Ready to Join The Gang - Time For a Wood Stove!

[Log Splitter]

(just realized how long this was! If you don't want to read, check the TLDR summary at bottom)

Hello gang. I've been lurking for a while, and appreciate all of the useful information these forums have to offer. Here's my story:

I grew up in NY, about an hour North of NYC. Once I graduated college, I moved down to Florida. 6 years later, we're back in New York, and this is the first time we'll be here as home owners during a winter!

My house is currently heated through oil and forced air. It's a 1200 sq ft home with an unfinished basement. Not important to focus on heating the basement, but rather the upstairs living area. We currently have a fireplace located at one end of the home where the living room/dining room/kitchen are all relatively open to each other. Then a long hallway, and then the 3 beds and bathroom. Standard raised ranch type layout.

DIMENSIONS:
The opening for my masonry fireplace now is 42" wide by 31" high. The bottom depth is 24.5". The rear high is 15" and width is 28". My current hearth is a little over 16". The chimney runs throughout the exterior of the house. Would need a liner to run from stove up the chimney.

We just did a major tree clearing in our backyard, so we're pretty set with wood. Much of it will need to season for next year, but we should have close to enough to work for this year.

Past records indicate this house goes through 800-1000 gallons per winter.

Here is what I'd like to be able to do:

1. Heat the house exclusively through wood burning. Either a stand alone stove or a wood burning insert.
2. Be large enough to last 6-8 hours through the night, and be ready to reload in the morning.
3. Wife would prefer insert over standalone, but if price or effectiveness are steeply in favor of standalone, she can be swayed. We want a large glass door to be able to see the fire, and hopefully hear the crackle/pops to enhance the ambiance. Also would prefer to not have to deal with a loud obnoxious fan 24/7 if possible.

And finally, I went around to some local places today. Most seemed quite a bit more expensive than what people here on the forums talk about. I'd say about 20% higher. So here are those questions:

a. Do you buy locally, or order online?
b. And if you do buy locally, do you have them install, or find someone else to install? Most of these guys seem to be quoting install (including install materials) around $2500-$3000, where they itemize as half material, half labor.

I'd say my overall budget for this project is $5k. I anticipated spending quite a bit less than that at first, but after install costs came into the picture, I had to re-assess.

I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this, specifically about standalone vs insert, cubic feet, where to buy, and who to have install.

Any an all advice and criticism would be appreciated.

Thanks!

*********************
TLDR: First winter as homeowner in NY. Have current ineffective fireplace. Want a stove of some sort. Budget is $5k, but I had planned to spend quite a bit less. House is 1200 sq ft, not insulated well. 800-1000 gallons of oil yearly in a forced air system. Want to burn wood as exclusive source of heat. Want a nice large glass door, and to be able to last 6-8 hours unmanned. Dimensions of fireplace listed above.

 

[begreen]

Welcome. You'll find the gamut of installs here from having a pro or stove dealer install to a complete DIY. To easily keep within budget a freestanding stove in the fireplace connected to an insulated liner would be first suggestion. Looks like an Englander 30NC could squeak in there. For an insert the smaller Englander 13NCi is worth considering.

Run the furnace a couple times a day in very cold weather to exercise it and keep pipes from freezing.

 

[Log Splitter]

This is a smaller fireplace? From some other things I've seen, I actually thought it was above average size. Did you see the dimensions I posted?

I'm completely guessing and probably totally wrong though

Just looked at the 13NCi, and the insert's cover without some sort of mod is only 30" and won't cover the entire fireplace top to bottom. I'll have to remeasure to make sure, but from what I remember, if anything, was probably closer to 32".

Also, is that wood burning stove too big? The needed to be heated area is only 1200 sq ft. Does this become inefficient overkill?

And random, but there's a place going out of business near us. One of the only inserts they have left is the Enerzone 1.8 insert. Don't know if it's a good deal, but on sale for $950.

 

[begreen]

The 30NC is a bit oversized for a well-insulated 1200 sq ft house in say southern NJ, but not for a poorly insulated house in upstate NY. The larger size will help extend the burn time. It doesn't need to be filled to the gills for a good long fire. Otherwise the smaller 13NC freestanding is an option or a metal strip painted back could be added to the insert surround to make up the space. The Enerzone would work well. That is a great price if new. It's made by SBI, same mfg. as Osburn and Drolet stoves.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I'll be unpopular, but I'd spend money on insulating and air sealing first. It was last on my list and if I'd known the difference it would make, it would have been first. Less noise, less wood burnt, more stable house temps.... Just to name a few benefits.

