems they won't admit to it. Its seems like it is the customers fault or their imagination, not a defective product design as the cause of the problem with the unit.
    HHT will listen, but only if scream in their eye and I do mean SCREAM!!!
    I beleive they are the inovators and pioneers of The Direct Vent Technology and I get the sense that they are trying to inprove their market image which I beleive was starting to slip because numerous dealers in my area quit handling HHT products but now they seem to be taking them back on as a product line.
    I do hope they improve on their products Quality Control and problem reconition and correction. Than they would have truly a fine product.
    A company cannot afford to cut corners, especially in todays econonmic envirorment.
    I wish you well, my friend!
    As always, Good luck to ya,
    John
  12. bigfrank

    bigfrank New Member

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    Hi John. Geesh, you have had your hands full. I have had all my problems with the dealer just trying to get a stove installed and working. I hope once I get through this that I don't have any actual problems with the product itself. That would mean more contact with my dealer, which I would like to avoid unless absolutely necessary.

    Take care, and good luck!

    Frank
  13. jtp10181

    jtp10181 Minister of Fire

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    I would just like to interject that the problems Fire Bug has had are not normal problems with those units. We install at least 50-80 FB-IN / FB-GRAND units a year and I have never had any of the major problems he has. I have seen a few slightly delayed ignitions but nothing I would consider dangerous. Also a defective gas valve can happen and would be no reason to replace the entire unit, just put a new valve in.

    bigfrank, all stoves are shipped form the factory with the simpson style collar. There is no way it would have come with the SLP collar. I just reviewed the install manuals and I do see that you have to move the collar when rear venting. I was told you only need it on top vent so I dunno how to answer that one. Maybe you don't really need it at all? 1-1/2" Overlap is spec so it sounds like its safe the way it is.

    Good luck getting your stove installed properly, its a shame when dealers make a product and company look bad for us other dealers.
  14. Fire Bug

    Fire Bug New Member

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    Hi Big Frank & JTP,
    I can assure you that the problems I have incurred with my FB Grand Units are not a figment of my imagination.
    The delayed ignition was verified by every technician HHT and Heat & Glow sent out to look at the units along with the cracked firebrick, peeling paint,( I do have pictures & video tape with sound),delayed ignition, and now banging sheet metal shroud surrounding the firebox.
    The leaking gas valve was discovered by a Heat & Glow Technician with a sniffer and she told me not to use the unit, she will get another unit. She was sent to address the delayed ignition problem. As a matter of fact when she lit the unit, I do believe she soiled her panties!
    I know the other technicians surely soiled their "Tidy Whiteys". I guess the six technicians from HHT,Heat & Glow, and the selling dealer
    must of been smoking the same stuff that gave us all of these halucinations.
    I can assure you, I have more to do than to entertain service people ripping out fireplace insets on my white wool rug just for the hell of it.
    JTP, maybe you can spread the word to HHT and tell them to send me one of those flawless units your distributor supplies your dealer out there in Wisconsin. I sure would appreciate it.
    In the mean time, I will just have to put cotton in my ears.
    Bottom line, Big Frank, I stand by my word HHt & Heat & Glow "Sucks Big Time",(IMO), in the quality control dept. and you could form your own opinion in the customer assistance end of it.
    How many of these units are NG and how many are LP, JTP. It appears the problem units according to the techs are mostly with the Lp units.
    Gotta go! I have to start smoking some more of my magic mushrooms and get ready for my new unit, but I will have to save some for the technian/installer so we both have the same halucinations.
    JTP, I seem to remember your post to a thread, a while back, which you stated you had to return to a couple dozen installs you did of the FB Grand Units of which your customers where having, I believe, sooting problems and excessive white build up inside the fire boxes.
    Your fix,I believe, was to extend the intake pipe from a three or four foot stub all the way to the top of the termination cap. I believe you stated that this corrected the problem but your not sure why. Any how, you said it worked.
    I am sorry, the above statement may have pertained to Heat & Glow Fireplaces not inserts.
    Was this a case of "Poke And Hope"?
    HHT should scrutinize the performance of their dealers better through consumer feedback on their products and dealers after the sale and install.

    Best of luck,
    John
  15. jtp10181

    jtp10181 Minister of Fire

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    I was never saying your problems were not real. I was just stating that is not the "normal" for those products. And yes we did have problems from poor installations, but it was not causing soot. It was causing most noticeable the unit would run for hours and then go our by itself I think due to lack of air flow. Extending the fresh air liner all the way up helped this. A side effect of doing a stubby intake liner is you pull lots of junk from the old flue into the unit and burn it, which causes the white power all over the place. None of this was a problem with the unit itself, but the way we installed them. Yes it does say this is an OK way to install in the manual and many places do it with no problem. We did not have to go back and fix every one of our installs by any means, only a dozen or so out of probably 200+ we installed that way.

    Most units we install are NG but we do also install some on LP. I can't think of any LP "FB" units we have had to go back on multiple times for problems.

