Replacing a Scan 61 - Thoughts on New Stoves

[SBlackstone]

Gentlemen, Ladies.

I have gained a tremendous amount of info from your posts. I am new to wood burning stoves.

I am in need of your thoughts. I am looking to replace a Scan 61 (big embarrassing purchase – Blinded by the look, $, and forgot the rest) with a newer, more efficient stove. I live In NE, my house is a ranch style, on a slab and about 2300 sq ft open space design.

The issue is which stove to choose, and concern of where stove is be located: on the farthest corner of the house as I need to move heat through a large room with a high ceiling, large windows (location of wood stove) to the other side where the bedrooms are located.

I have looked at the PE “The Summit” Fusion, Jotul F 50 TL Rangley, Quadra-Fire Step-Top 4300 and the Regency CS2400.

I have added a diagram for additional info.

Any thoughts would be appreciated,

Sam

 

[pen]

Have you used the scan 61? Or did you buy it used and since decided not to install it?

What are your heating goals? Do you plan on burning 24/7 and not wanting the furnace to run? Do you want to burn for ambiance only? Do you simply want to supplement your heating needs?

Also, I'm guessing the kitchen is in the upper right hand corner of your picture?

Welcome to the site!

pen

 

[BrowningBAR]

Have you used the scan 61? Or did you buy it used and since decided not to install it?

What are your heating goals? Do you plan on burning 24/7 and not wanting the furnace to run? Do you want to burn for ambiance only? Do you simply want to supplement your heating needs?

Also, I'm guessing the kitchen is in the upper right hand corner of your picture?

Welcome to the site!

pen

Yes, what was the actual problem with the Scan stove? Did it not work properly?

We need to know what the problem was so you can avoid the issue again going forward.

 

[begreen]

Welcome Sam. These stoves should all work. But I am also curious about the Scan failure and wondering if it is draft related. If so, it may not be the stove.

What's the height of the entire flue from stove to chimney cap? How is the Scan vented? Straight up or are there elbows and an exterior chimney involved?

 

[SBlackstone]

Guys, Thx for the reply.and Pen thx for the welcome...I have used the Scan 61 for 2 1/2 winters. The kitchen is in the upper part of the large room and I do want to create a system in which I rarely if ever use the oil guzzling boiler. The scan runs about 10' 8" from stove to end cap. it runs 3' 6" outside from roof to endcap. The Scan is vented straight up, no angles or elbows. I used DL wall pipe.

The stove was brand new when purchased, it has never worked properly. Using a surface thermostat, we were never able to get it pass the 400 mark (it barely made it and never stayed - We used different types of dried wood)) not matter the type of wood we used and fans on top of the stove.

The heat barely made it out the large room, which is 660 sg ft.

Thx

Sam

Gentlemen, Ladies.

I have gained a tremendous amount of info from your posts. I am new to wood burning stoves.

I am in need of your thoughts. I am looking to replace a Scan 61 (big embarrassing purchase – Blinded by the look, $, and forgot the rest) with a newer, more efficient stove. I live In NE, my house is a ranch style, on a slab and about 2300 sq ft open space design.

The issue is which stove to choose, and concern of where stove is be located: on the farthest corner of the house as I need to move heat through a large room with a high ceiling, large windows (location of wood stove) to the other side where the bedrooms are located.

I have looked at the PE “The Summit” Fusion, Jotul F 50 TL Rangley, Quadra-Fire Step-Top 4300 and the Regency CS2400.

I have added a diagram for additional info.

Any thoughts would be appreciated,

Sam

 

[pen]

I think BG nailed it.

If that stove isn't drafting enough since your chimney is very short, there is a good chance that you simply need to make the chimney taller. Be sure to add a support jack while there. Also it is 6 inch in diameter correct?

Also, how seasoned is your firewood? What type of wood are you burning. Most woods need to be cut, split and stacked in a well ventilated area outdoors for at least 1 full year to be seasoned and work the best. Some wood like oak generally take 2 years to be ready. If you see any bubbles forming on the ends of your firewood once it starts to burn, or you hear hissing, then you know that wood needs more drying time.

