regulation on seasoned wood guarantee weigh in gang

[stoveguy2esw]

a thread in the woodstove room prompted this one.

the point was raised that properly seasoned wood would make a huge difference in particulate release, possibly more so than the potential reduction from the tighter EPA standards being proposed these days to replace Phase 2.

the question; how could this be accomplished in ways that do not drive folks out of the wood burning option due to added expenses, and in what ways could this be realistically accomplished?

have at it gang, this one could be fun and educational as well. we want ideas not partisanship! so lets stay on topic.

 

[velvetfoot]

I thought a catalytic converter was the answer to everything.

 

[bmblank]

The regulations would just drive the price of wood up. It's hard to make money in selling firewood as it is unless you have quite the operation.
If they're going to do something like that I sure hope they wouldn't end up regulating individuals burning their own wood. Then it wouldn't affect me as much.
I suppose wood as a fuel can't be compared straight up to gas or the others. It's hard to come up with your own source of gas.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

im thinking strictly retailed wood, not "cut it myself" I don't want the "smoke police" standing in my driveway trying to see how much smoke is coming out my stack, I doubt anyone would want that.

the idea is to discuss ways that lead to more wood burners will burn seasoned wood to cut down on the higher emissions that occur from burning non seasoned wood.

 

[semipro]

Voluntary certification might work -- something similar to what's been done for "organic" crops.
At least this would serve to educate and probably lead to burners making better choices whether they cut it themselves or buy it.
Whether you decide to buy organic or not most folks at least have some idea of what it means nowadays.

 

[blades]

The minute you say regulatory that adds the Gov. into the picture= $ increase. We all know what happens once the gov gets into it. Would it kill the industry completely - no, but it would revert to strictly an ambiance type activity for the most part. There is very little margin on selling wood as it is - adding more regulations may seem like a good idea - in practacality is a pxxx poor way of education of the public at large at the expense of a very small segment of society.

 

[begreen]

The only regulation needed is that if one 'advertises' seasoned wood, then the moisture content must be at or less than a predetermined number, say 20%. This is the same as saying a cord of wood must be 128 cu ft.. Our state's weights and measures enforces this reg.. Regulations don't always add cost.

The point is to end the ruse of calling damp-in-the-core, poorly seasoned wood - seasoned. That is a dishonest but common practice. If you want to sell unseasoned wood cheaper, no problem, but you should not be allowed to call it seasoned. Yes, seasoned wood may cost more, it often does. But that hasn't put folks that sell the real mccoy out of business. If anything it often boosts business once word gets out and people become educated about the difference.

At the beginning of every heating season we get dozens of people complaining that their stove doesn't work when it has nothing to do with the stove. It's the wood. If these people can find dry wood they will buy it. The smart ones will also start buying lower priced unseasoned wood a year or two in advance. If one has limited space to store wood then buying truly seasoned wood or a compressed wood product is usually the best solution.

 

[JustWood]

With the ban on some OWB's in NYS I saw an increase in people asking for seasoned wood. I believe that NYS or a manufacturer may have got mailing lists from OWB retailers of past owners and sent out flyers about proper burning practices . I heard about the flyer but never saw one and don't know the source.
I think education on the individual burner is the only way this will work.
Regulation on predrying before the sale will kill the industry. I know I wood be done the minute any regs kicked in. The price of wood , would double overnite. Maybe triple.
I've thought about drying using waste heat from an industry as the source. But big industry isn't going to blink an eye at a firewood vendor no matter how large.
Even with a free energy source to dry the wood the infrastructure and handling is going to dramatically increase the price of wood.

 

[velvetfoot]

Even with a free energy source the infrastructure and handling is going to dramatically increase the price of wood

up to the price of pellets, which might be the ultimate goal anyway.

 

[fossil]

What about if wood sellers informed the consumers about the moisture content of the wood they're buying and told them that in order to get maximum performance (and pollution compliance) out of their wood-burning appliance, this wood really needs to be stacked and stored in sun/wind exposure for about xxx months, years, whatever...and here are the reasons why...? I agree that education of the end user is the ultimate solution, not regulation/additional requirements on the wood providers. We all need to work together on this. Rick

 

[begreen]

That presumes all wood sellers are honest. Not going to happen. That is why WA state weights and measures put some teeth behind the definition of a cord. If you sell wood as "seasoned" is should stand up to an established measure of moisture with some teeth behind it if you try to sell seasoned wood that isn't. This is not forcing wood sellers to sell dry wood, it is protecting the consumer.

 

[fossil]

OK, so wood sellers are liars and consumers are stupid.

 

[begreen]

Not all in either case, but yes both happen with greater frequency than one would like to see. Locally there are a lot of folks that sell wood as seasoned, but when questioned you find that it was cut into log lengths last year, but cut into rounds and split last week. In fall we hear too many reports of folks buying 'seasoned' wood that isn't. They are not stupid, they are naive and new buyers. That's why they blame the stove first. They trusted the seller. There are also pros like Lee or NWFuels that deliver what they say they will deliver. They are in it for the long haul and take pride in their reputation.

