Question about chain. Go with safety or not?

[Mr. Jones]

I've got an old 015AV stihl saw I inherited. I've never tried a non safety chain. I was just curious how much faster these are, and is the risk worth the reward? This is a small saw, and I'm not really too worried about kick back. I can almost one hand it while up in the trees, but that's only a last resort. I probably woundn't try it on a larger torquey saw. What say you?

I've also heard of chains that supposedly last 3x as long without having to sharpen. Is there really such a thing? If so, how much do they run? Thanks.

 

[pen]

First, I've only run a safety chain once, I wasn't impressed and wouldn't put it on a saw I own. For the novice, it's all fine and well but for anyone with a good wit about themselves, and understand what it takes to be safe when operating a saw, I just can't see the purpose, and the difference is noticeable.

Chains that last a long-long while may be the carbide tipped ones. I have a friend that has run them and loves them. I have never personally tried it out however.

 

[Wisneaky]

If your new to using a saw or don't use a saw much than use one. If not than don't. Non safety chains cut much faster.

Since you think you can one hand a saw I'd recommend you stay with the safety chain until that mindset changes.

 

[highanddryinco]

If you're cutting mostly softwood like pine and aspen like we run into here in CO, safety chain is probably fine. I just threw my first "yellow" chain on the 20" 029 and really didn't pick up a big gain in cut speed. In all fairness though, the yellow was right out of the box. My normal chains I err toward taking the rakers down probably a little more than I should. They throw nice chips.
On a side note, I just picked up that little 180C listed in my signature a couple of weeks ago. One year old with a pretty beat up original chain. I gave $125 in a CL parking lot exchange, drove to the mountain, gave each tooth three strokes, and started cutting. Holy crap, that skinny little .043 micro picco chain is a cutting son of a gun! Could be my new favorite saw. (Certainly my newest.)

 

[TreePointer]

Some safety chain (aka low-kickback chain) cuts much like regular chain, so it's possible you won't notice a difference in speed. An example is Stihl RS vs Stihl RS3 (low-kickback) in 3/8 pitch for larger saws.

The greater speed difference I often encounter is switching from semi-chisel chain to full chisel chain. You likely will notice that full chisel chain is a tad more "grabby," so even low-kickback versions of this chain will still grab more than semi-chisel chain. You get used to it rather quickly. Note that it's sometimes difficult to find full chisel chain in the pitch commonly found small displacement saws like yours.

When operating a top handle saw up in a tree, you want smooth cutting in the kerf kerf; so full chisel chain with extra low rakers is not the best idea.

 

[Jon1270]

The big difference in performance shows up when cutting with the tight-radiused nose of the bar, whether plunge cutting or bucking wood that's larger than the bar is long. In smaller-diameter wood where the work can be done along the straightish sections of the bar, safety chain performs similarly to non-safety.

The larger rakers of safety chain can sometimes make hand sharpening more difficult, especially after it's been sharpened enough to need the rakers lowered.

 

[nola mike]

The big difference in performance shows up when cutting with the tight-radiused nose of the bar, whether plunge cutting or bucking wood that's larger than the bar is long.

Isn't that also where the safety chain would be of most benefit (wrt kickback?)

 

[Jon1270]

Isn't that also where the safety chain would be of most benefit (wrt kickback?)

Yes, that's the way safety chain works, i.e. it reduces the size of the bite that the teeth can take as they go around the nose of the bar. That both slows the cut in that area of the bar, and makes the forces that cause kickback smaller and easier to control.

 

[claydogg84]

Not all safety chains are created equal. Husqvarna safety chains have obnoxious rakers that can't possible be taken down. Stihl safety chains are not quite as bad. I would get yourself comfortable with the saw using a safety chain first and once it's worn out switch to a yellow.

 

[Mr. Jones]

I'm having problems getting the raker shaved down. Making saw dust, and actually smoking while half way through a large log. I sharpened the cutters by hand. I've tried, basically sawing back and forth hard, and don't notice a difference in height on the rakers, like it's harder than my file. I found another chain, but it's rakers looked a little low. Anywho, It cut better, but jammed the saw more often when letting off the gas.

