Question of the day

[elkimmeg]

The question is do you think the state of Ma should adopt the 1990 EPA clean air woodstoves act?

I guess that when I was at the state debating new codes adoption, someone there had a direct line to one of the major govenor canidates. I received an email from the chief policy director of that canidate, asking me about this enviormentally friendly regs.

I hope this will lead to open discussion pros/cons and expand beyond just wood stoves, for enviormently friendly alternatives..

Here is a chance some poster/member of hearth.com may be able to shape a greener enviorment. one state at a time

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Shure! why not? The east coast states need to get on board with clean air. 15 years ago, there was always a nasty smog covering boulder and surrounding cities. It looked gross. Now that cloud of crap is gone. This state adopted that back in 90'. Not to mention it has the added benifit of having efficient stoves. Of course, one thing i dont believe coal appliances will comply, i might be wrong on that. I dont realy see any cons because the people who have the old polluters will be grandfathered in, and all new stove will have to meet the new requirements. The con i guess would be that any one who wants to sell a old stove has a worthless appliance.

 

[elkimmeg]

The con i guess would be that any one who wants to sell a old stove has a worthless appliance.

That's the one con this bill if passed,, would eliminate.. removal of old polluters. There is still EPA federal money available
One as a state, could work with manufactures to initiate rebates for swap outs. The state could offer a tax credit. All possible ways or incentives to promote swaping to cleaner burning. I am sure if Ma took the initative other New England state may follow suit.. I am also sure that a manufacturer like Jotul, can offer a rebate with the chance to sell thousands of additional stoves. Especially Jotul having N America HQ residing only a few miles away? I am sure that if Jotul did this others would fall in line.

 

[suematteva]

Yes..Lived in Phoenix in 94,95 and they had significant smog problems in the fall due to wood smoke. MSG is dead on. Last 10 have been back in New England/Quebec and it has gotten worse. Look at any valley on clear winter mornings...I like a pinch of woodsmoke to tickle the senses but it is a problem..The fuel scare has brought alot of the old battle wagon stoves back into use. Combine with not properly seasoned wood?

Elk how will this effect the outdoor furnace?

 

[babalu87]

Wood that isnt seasoned properly is a BIG part of the issue as well and there is no way to regulate that.

Give me one of those old "polluters" and a pile of nice dry wood over a new and improved box with a pile of green wood.

With that being said why cant they offer a buyback program (they do it with guns) to help offset the costs associated with the purchase of a more efficient stove?
I would bet most people burning wood to keep the house warm arent doing it because they have a spare $2000 to spend on a new stove because the Gubmmit told them to.

I'm all for it in Mass when they want to give me some money back for my stove and chimney.
Mass was more than willing to shell out some tax breaks/refunds to those who installed efficient windows/doors and such to reduce their oil consumption yet they arent willing to give a dime to the woodburners?

 

[elkimmeg]

Naturally there are various degrees of not good decent late 80 stoves vs mid 70's stoves All legal existing stoves are grandfathered for use in their current location and setup. What leglislation would do is take that old clunker out of existance for good and not have it end up poluting from someone's else's home.

Out door wood boilers are another subject that can be addressed. I think baby steps may have to be taken first before giant ones later. I would love to see guidelines. like 5 acres required and no closer than 750 Ft from any neighboring home. LETS FACE IT HOW HAPPY WILL A CLUSTER NEIBHBORHOOD BE WITH ONE SITTING 10' AWAY FROM 3 HOMES?

 

[webbie]

The question is do you think the state of Ma should adopt the 1990 EPA clean air woodstoves act?

This is a bit confusing. All the EPA regs relate only to manufacturers - NOT to the public or consumer. They state that stoves manufactured after a certain date must comply....with exceptions.

I have a feeling you are asking for a NEW law, one that states that no uncertified stove can be used or installed. I would be against this if this is what you mean.

The idea of stove switchout programs is a good one....gets rid of the old ones.

I'd say targeting the outdoor boilers (new sales) would be a first good step. Older stoves are already being replaced.

Or, at least conduct some surveys and find out how many old stoves are out there and how they are used, etc.-

 

[elkimmeg]

Ok similar to WA or Co.or OR from this day forward all solid fuel wood burning stoves installed must meets 63% effeciency or no more tha 4.2 grams per hour polutants I should lookup that number so the law mirrors the EPA stove regs like it does in other state.
With that blanket statement it would eliminate all outdoor boilers that cannot meet EPA requirements. Either come up witha stove that burns clean or you can not sell or install it in MA. I sure this would have to be fine tuned due to the larger firebox but effectively it could be to force clean burning