 

[semipro]

OK, so wood sellers are liars and consumers are stupid.

I think many wood sellers are just ignorant themselves.
I was checking out a local vendors pile of splits and broke out my moisture meter. It was blatantly obvious the fellow had never seen one before.

Also, I think there's a big difference between being "stupid" and being "ignorant".

 

[JustWood]

What about if wood sellers informed the consumers about the moisture content of the wood they're buying and told them that in order to get maximum performance (and pollution compliance) out of their wood-burning appliance, this wood really needs to be stacked and stored in sun/wind exposure for about xxx months, years, whatever...and here are the reasons why...? I agree that education of the end user is the ultimate solution, not regulation/additional requirements on the wood providers. We all need to work together on this. Rick

I've been trying to educate for 26 years. It doesn't work.
90% of the volume I move is green 6 months or less off the stump with near zero complaints. If there is a complaint it's usually in the beginning of winter when rain changing to snow. Slush covered wood just don't burn even if seasoned.
2004-2006 was my first try at seasoned . Bought 2 processors and other support equipment and I put up 4-5000 cord to sell beyond green sales with a 20% premium in price over green . I couldn't sell it . I figure I lost about 10% overall too rot. I'm down to around 200 cord right now . I separated the beech and maple and sold it first as it rots faster. Kept the cherry and oak to sell last. Glad I did. It limited my losses.
My point is that education needs to start at the end user. The vendors will be forced to follow the market. Potential good vendors will be lost to the same fate I suffered. My only saving grace was I sold all but one piece of equipment at a profit.
There was no reason for the end user to follow my lead when there were other cheaper/easier options. If all end users are educated at the same time an instantaneous demand for the required product will be created.
Regulation on the vendor will only create an inflated market for a few years before it levels.

 

[BrotherBart]

"the only winning move is not to play"

- Josuha

 

[begreen]

Agreed Lee. Education must start at the user. That is why we are here and do what we do.

 

[semipro]

Agreed Lee. Education must start at the user. That is why we are here and do what we do.

And why I think someone with deeper pockets and a greater public impact should get involved in the education.
Its just possible that a little money spent this way would have significant impacts on air quality and energy efficiency.
EPA and DOE come to mind but the kind of folks that think seasoning is unimportant probably wouldn't listen to them anyway.

 

[semipro]

I've been trying to educate for 26 years. It doesn't work.
90% of the volume I move is green 6 months or less off the stump with near zero complaints. If there is a complaint it's usually in the beginning of winter when rain changing to snow. Slush covered wood just don't burn even if seasoned.
2004-2006 was my first try at seasoned . Bought 2 processors and other support equipment and I put up 4-5000 cord to sell beyond green sales with a 20% premium in price over green . I couldn't sell it . I figure I lost about 10% overall too rot. I'm down to around 200 cord right now . I separated the beech and maple and sold it first as it rots faster. Kept the cherry and oak to sell last. Glad I did. It limited my losses.
My point is that education needs to start at the end user. The vendors will be forced to follow the market. Potential good vendors will be lost to the same fate I suffered. My only saving grace was I sold all but one piece of equipment at a profit.
There was no reason for the end user to follow my lead when there were other cheaper/easier options. If all end users are educated at the same time an instantaneous demand for the required product will be created.
Regulation on the vendor will only create an inflated market for a few years before it levels.

This situation reminds me of one some of my builder friends experience -- home buyers seldom recognize or appreciate the value of buying a well-built home, nor are they usually willing to pay for it.

 

[velvetfoot]

If burning stick wood was regulated out of existance, (see coal fired power plants), the only wood alternative left would be pellets, which are more uniform in nature.

 

[peakbagger]

I think a typical consumer used the expensive education approach. Complain about fuel prices, buy an EPA stove or boiler, buy some green firewood in September to burn in October, go through a cold winter trying to burn green wood and then if they don't sell the stove get some green wood in the spring. Then experience a slightly better winter with 6 month dry wood and finally figure out a way to get ahead on wood for the third year and then have time to post on Hearth.com to newbees about burning green wood.

 

[branchburner]

The only regulation needed is that if one 'advertises' seasoned wood, then the moisture content must be at or less than a predetermined number, say 20%. This is the same as saying a cord of wood must be 128 cu ft.

Agree 100%. I would suggest since "seasoned" is already an abused and meaningless word, that the legal standard (at or less than 20%?) go by a different name, such as "Ready-To-Burn" or a similar designation that would be used exclusively for wood meeting the legal requirements. Otherwise the claim of ignorance -- "I didn't know what 'seasoned' meant" -- will be never-ending.

It would be futile to expect significant change to come from wood sellers at large... they are largely responding to the consumer demand for the cheapest wood, which means the greenest, and which puts pressure on them to cut costs (if not corners). But change would be helped by the smaller subset of proactive wood sellers who understand and promote the benefits of properly seasoned wood, and advise their customers to either pay a premium for pre-seasoned wood or to always buy at least a year ahead if buying green.