For the most part, it works good enough to get the job done while sawing normal, but when I have a few large stumps left over that I couldn't split with knots going every which way, I have to try and cut with the grain, and it just doesn't like to cut that way. It works, but takes half a tank of gas and ten min or longer to get through that way. It's either that, or throw those away. I hate to throw away perfectly good wood, since I don't have a big spitter.

 

[Jon1270]

I've tried, basically sawing back and forth hard, and don't notice a difference in height on the rakers, like it's harder than my file.

FWIW, files are not metal abrasives, they are a series of small blades that cut only in one direction. Holding the file handle, push away from you to cut and pick the file up on the back-stroke. (They do get dull, though, and need to be replaced.)

For the most part, it works good enough to get the job done while sawing normal, but when I have a few large stumps left over that I couldn't split with knots going every which way, I have to try and cut with the grain, and it just doesn't like to cut that way. It works, but takes half a tank of gas and ten min or longer to get through that way.

Try cutting with the bar parallel to the grain, which lifts off long shavings of wood and is colloquially called "noodling." Ripping with the bar perpendicular to the grain, as I suspect you're doing, is much more difficult.

Husqvarna safety chains have obnoxious rakers that can't possible be taken down

Guessing you're thinking of the Oregon Vanguard type with the bent-over rakers, which is hands-down my least favorite chain ever.

 

[claydogg84]

Guessing you're thinking of the Oregon Vanguard type with the bent-over rakers, which is hands-down my least favorite chain ever.

Yup, bent over rakers but it was in fact a Husqvarna labeled chain.

 

[Jags]

I'm having problems getting the raker shaved down.

My new favorite raker tool is a dremel with a sanding drum on it. Very easy to maintain a similar shape to the original raker and fast. Note: this is for Stihl full chisel chain. Fancy raker shapes need not apply.

 

[Jon1270]

Yup, bent over rakers but it was in fact a Husqvarna labeled chain.

Yep, Oregon made Husky's chain for a long time. I'm not sure whether they still do.

 

[iamlucky13]

Yup, bent over rakers but it was in fact a Husqvarna labeled chain.

I had a tour of the Oregon Cutting Systems factory in Portland quite a few years back for one of my engineering classes. They told us that nearly all of the saw-chain in the world that wasn't branded Stihl was made by Oregon, regardless of what brand was on it.

The machines that actually made the chain were really interesting - probably 30-40 foot long mazes of intricate little mechanisms feeding the pieces from hoppers down into a tray and keeping them lined up until reaching the point where the pins were driven through... over and over and over again all day.

 

[Jo191145]

I have a 550xp 18" bar. The standard safety chain is not very impressive at all. Husky and Oregon make more aggressive style chains for it and they are an improvement. It wasn't till I tried the Stihl Rapid Cut chains that the saw came alive.
They sure do seem to hold an edge much longer too. From everything I've read the more aggressive chains should dull fastest. That's not been my expierience by a long shot.

 

[Wisneaky]

I have a 550xp 18" bar. The standard safety chain is not very impressive at all. Husky and Oregon make more aggressive style chains for it and they are an improvement. It wasn't till I tried the Stihl Rapid Cut chains that the saw came alive.
They sure do seem to hold an edge much longer too. From everything I've read the more aggressive chains should dull fastest. That's not been my expierience by a long shot.

You should try a Carlton chain.

 

[Jon1270]

It wasn't till I tried the Stihl Rapid Cut chains that the saw came alive.

I think we have to be careful of confirmation bias when talking about this stuff. There are so many variables in play that determine whether a saw performs well, that it's easy to "see" the results one expects to see.

Stihl's marketing terminology plays this psychological violin rather well. The "Rapid" designation just means it's a full-size chain, as opposed to the smaller-toothed, thinner-kerfed "Picco" chains meant for use with small powerheads. So, this word that sounds like it has to do with speed actually has nothing to do with speed; it's telling you about size.

In a further perversion, Stihl uses words that normally describe size to talk about cutter shape. A chain with chisel teeth is "Super." One with semi-chisel teeth is "Micro."