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

no out door boilers here, and what difference does it make when you go buy a new stove, you cant purchase a smoke hog? There is no need for a buy back program, just use your current stove untill its worn out. After that, buy a epa stove. It doesnt have to be new, you can find used stoves that are epa reasonably cheap, hell for that matter if you realy wanted to pinch a penny you could buy the home cheapo special. The air quality in your neighborhood would increase substantially, and you would save your wood. Win win situation. Unfortuantly it takes government to make these things happen, and this is because most people arent educated enough to know what there getting. Of course that doesnt incude our readers and members at hearth.com

 

[webbie]

Ok similar to WA or Co.or OR from this day forward all solid fuel wood burning stoves installed must meets 63% effeciency or no more tha 4.2 grams per hour polutants I should lookup that number so the law mirrors the EPA stove regs like it does in other state.
With that blanket statement it would eliminate all outdoor boilers that cannot meet EPA requirements. Either come up witha stove that burns clean or you can not sell or install it in MA. I sure this would have to be fine tuned due to the larger firebox but effectively it could be to force clean burning

You probably know how these laws look when they are finished....

The laws usually say "within a residence", so outdoor boilers get away with it. They say they are no different than outdoor burning (allowed in some areas).

If you really want to save the most energy, you will make open fireplaces illegal since they are putting the most BTU's up the chimney!

So, these codes or laws usually have to narrowly define things like "room heaters". My point is that you don't want to do this as a "quickie" and copy other states. Those states often have unique problems because of stagnant air masses in valleys.

We all want things to get better, but the question is exactly how to do it. Sometimes education is the best way to spend money instead of laws. Again, I say start with outdoor boilers.....and fireplaces (I'll bet the fireplace lobby beats you!) and then perhaps start small with saying that IN NEW CONSTRUCTION or NEW INSTALLATIONS EPA regs must apply.

Washington and Oregon studied these things for years - and Mass. should be prepared to study it and get input from the trade orgs, standards orgs and manufacturers before taking any action.

Most important to me is whether there is even a problem and how big it is.....

 

[webbie]

Our trade org has government liason people who are very experienced with this stuff. If you want to take this on, I can put you in touch with the right people for at least some background and ideas.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

The problem was very obvious here. Its literaly night and day compared to what it used to be like, and yes craig, you hit the nail on the head, open fireplaces should be illeagle. People here griped at first that they coulndt install one, but most of these people are transplants from southern states (myself included) and dont understant that they are realy air conditioners. Open fireplaces have no business in cold climates where they could be regualry used. Technology is a good thing.

 

[Shane]

I read somewhere that in Grand Junction Colorado that no non-epa stoves may be installed. There are no-burn days for non-epa rated stoves & that if you sell a home in Grand Junction and it has a stove not EPA rated it must be replaced with an EPA rated stove or be permanantly removed from the home. Anyone from Colorado that can verify this?

 

[webbie]

Ok similar to WA or Co.or OR from this day forward all solid fuel wood burning stoves installed must meets 63% effeciency or no more tha 4.2 grams per hour polutants I should lookup that number so the law mirrors the EPA stove regs like it does in other state.
With that blanket statement it would eliminate all outdoor boilers that cannot meet EPA requirements. Either come up witha stove that burns clean or you can not sell or install it in MA. I sure this would have to be fine tuned due to the larger firebox but effectively it could be to force clean burning

It will be difficult to have one size fits all, because boilers can have fireboxes 10X the size. EPA does not test them, as the use of them is not built into the standards. This means you then have to state a test method and certify labs - a very long process.

I think you are much better addressing the items separately.
Outdoor Boilers (under some kind of existing laws for pollution, outdoor burning or nuisance?)

Space Heaters - Wood
Fireplaces - Wood
Central Heaters - Wood

There will always be situations that fall through the cracks, but the main idea is to head in the right direction.

As I said, get ready for a long term effort. This stuff is like inventing...the idea is the easy part.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

The entire state has not adopted the same guidlines as the front range. Grand junction is one of the few towns that has the same rules as the front range. The stove doenst become obsolete untill you take it off the flue. In otherwords, techincly you cant remove the flue for any reason. But no one follows that. On the otherhand, if you wanted to remove the stove and move it to a different location in the house you cant do that, that would require a permit and they wouldnt allow it. Most of the western half of the state is unpopulated and has a extremely low population density, there arent any rules for the majority of the western slope.

 

[elkimmeg]

My point is to have laws in place so that it does not become an issue as it did in other states We do have un healthy air alerts I do bleieve there are valleys in our state that could surcome to localized smoke if pushed to the limit
But this is a discussion and pro /con is what needs to be voiced..

In the end it might only be brought forward as a campaign issue from a guy that does not win. I think we all win if it becomes an issue Once on the radar screen discussion and education can occure. I think it needs to be discussed better, now than when problems arrise. Once its out of the bag pretty hard gaining control in that situation.