 

[kennyp2339]

go to Fire Comfort in Goshen NY, great show room, knowledgeable staff, and decent prices

 

[Log Splitter]

The 30NC is a bit oversized for a well-insulated 1200 sq ft house in say southern NJ, but not for a poorly insulated house in upstate NY. The larger size will help extend the burn time. It doesn't need to be filled to the gills for a good long fire. Otherwise the smaller 13NC freestanding is an option or a metal strip painted back could be added to the insert surround to make up the space. The Enerzone would work well. That is a great price if new. It's made by SBI, same mfg. as Osburn and Drolet stoves.

Yes, the Enerzone insert is new. Their "normal" sale price was $1,899, but their showroom is closing and apparently turning into a training center. It's 50% off so $950+tax. But isn't this a far cry from what something like the 30NC or the 13NCi could produce?

I'll be unpopular, but I'd spend money on insulating and air sealing first. It was last on my list and if I'd known the difference it would make, it would have been first. Less noise, less wood burnt, more stable house temps.... Just to name a few benefits.

Good points. It's always tough to look at the big picture first even though it's the logical route!

go to Fire Comfort in Goshen NY, great show room, knowledgeable staff, and decent prices

I'm in Poughkeepsie, so probably about an hour away. I'll have to add it to the list! These forums are great, but I'd like to be able to talk to some people in person about what I'm looking for.

 

[begreen]

Yes, the Enerzone insert is new. Their "normal" sale price was $1,899, but their showroom is closing and apparently turning into a training center. It's 50% off so $950+tax. But isn't this a far cry from what something like the 30NC or the 13NCi could produce?

Same sized firebox as the Englander 13NCi. The difference is that it is a shallower, wider firebox which makes it an E/W loader. It's a well made unit and SBI makes a good stove. For sure that is a great price.

 

[mol1jb]

I'll be unpopular, but I'd spend money on insulating and air sealing first. It was last on my list and if I'd known the difference it would make, it would have been first. Less noise, less wood burnt, more stable house temps.... Just to name a few benefits.

I would have to agree with Limestone. Last year when I moved into my 1200sqft ranch in central IL I said we are not getting a stove until we insulate this place first. It is a small price to pay for a great yearly return. And usually attic insulating is easily DIY. Now after one winter of seeing what our heat demands actually are I can size our stove to the demands we need with out heating us out of the living room. I am currently installing our Pacific Energy Super 27 (2.0cuft stove).

Also if you feel comfortable with your knowledge of stoves/inserts, you can find great deals buying used. I got our Super 27 used for 1/3 of what it is new. And they barely burned in it. I had to drive 3 hours to pick it up but that is worth the money saved for me.

 

[Log Splitter]

Same sized firebox as the Englander 13NCi. The difference is that it is a shallower, wider firebox which makes it an E/W loader. It's a well made unit and SBI makes a good stove. For sure that is a great price.

Hmm, I guess I'm a little confused. So the volume space of the box isn't the quantifying factor in the "size" of the box, but it's rather just the left/right size? I would think that a higher volume box and all other factors considered would produce more heat, no?

And just to double check, you think a box of this size would be adequate to reach down the hall to the bedrooms of an older, poorly insulated 1200 sq ft home? Would the Englander insert at a similar price make more sense? Seems like they're maybe $100 more and can be bought at Home Depot.

Sorry if the questions are getting redundant! Also, with a standard external chimney, is there a ballpark estimate between installs and install materials? I thought the $3,000 price I was quoted was a bit high...

 

[begreen]

The 13NCi and the Enerzone 1.8 are both 1.8 cu ft stoves. The volume is the same but the inside dimensions of the fireboxes vary. One is a more square firebox than the other. The 30NC firebox is almost twice as large. You can get more heat out of the larger firebox if you ran it wide open, but if you throttle it back you get a longer burn time (more fuel reserves).

Installation prices are going to vary depending on the materials used, what's included and the labor done. A top of the line heavy duty liner can cost twice what a basic lightweight liner costs. $3K does sound high unless there are confounding factors like height, roof pitch, whether tiles need to be busted out, liner quality and insulation, blockoff plate building, etc.. Maybe get some competitive quotes from certified sweeps in your area.

www.csia.org

 

[Ashful]

This is a smaller fireplace?

That's a matter of perspective. From here, I'd say, yes.

If going the DIY route, you could easily do a pretty nice stove or insert with liner for less than $5k, and that doesn't limit your choice of stoves. Involving a pro, you'll probably be closer to $6k for the same. Going with a more budget-minded stove could still keep you under $5k, even with a pro install.

