Remote Storage?

[mikefrommaine]

I have a Biomass 60 in my basement in a room next to my oil boiler. Been using it for a year without storage.

I just had a couple propane tanks delivered (thanks again JP) So now I have to figure out how and where I am going to plumb them into my system.

I was thinking I might follow this diagram from Tarm. EXCEPT I dont have a termovar. It is currently plumbed with a 00r/danfoss valve

My question is how far from my boilers can I place the tanks? I dont have any room right next to the boiler and distribution system. The best place to put them in the basement is about 40' away. I would probably have about 50-60' of piping between the boiler and tanks. Is this going to cause problems? I imagine the response time when the thermostats call for heat will be delayed and I will have some heat loss from the pipes.

 

[BoilerMan]

I wouldn't think it would be a problem at all. As long as the piping is sized for the correct flow. Are the tanks dual inlet / dual outlet? If so then boiler piping would simply go directly to the tanks, and then from the tanks to the load.

Taylor

 

[mikefrommaine]

I wouldn't think it would be a problem at all. As long as the piping is sized for the correct flow. Are the tanks dual inlet / dual outlet? If so then boiler piping would simply go directly to the tanks, and then from the tanks to the load.

Taylor

They will be when I find a welder. I dont think I have the headroom to stack the tanks so they will be horizontal and side by side. So I figured I would plumb them parallel instead of in series.

 

[JP11]

Any "loss" you have is a gain in the house. Assuming it's not too warm where the tanks are going... not a huge deal.

As for recovery time.. I'll let the pro's answer that part.

Glad you're happy with the tanks.. worked out well for everyone involved.

JP

 

[woodsmaster]

I wouldn't think there would be much of any delay for hot water. Insulate your pipes and they will stay hot.

 

[maple1]

BTW, the tanks don't have to have dual inlets & outlets - as noted by the diagram you posted. Might save some welding hassles? Depending on what they have now that is.

 

[Tennman]

Perfect timing Mike. I noticed in the schematic a Termovar loading valve. For some reason I thot Termovar and Laddomat were in some way the same company/product. They're not. The only thing I don't like about the Termovar is the 1 1/4" ports, but functionally it looks like it does the same thing a the Laddo. All my boiler room black iron is 1 1/2". I'm planning on using a Laddo 21-100 which comes with ball valves and 1 1/2" lines like my existing Danfoss. My storage will be maybe somewhat closer than yours from my boiler but the dealer assures me the Laddo will easily handle boiler-storage circulation. I'll be using my 0013 Taco for storage-house. I've decided I'm tired messing with Danfoss.

I've seen hot supply ports welded onto the very top of the tank and also on the side slightly below the dome weld seam as shown in the picture. Does anyone out there know the pro/cons? I've seen pictures here where there are two tanks and there is a tee at the weld flange right under the tank dome weld seam to tee the two tanks together. I guess pulling the water (supply and return) from above the dome works ok right??? Years ago there was talk about "dip" tubes I think to improve stratification???? I don't want to create a science project but if there are better places to weld the flanges I'd like to know now. Otherwise, I plan on welding my 1 1/2" weld ports on about 2" below the dome to barrel section weld seam. AND is it better to weld two ports opposing one another vs. connecting with a tee. Teeing in the front sure would be the easiest and most compact assuming the tanks are setting vertical (which I plan on doing). I'm guessing that's what most of you have.

 

[maple1]

Just an added note - others have posted before about dealing with leaky welds.

Well, I'm going through that right now. I'm waiting for my welder to come to me with his portable unit to fix three welds (out of 11), one each on three tanks, that one of his guys didn't get quite right. I found the leaks after pumping up with air, before wheeling the tanks into the basement. I'm dissappointed having to deal with this, but glad he's going to look after me, and extra glad I didn't try the welding myself. The welds look OK from the outside, actually very good & tons better than I could ever do, but I guess it doesn't take much of an impurity to work into them & make an almost invisible passage. So my advice is to limit welding to the bare minimum (yes, it can happen to the best of pros), and double check for leaks before getting the tanks in a hard-to-get-to place AND/OR filling with water.

Good thing I started this project in the spring (and not just because of this episode)...

 

[ewdudley]

I've seen hot supply ports welded onto the very top of the tank and also on the side slightly below the dome weld seam as shown in the picture. Does anyone out there know the pro/cons? I've seen pictures here where there are two tanks and there is a tee at the weld flange right under the tank dome weld seam to tee the two tanks together. I guess pulling the water (supply and return) from above the dome works ok right??? Years ago there was talk about "dip" tubes I think to improve stratification????

I did three 250 gallon vertical tanks in a row with couplings welded to the middles of the tops and to the middles of the bottoms.

The main advantage I saw was that there is no wasted tank volume. Another advantage in my case was that with the tanks in a row next to the boiler, the plane of the middle of the tanks lined up nicely with the plumbing connections to the boiler when it was placed where it needed to be.

The main disadvantage was that with the manifolds above and below the tanks vertical space was hard to manage, particularly on the bottom where it was difficult to build a tank support system that allowed the manifold to be assembled.

The disadvantage of coming in from the sides near the dome seam is that you can fail to make use of as much as one sixth of the tank volume on each end of the tank, or one third total. Once hot water rises above the top port or cool water sinks below the lower port, it is not available for storage.

Someone shared the idea of running risers and dip tubes inside the tank, running at angles to the middle of the domes from the ports on the side. This seems like a very good idea to me if you're in a situation where going to the middle of the domes would be difficult and you're disinclined to write off a significant percentage of your storage.

Depending on your manifold design, you may find it useful to assemble the manifolds completely and use them to locate and align the couplings on the tanks before you tack the couplings firmly into place. Also I found it worked nicely to weld the couplings blind and then cut the ports with a hole saw afterwards.

 

[JP11]

Maple

Don't feel like the lone ranger. I had the same thing. 2 weepers and one LEAK that took him 3 tries with the tig machine.

It'll all be fine soon.

JP

 

[Tennman]

Yeah EW, that makes sense about the potentially unavailable stored energy with the ports away from the ends. There has to be some stirring going on with two pumps hitting the storage tanks. But physics says the hottest water will accumulate at the top and and coldest at the bottom.... got it. I've got 10' floor to ceiling in my boiler barn. 500 gal tanks are ~118" long. I'd intend to position vertically by welding legs to the tanks. So I think I'm going to compromise and position my circulation weld fittings at maybe 1-2 o'clock down from the top of the dome to keep my total storage height to less than 120" but have my hot and cold ports much nearer the top and bottom. I can rotate the tanks so the tees and ells align like your approach and the total floor footprint will keep everything inside the tank diameter. My water will be entering at an angle into the tank but I can't imagine that will make any difference in flow or storage efficiency. I will put 1/2" vent and drain ports at the dome very top and bottom. And... I like the idea of assembling my manifolds and welding the ports to match the tank spacing. Then off to a foamer and voila! Ya'll throw stones at this approach if I've missed something, but that's the input I wanted. If I get the time I'll post a CAD pic just for posterity.

 

[Mark Holden]

I've made a few big [1.8 ton] water tanks, and a bunch of oil tanks too.
Very small leaks in mild steel water tanks just rust themselves closed in a few days.

Fuel tanks are trickier; if tested with water, they self-seal, but then they can then leak a few months after filling with fuel. If tested with fuel and found to leak, they have to be welded with fuel or water in them. The water will be contaminated with fuel and be a cleanup problem.

With oil tanks, I've welded right over the leak while the sound of boiling came from within...