Either problem, unseasoned wood or the chimney which is too short, or both, will give the exact symptoms you are seeing. You should have no problem getting that stove up to 650+ you won't believe the difference in heat output once you do.

Also, just to check, you aren't using a key damper or magic heat reclaimer are you?

If it were me, I'd make sure the chimney and cap are clean, I'd get some firewood that you KNOW is well seasoned, load that stove up and let it rip. If you still can't get the temps up, then I'd be buying more class A pipe and that jack.

Once you figure out what you need to do to make those temps climb, you can fine tune by adjusting how you load the firewood into the unit, size of splits used, etc.

pen

 

[BrowningBAR]

Guys, Thx for the reply.and Pen thx for the welcome...I have used the Scan 61 for 2 1/2 winters. The kitchen is in the upper part of the large room and I do want to create a system in which I rarely if ever use the oil guzzling boiler. The scan runs about 10' 8" from stove to end cap. it runs 3' 6" outside from roof to endcap. The Scan is vented straight up, no angles or elbows. I used DL wall pipe.

The stove was brand new when purchased, it has never worked properly. Using a surface thermostat, we were never able to get it pass the 400 mark (it barely made it and never stayed - We used different types of dried wood)) not matter the type of wood we used and fans on top of the stove.

The heat barely made it out the large room, which is 660 sg ft.

Thx

Sam

10'8" seems a bit short for any stove.

Also, how did you know the wood you had was dry? Having a problem with getting the stove hot is usually due to wet fuel and/or poor draft. In this case it could be both. A new stove will not solve this. You need to be sure what the issues are before you invest more money into another stove that may not perform any better.

 

[pen]

10'8" seems a bit short for any stove.

Also, how did you know the wood you had was dry? Having a problem with getting the stove hot is usually due to wet fuel and/or poor draft. In this case it could be both. A new stove will not solve this. You need to be sure what the issues are before you invest more money into another stove that may not perform any better.

Exactly, no point in changing stoves until this one operates properly.

If this one is up to 600+ and the joint is still cold, then it's time to reconsider.

pen

 

[begreen]

The flue is too short. This stove needs enough draft to pull air through the secondary manifold. A new stove could have the same problem. Before scrapping the stove I recommend adding 3-4ft to the chimney. It could make a nice difference and save some bucks.

Here's what the manual says:

"The condition of the chimney and height is very important; we suggest a total minimum height of 15’ (4,5m). Measured From the floor level on which the stove is installed."

"SCAN stoves are only one component of the total system. The venting system is equally important for achieving the required flow of combustion air to the firebox and for safely removing unwanted combustion by-products from the appliance. If the venting system’s design does not promote these ends, the system may not function properly."

 

[Jags]

Yes, I will + whatever to the above posts. I am currently questioning your fuel and your flue. More info on both please.

 

[firefighterjake]

Echoing here . . . and adding a bit . . . or at least questioning.

Draft is most likely an issue . . . a little over 10 feet of chimney is pretty darn short. Just about every woodstove out there needs a decent length chimney for a good draft -- it seems as though most of the specs I've seen seem to call for 14-16 feet at a minimum. Not having a good draft on a woodstove is like stuffing a rag into your car's air intake/exhaust system -- it may run, but not very well if it's not getting that good flow of air in and out of the stove.

Wood could also be an issue . . . as mentioned many folks think their wood is seasoned . . . when it may or may not be. Some folks here go by the moisture content -- I think 20-22% most folks say is pretty good. I simply cut, split and stack my wood a year or two (or three) in advance and the wood is good.

My question though . . . and it could be a dumb one, so bear with me . . . when the temps start to come up with the stove do you start to slowly turn down the air control from fully open to almost shut? It may sound dumb, but many folks think more air = more heat when the opposite is true with the EPA stoves -- especially the secondary burners.

 

[BrowningBAR]

My question though . . . and it could be a dumb one, so bear with me . . . when the temps start to come up with the stove do you start to slowly turn down the air control from fully open to almost shut? It may sound dumb, but many folks think more air = more heat when the opposite is true with the EPA stoves -- especially the secondary burners.