From everything I've read the more aggressive chains should dull fastest

Even categorizing chains by how "aggressive" they are is too loosey-goosey and handwavey for my taste. There is no single linear scale to describe how chains perform in all situations. Real variables are tooth shape, raker height, presence or absence and shape of safety bumpers, skip pattern, pitch, metallurgical properties of the steel, grind angles and the skill and care of the last person to sharpen. All else being equal, chisel teeth do dull faster than semi-chisel, but all else is rarely equal.

 

[Jo191145]

I think we have to be careful of confirmation bias when talking about this stuff. There are so many variables in play that determine whether a saw performs well, that it's easy to "see" the results one expects to see.

Stihl's marketing terminology plays this psychological violin rather well. The "Rapid" designation just means it's a full-size chain, as opposed to the smaller-toothed, thinner-kerfed "Picco" chains meant for use with small powerheads. So, this word that sounds like it has to do with speed actually has nothing to do with speed; it's telling you about size.

In a further perversion, Stihl uses words that normally describe size to talk about cutter shape. A chain with chisel teeth is "Super." One with semi-chisel teeth is "Micro."



Even categorizing chains by how "aggressive" they are is too loosey-goosey and handwavey for my taste. There is no single linear scale to describe how chains perform in all situations. Real variables are tooth shape, raker height, presence or absence and shape of safety bumpers, skip pattern, pitch, metallurgical properties of the steel, grind angles and the skill and care of the last person to sharpen. All else being equal, chisel teeth do dull faster than semi-chisel, but all else is rarely equal.

You've come to the conclusion I bought a Husqvarna 550xp because I'm a slave to Stihls marketing strategies? That's rich.

 

[Jon1270]

You've come to the conclusion I bought a Husqvarna 550xp because I'm a slave to Stihls marketing strategies? That's rich.

I might reply to this if I could make any sense of it.

 

[claydogg84]

I might reply to this if I could make any sense of it.

I'm with you. I've got no idea where he got that from.

 

[Jo191145]

It's rea

I might reply to this if I could make any sense of it.

Very simple really. Your response to my statement that Stihl RC chains work best on my 550 husky was a diatribe about confirmation bias and slick marketing practices by Stihl. Flat out implying that my opinion is invalid because I'm too stupid to realize what works and what doesn't. In your opinion I think they work better because Stihl markets them to sound as if they work better.
In that context the fact I bought a husky but am a victim of Stihls marketing strategy seems a little ridiculous doesn't it.
FWIW yes, all my previous saws were made by Stihl. I cannot recall ever buying an RC chain for them though. Previously never thought about such things much.

You are free to discount my opinion just as I am free to call you out on it.

The reason I ended up with RC chains on the husky is I wasn't satisfied with the performance of the standard semi chisel safety chains husky/Oregon make for the saw. Nor the full chisel Oregon chains either.
Besides all the particulars of tooth and raker variations which of course are important, the larger Kerf cut by the RC,s seem to be a major help in my situation. The standard thinner kerf husky chains have a tendency to fill up in deep cuts bogging the chain down. It's not hard to get enough chips between the bar and chain to lock it up entirely. A rare problem on all my Stihls. A common occurrence on my husky with standard factory chains.
The thicker kerf also helps negate bar binding when I make a miscalculation. I'm sure that happens to no one else but me. Thanks.

 

[Jon1270]

Oh, okay.

You are free to discount my opinion

On the contrary, I wasn't dismissive of your opinion; I have no interest in telling anyone what they should prefer. I was critical of your rhetoric, but I didn't mean it as a personal attack. I apologize for having offended you.

 

[Jo191145]

Oh, okay.



On the contrary, I wasn't dismissive of your opinion; I have no interest in telling anyone what they should prefer. I was critical of your rhetoric, but I didn't mean it as a personal attack. I apologize for having offended you.

And I apologize for being attitudinal with you. My original post was meant as no more of an opinion that if what you have isn't working dont be afraid to try something different.
That being said I doubt there's much the OP can or perhaps should do to make his saw work better. Noodling with a pruner is just asking too much sometimes.