The best "push" would come from stove manufacturers and stove dealers. Stove makers already discuss the importance of dry wood in the owners' manuals, but in such a way that it's hidden among seemingly more important info and is easily missed or ignored by many consumers. In a previous thread I recommended that manufacturers go so far as to suggest the warranty may be void if the stove owner burns green wood. This does not mean manufacturers actually refuse to honor the warranty based on such a suspicion (unprovable, in any event)... it simply means greater awareness is brought to the consumer, because he suddenly see dollar signs on the other side of the ledger when weighing the (false) savings of burning subpar wood. It's not that far off from telling them not to burn garbage in the stove or to overfire it.

Stove dealers can point out to their customers this "official" warranty requirement to burn dry wood, and help their customers by advising which local wood sellers supply "Ready-To-Burn" wood, or by advising to get a year ahead if buying green or cutting one's own wood. This initial effort by the dealer, if properly and consistently stressed, also greatly reduces the odds of getting "my stove doesn't work" complaints by users of green wood.

For a company like Englander that sells largely in box stores with lesser customer service, the number one move would be to format brochures and promotional material so that the importance of burning dry wood -- strictly from a performance and heat-output standpoint, if not the suggested warranty standpoint -- is emphasized much more prominently, rather than buried offhand in a few sentences of fine print among the dozens of pages of a typical owners manual.

Old-timers, or owners of smoke dragons, or stubborn fools, are not going to be educated or swayed from their habits of burning freshly split oak, but the newer generation of wood-burners CAN be educated, and the best source of sparking that education would be at the consumer-retailer interface, with the resources and leverage of stove manufacturers as a driving force.

 

[begreen]

If burning stick wood was regulated out of existance, (see coal fired power plants), the only wood alternative left would be pellets, which are more uniform in nature.

I sure hope that does not become the only option. I would be opposed to that style regulation in general, though I could see it happening for certain urban areas.

 

[Highbeam]

im thinking strictly retailed wood, not "cut it myself" I don't want the "smoke police" standing in my driveway trying to see how much smoke is coming out my stack, I doubt anyone would want that.

This already happens. Our local boys have limits on the opacity of smoke allowed to leave your stack. Yes, they sit in your driveway and then write you a very very expensive (think four digits) fine. This applies whether there is a burn ban or not.

Just as woodsellers will claim ignorance about what a cord is, they will also claim ignorance about what the term seasoned means. As such, pick a name whether that is seasoned or dry or ready-to-burn and define it in the law as a particular % moisture. Leave it at that. It is important to note that nobody is requiring all woodsellers to sell wood meeting the either definition but that it is a separate product.

This will create a higher priced wood and a lower priced green wood to reflect the additional work and time needed for seasoned wood. Also, the higher price will reflect the additional risk that the woodseller takes on by claiming dry wood and then having to prove it.

I predict that sellers will just stop using the defined words (dry, seasoned, RTB, etc.) in their ads.

If the goal is really ro reduce emissions then IMO the money needs to be spent on removing the smoke dragons either by law (cheap) or by buy backs (expensive).

 

[semipro]

This discussion prompted me to have a look around at who might best be able to educate on wood fuel quality. One of the more promising groups appears to be "The Alliance for Green Heat". These are the folks that promoted the Wood Stove Decathlon (competition) event in DC. I reviewed there website and was disappointed that this issue was not front and center. I wrote to tell them so. My message and the thoughtful response from John Ackerly, the organization's president, follows.

(Andy)
"There is a general consensus among wood burning experts and advocates that much needs to be done to educate users on the adverse impacts of burning improperly seasoned (green) wood. Some have even suggested that fuel sources should be regulated to ensure adequate quality. Most EPA certified wood stoves require fuel seasoned to 20% water content or less to burn as designed. Use of insufficiently dry wood results in poor stove performance, heating inefficiency, and unnecessary pollution. In many cases cord wood is sold at "seasoned" when water content is well above that required for clean, efficient burning.
I was very surprised (and disappointed) to see that The Alliance for Green Heat doesn’t seem to place a lot of emphasis on this issue and I can’t help but wonder why? Yes, there are numerous references to the functional requirement for burning well-seasoned wood within various articles but a problem of this magnitude seems to deserve much greater emphasis.
While I applaud your promotion of the Wood Stove Decathlon, I respectfully suggest that your organization would have a greater beneficial impact through publicizing the importance of fuel quality. I realize that wood moisture content is not quite as interesting to the general public and others as is new stove technology but much like initiatives to weatherize poorly insulated/sealed buildings, the efforts of wood burning advocates should focus on the basics, issues such as quality fuel."

(John)
Thanks for that feedback. Its true that we tend to do policy and technology related posts, but we try to mention the importance of seasoned fuel in lots of those posts. We have spearheaded some fuel related issues, even to the point of questioning whether programs should incentivize wood sheds instead of changing out old stoves. There finally is a firewood association in the US, and we pushed them to focus more on at least some voluntary code or standard that firewood retailers need or could sign on to, but they have not gone that route. Other countries, as you say, regulate it.

Anyway, thanks for pointing that out and we will try to make it more prominent.