Good point.

 

[Ashful]

While the chimney is obsenely short and should likely be addressed, I'm putting my money on too-green wood, based on the statemements given. He made no mention of troubles with making it burn, just with the amount of heat produced. Poor draft will produce visibly poor results, back puffing, and all sorts of trouble with keeping the fire going. If you're not having those symptoms, and still getting low heat output, it seems like either operator error (air control / damper, etc.) or wet wood.

 

[SBlackstone]

Gents, You have opened my eyes my what I am now believe may have been the issue with this stove all this time: With that in mind I made a mistake in my initial assessment (my apologies) o the currently size is actually about 12' I rushed yesterday to gather the info ( call it newbie adrenaline ) For me it is exciting to finally be able to think of the incoming winter without dreading its affects in the home.

It is 5' 11” inside (most likely 11” passing the trusses, 4' 3” outside. I measured from the flue to the ridge of the roof (11' ½ “).

With the new specs in mind, what do you recommend for sizing upgrade and do you have any thoughts on a good moisture meter for less than a $100.

As for the wood, I purchased what I had assumed was dry wood based on the look, sound (tid bits learned on the web). I was able to get consistent burn from the stove after a few tries. I even purchased a few bundles from the likes of Lowes, Home Depot, Christmas Tree Shop to see if it was the wood...lots of monies lost experimenting.

In regards to air control, I tried every way to maximize the burn, from long opening on high to slowly reducing the air intake to see progress of heat output and thru out all of those experiments, I was only able to get to the 400 mark using a Condar Inferno stove top meter.

Once again I thank your for your invaluable input,

Sam

 

[James02]

I can do better than $100...Lowes, under $40...Folks have posted Harbor Freight also...Or Amazon...

 

[Jags]

Yep, the HF cheapies work just fine for firewood.

Do NOT assume your purchased wood is dry until YOU have stacked it for a year. Other than a moisture meter it is the only way to be positive.

Extend your flue by a few feet - using the proper bracing if necessary.

Operation - we can get to that once your fuel and flue have been addressed. What is your wood source for this years burning? Do you already have it procured and stacked??

 

[SBlackstone]

Do you guys have a recommended brand for moisture meter. Yes, I do have two cords that have been drying in the yard for 15 months, and 2+ for less than a year

 

[Jags]

I can't even find one like the one I use anymore - possibly not even made anymore. For firewood something like this would probably work just fine:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Min...315?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35bf2bdfeb

or
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-2Pins-...042?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf3ebcf6a

or
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Pins-Digi...997?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d3b1eaf5

Edit: warning - the middle one uses a goofy 12V battery. Maybe a consideration for battery replacement.

 

[mellow]

I have an older version of this one and love it:

http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-mini-moisture-meter-67143.html

 

[Ashful]

I bought the one carried at Lowes, recommended by several other posters here:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_78059-56005-MMD4E_0__?productId=3136919

Most wood sellers will tell you they only sell seasoned wood. What they usually mean is that the tree was felled more than a year ago, but most often split shortly before delivery. For a modern EPA stove, you typically want moisture content close to 20%, and you're not going to get there with wood stacked in the round for a year. Under most typical conditions, wood should be split and stacked at least 18 months for hardwoods and 9 months for softwoods.

 

[jeromehdmc]

I have a Scan A10, a little different stove but still similar.
My chimney is on the short side and I go from 6" to 8" at the ceiling. Not optimum I know but I have no trouble getting the stove up to temp.
When the stove is going good I can shut the primary air almost all the way off and the secondaries go like mad. Are you getting good secondaries?
These guys are on target about the chimney height and moisture content of the wood. The first year I burned I had
less than seasoned wood. I thought it seasoned good in log form....wrong. Get a meter and it will tell you a different story.
I have a HF one and it does just fine. Be sure your wood is less than 20% and I think you will find the stove will run better.

Listen to these guys, they know their stoves.