Poughkeepsie has a 10 year average of 6638 HDD's per year. You're running 900 gal / 1200 sq.ft., or 0.75 gal/sq.ft. Heating oil is around 140,000 BTU/gal, so assuming you're furnace is around 85% efficient, you're running about 13.45 BTU/HDD/sq.ft. That puts you around the 64th (eyeballing) percentile for energy use, among homes in the northeast, midwest, and west, as of 1997 survey.

So the advice to do some air sealing is good, but I'd do this in tandem with, not in lieu of installing a stove today. No reason one activity should interfere with the other.

 

[Ashful]

Hmm, I guess I'm a little confused. So the volume space of the box isn't the quantifying factor in the "size" of the box, but it's rather just the left/right size? I would think that a higher volume box and all other factors considered would produce more heat, no?

All else equal, volume dictates burn time at a given heat output level. The rate of heat transfer is mostly dependent on surface area and surface temperature, with area being only partially related to volume, all else being equal.

 

[Rearscreen]

Alternative could be a wood burning EPA approved furnace.

 

[Woody Stover]

They describe the Enerzone blower as "ultra-quiet" but I don't even like my computer fans so I prefer free-standing stoves. And the feeling of radiant heat off the box as you sit in the living room can't be beat. If you get a shallow, wide stove you might be able to fit it on the hearth without alterations. If your attic insulation is poor, you will reap HUGE benefits in heat retention by beefing it up, and it's easy to do.

 

[Rearscreen]

Woody Stover is right, you can't beat the feeling of radiant. I believe there are different degrees of radiant warmth. Sometimes it can be too much, take the feeling of the sun in the last 15 years for example. But sit in front of my soapstone even if the room temp is cool...ahhhh
I'm not a fan (no pun intended) of hot air furnaces, but for 2 to 5 grand Log Splitter could heat with wood replacing the oil fired burner.

 

[Log Splitter]

Thanks to all for the suggestions and advice.

I went to a shop today where the owner was present. Has owned a fireplace shop for the past 39 years. He seemed to know his stuff. However, many of the things he said were a bit of a contrast from what I've been reading here.

1. He didn't feel there was a discernable difference between the heat provided by a 3 cubic foot stove vs a 3 cubic foot insert. Both would be functionally the same in regards to their ability to heat.

2. He also said whether I went 1.8 cubic feet or 3.5 cubic feet, it's more about burn time then square footage reached. Ashful seemed to share the same thoughts in one of his previous responses. He said however I would likely struggle to keep the entire upstairs (1200 sq ft) warm if it was not totally open. Once you get into hallways and additional rooms, your issues are more about airflow then they are about heat being given off by your box.

3. Had lots of options. After explaining what I was looking for, including size of home, wife approval (big glass opening), he pointed me towards the Jotul C 450.
I'm curious to hear the rebuttals to these, specifically points 1 & 2.

 

[begreen]

Thanks to all for the suggestions and advice.

I went to a shop today where the owner was present. Has owned a fireplace shop for the past 39 years. He seemed to know his stuff. However, many of the things he said were a bit of a contrast from what I've been reading here.

1. He didn't feel there was a discernable difference between the heat provided by a 3 cubic foot stove vs a 3 cubic foot insert. Both would be functionally the same in regards to their ability to heat.

2. He also said whether I went 1.8 cubic feet or 3.5 cubic feet, it's more about burn time then square footage reached. Ashful seemed to share the same thoughts in one of his previous responses. He said however I would likely struggle to keep the entire upstairs (1200 sq ft) warm if it was not totally open. Once you get into hallways and additional rooms, your issues are more about airflow then they are about heat being given off by your box.

3. Had lots of options. After explaining what I was looking for, including size of home, wife approval (big glass opening), he pointed me towards the Jotul C 450.
I'm curious to hear the rebuttals to these, specifically points 1 & 2.

Sounds like good advice so far.
1) Technically correct, but the insert will need a blower to convect most of the heat and there will be losses to the masonry surrounding the insert cabinet. The more the stove sticks out in the room the better it will heat without the blower running.
2) As noted in my second post #4. Burn time will be relative to the air you give the fire. More air, hotter stove, shorter burn time. You will need extra horsepower to quickly raise temps in the cold weather that NY sees. For a 1.8 cu ft stove figure about a 4-6 hr burn time when pushing the stove hard and 7-8hrs when cruising at a lower temp with the room fully warmed up.
3) The C450 is a good insert but no larger and much more expensive. The Enerzone is a tad larger and a much better value. But if you like the look of the Jotul better and have the budget for it and a full liner plus block-off then go for it.