    If you were my customer I would order in a new unit and test burn it in the shop on an LP tank for a few hours ad probably also have you come by to verify everything was working as expected and then take it out with an install crew and help install it myself making sure every aspect of the unit and install was 100%. I really wish I could do something more for a lot of customers besides just post advice on here.
  16. bigfrank

    bigfrank New Member

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    jtp10181 and John, certainly the dealer/installer is just as important as the product itself, and can make or break the satisfaction level. This is true for everything from cars to stoves. It is also reasonable that any manufacturer can have a run of problems with some units/designs but again it is the dealer and how he/she handles it that matters most.

    jtp10181, I can tell you that I would feel much more comfortable if you were my dealer. That is my biggest fear because if I do have problems with the unit itself I will again have to deal with the bozo I bought from. I can get the installation taken care of, that just takes throwing more money at the problem, but if the unit fails I am not comfortable things would work out to my satisfaction. This guy has not done anything to breed confidence in his abilities or desire to do things correctly, too many excuses for his "crack" crew who, as I mentioned, cut DV pipe and installed a termination cap on top of my vinyl siding.

    With regard to the collar, I did receive a short simple statement from Quadrafire that I would not need an adaptor to install the Simpson pipe, but they gave no details and never responded to my follow-up on more detail. This is also troubling since during the "kicking tires" phase my dealer stated that he usually uses Simpson, don't know why I got HHT, and he would need to get an adaptor to use the Simpson. I have gotten much more help here than from either the dealer or the company, so both of them are killing my desire to have this product. I really like the looks of this stove, and its top mounted controls, so it is too bad.

    One option I do have is to tell him to just get everything out of my home, since I haven't paid him for anything yet due to the issues. Of course that means I would have to start the product search again, and find something that would vent through the same crooked large hole I have in my walls. I suppose the Simpson adjustable length pipe would help for that situation. My installation is pretty standard, up 2 ft., a 90, and out, but the height of the stove would matter.

    No matter how this turns out I really do appreciate the comments I have received here from jtp10181, John, and Daksy. In case I have to go the "other" route does anyone have an opinion on Lopi, Hearthstone, or Hampton? Those are the brands I can get through someone I KNOW is a reputable dealer and installer.

    Thanks to all!! This is a great forum.
  17. Fire Bug

    Fire Bug New Member

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    Big Frank,
    All of the three different brands you have mentioned appear to be quality companies with quality units. Jotul is also a very good choice along with Woodstock Soapstone Co.. But these are not the only quality companies out there. There are many others.
    If you paid your dealer by credit card, I would call the credit card company and would not pay the dealer rather put the payment in dispute and let the credit card co. hash it out with the dealer for you. This is just a suggestion, but a very effective one at that.
    Jtp, as for my fifth unit which I am suppose to recieve in a few weeks, the unit was suppose to be pulled from my dealers inventory and shipped to HHT Plant in Minesota, inspected, burned, by my contact with HHT concerning my problem with these past units. After the unit is test burned and inspected, it is suppose to be shipped back to my local dealer. This dealer is the same dealer my wife and I purchased our Jotul DV 600 Firelight II from a few years ago and we were very satisfied with their install and customer service.
    When we started looking at the H&G;gas inserts several years ago, they weren't called the FB Grand but the CFX Grand. The dealer we stopped by told us he was back ordered for months on these particular units because every third unit comming off the prodution line had a cracked ceramic firebox and they could not seem to isolate what the problem was.
    The peeling paint problem on the ceramic firebrick fireboxes of the FB Grand Model was a confirmed problem by a HHT Representative that told us that a few thousand of these units ,(and she gave the affected unit serial numbers), came off the line and had a teflon residue left on the fireboxes that weren't properly cleaned and when painted the paint peeled off these units. Guess who had one?
    Lastly, three years ago, when I started having the delayed ignition problems with the unit, I was contacted by a female individual that read of my problems on the Consumer Product Safety Commissions Website.
    She told me they had a home in the Pocono Mtn's of Penna. and had a Tiarra II Propane Stove installed in their Pocono Home and when the unit was turned on, delayed ignition was so great and powerful in force that it blew the glass out of the stove injuring a family member.
    This individual purchased this unit and had it installed by the same dealer that I purchased my unit from and did the install of my unit.
    This person that was involved in this incident was a secretary for a prominent local attorney. I will let you finish the story.
    Maybe, as you say, if all dealers and installers were as consciencious as your self we wouldn't have all these problems.
    I have a 2002 Toyota Tundra Pickup Truck that I bought new. This was my first Toyota Product I ever owned. I absolutely love the truck but will never buy another Toyota Product because of their Customer Service,"Kiss My ASS" Attitude. Good product, Bad Company!
    It is still my firm belief that HHT and it's companies, could use some spit and shine in the Quality Control Dept.
    Are you aware of the internal restructuring of HHT?

    Thanks,
    John
  18. bigfrank

    bigfrank New Member

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    Hi John. I haven't paid the dealer a nickle yet, so no problem.

    We have something else in common. I bought a 2003 Tundra, new, and also love the truck. I also will not buy another Toyota for the same reason you mention. I had the defective gas filler neck and got nothing but the runaround from 2 dealers and Toyota itself. They wanted to charge me $140 to diagnose the problem when the problem was easy to see with the naked eye, so I bought the piece wholesale for $80 and put it in myself.

    Yep, good product, bad company.
  19. Fire Bug

    Fire Bug New Member

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    Amen, Big Frank!

    John
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