 

[jeromehdmc]

Also with the size of house you are trying to heat this stove is small if you are wanting it as your only source.
I have around the same size house and I still have to use the furnace, although not nearly as much as before the stove.
Use fans to move cold air into the warm room. Set it on the floor and have it on low.
I think I have cut my propane usage by half by burning the stove.
Don't get too hung up on the thermometer, they can vary quite a bit.
If I remember right my Scan likes to run at about 500.

 

[begreen]

Gents, You have opened my eyes my what I am now believe may have been the issue with this stove all this time: With that in mind I made a mistake in my initial assessment (my apologies) o the currently size is actually about 12' I rushed yesterday to gather the info ( call it newbie adrenaline ) For me it is exciting to finally be able to think of the incoming winter without dreading its affects in the home.

It is 5' 11” inside (most likely 11” passing the trusses, 4' 3” outside. I measured from the flue to the ridge of the roof (11' ½ “).

With the new specs in mind, what do you recommend for sizing upgrade and do you have any thoughts on a good moisture meter for less than a $100.

As for the wood, I purchased what I had assumed was dry wood based on the look, sound (tid bits learned on the web). I was able to get consistent burn from the stove after a few tries. I even purchased a few bundles from the likes of Lowes, Home Depot, Christmas Tree Shop to see if it was the wood...lots of monies lost experimenting.

In regards to air control, I tried every way to maximize the burn, from long opening on high to slowly reducing the air intake to see progress of heat output and thru out all of those experiments, I was only able to get to the 400 mark using a Condar Inferno stove top meter.

Once again I thank your for your invaluable input,

Sam

If you want to test the theory on the next cool day when it is in the 40's outside try this. Get a 4' length of inexpensive, galvanized, 6" warm air pipe from Lowes or Home Depot. Pull the cap on the current chimney and cram the warm air pipe (crimp down) into the class A chimney to create a temporary 4ft extension. Best to do this on a not too windy day so the pipe stays in place. Then, with tested dry wood, build a fire starting off with smaller kindling. Be sure your splits are dry inside by resplitting them and testing the freshly exposed surface for moisture. It should be >20%. Add progressively larger splits until the fire is ablaze. When the wood is getting fully aflame, start progressively reducing the air until the flames get lazy, but not going out (maybe around 50%). Let the fire recover intensity for 5-10 min.. Then reduce the air supply a bit more(say to 25% open) or where the flames start to get lazy again, but not going out. Let the fire recover for 5 minutes or so, then repeat if necessary. By now good secondary combustion should be occurring and the stove temp should be rising to 500 or above.

 

[SBlackstone]

Gents,
Keeping you updated...I got 3' SS outside pipe - ( mighty costly - forgot how much those pipes can rack havoc on ones wallet).

Fired up the stove, added dryed wood....fire went up and there was a performance increase to close to 500 and it stayed there longer, heated up my 660 sq ft area nicely and living rm BUT it still was not enough even in the cool weather to reach comfortably into my small hallway to get into the bathroom, bedrooms.


Also purchased 2 new meters which was recommenred by you guys. I purchased the General (Model #: MMD4E) first and was quite surprised at the % it gave out on most of my wood (7 - 12%) - Even most of the logs I had in the back for about 3 months ( tree cut and delivered same time) before splitting two weeks ago were coming in below 20%. So I also purchased the harbor freight model (Item#67143). Give Or Take It Is About 2/3 % Difference In Measurement.




http://www.lowes.com/pd_78059-56005-MMD4E_0__?productId=3136919

 

[SBlackstone]

So, with that said, I have decided to forgo the Scan 61 and go the way of a new one (I have no choice and safe a few $$$, I will have to purchase before end of Sept to recoup a few bucks on the rebates going on.

I need some hearty advice (covering 2300 / 2500 sq ft (loft) of all one flat floor with an open space design....PE (The summit - model B 99000 btu) or quadra-fire (4300, 5700) Lennox Grandview, Jotul F50 (do not really care for the top load- looks to busy) or anything else.

PE seams to be have good rep, pricing for the summit( however can not understand why it is only 50 to 100 $ difference in price vs the all Black fusion)

Give it to me guys, winter is fast approaching this year in NE

Thanks,

Sam