 

[Log Splitter]

3) The C450 is a good insert but no larger and much more expensive. The Enerzone is a tad larger and a much better value. But if you like the look of the Jotul better and have the budget for it and a full liner plus block-off then go for it.

Is the block off something standard that most places install, or is it something specific you have to ask them to do?

And you really got me thinking now! I would probably go with the Jotul 550 over the 450 for only a couple hundred more. After looking at it though, if firebox is nearly identical, why is the 550 rated to heat a large sq footage?

Maybe as my first stove it would simply make sense to see if I didn't sleep too long on that Enerzone from the place going out of business, grab it, and find someone else to do the install...

 

[gregbesia]

Hi and welcome to the forum. I think this will be our 8 th winter using Englander 13 insert. We have a one story 1200sq ft ranch in CT. That insert it's not bad , we saved lots of money versus using oil. My 2 biggest dislikes are: no overnight burn ( I always have to start new fire in the morning with newspaper and kindling) , shallow firebox. Please do yourself a favor and do not go entirely for looks. Whatever you choose to buy ,make sure you can load the wood straight in ,aka NS. In my insert I can load only sideways (EW) and this limits the capacity of the stove. Wood is always falling down on the glass creating mess when the door is opened. Remember that you're buying for long haul , so take your time picking something with ease of use/ looks that you're happy with. As a side note: Englander is a great American company with the customer service that slowly disappears everywhere else.

 

[Log Splitter]

Hi and welcome to the forum. I think this will be our 8 th winter using Englander 13 insert. We have a one story 1200sq ft ranch in CT. That insert it's not bad , we saved lots of money versus using oil. My 2 biggest dislikes are: no overnight burn ( I always have to start new fire in the morning with newspaper and kindling) , shallow firebox. Please do yourself a favor and do not go entirely for looks. Whatever you choose to buy ,make sure you can load the wood straight in ,aka NS. In my insert I can load only sideways (EW) and this limits the capacity of the stove. Wood is always falling down on the glass creating mess when the door is opened. Remember that you're buying for long haul , so take your time picking something with ease of use/ looks that you're happy with. As a side note: Englander is a great American company with the customer service that slowly disappears everywhere else.

Thanks for the advice. I'm definitly doing my due diligence on this and hoping to find something that meets the aesthetics criteria but will also allow for optimal utility purpose. But as the days get colder, my wife is asking more frequently where we stand with the wood burning project! I can't hesitate too much longer!

For any Jotul fans, I notice people keep saying the 550 is bigger, but the dimensions in the brochure have them at 2.05 and 2.08 cubic feet, so a negligible burn box difference. So what is the difference allowing for longer burn time and sq footage heated?

 

[begreen]

Is the block off something standard that most places install, or is it something specific you have to ask them to do?

And you really got me thinking now! I would probably go with the Jotul 550 over the 450 for only a couple hundred more. After looking at it though, if firebox is nearly identical, why is the 550 rated to heat a large sq footage?

Maybe as my first stove it would simply make sense to see if I didn't sleep too long on that Enerzone from the place going out of business, grab it, and find someone else to do the install...

A block-off plate will keep the heat in the fireplace chamber and thus keep the insert warmer. That means more heat in the house instead of warming up the mass of masonry and outdoors. The Jotul 550 is not a much larger stove and has mixed reviews from those wanting long burn times. Sometimes one needs to be skeptical of marketing figures. In mid-sized I would look at PE, Osburn and Enviro inserts.

 

[Log Splitter]

A block-off plate will keep the heat in the fireplace chamber and thus keep the insert warmer. That means more heat in the house instead of warming up the mass of masonry and outdoors. The Jotul 550 is not a much larger stove and has mixed reviews from those wanting long burn times. Sometimes one needs to be skeptical of marketing figures. In mid-sized I would look at PE, Osburn and Enviro inserts.

Yeah, that's where I'm confused. Because even the #'s they have spec'd out for the fire box are almost identical. So what makes this a bigger, better burning box when the firebox sizes are nearly identical?

 

[begreen]

So what makes this a bigger, better burning box when the firebox sizes are nearly identical?

It's not. The main difference is adjustable depth vs flush.

 

[Log Splitter]

It's not. The main difference is adjustable depth vs flush.

Hmm, not exactly sure I follow what you mean by this. Is this referring to how far out the box can sit on the hearth? One can be only flush where one can be flush or stick out?

Edit: To answer my own question, it looks like 450 is adjustable in regards to depth on hearth.