replacing existing stove

[pma1123]

Ok, this place is beginning to affect my way of thinking.
I've read countless threads on all the great new stoves out there, and I'm beginning to look at what it would take to replace my pre EPA Vulcan Orion. Certainly I would like to at least upgrade to something with secondary air, and possibly even a catalyst offering; but my biggest desire is to gain some additional burn time to better supplement my heat and not have to reload every 2 hours. (primary heat=NG furnace/forced air) Even better, would be finding a nice reasonable cost (Drolet or Englander pedestal type) unit that would work for me and keep my total installed cost below $2500. (Function>form)

For a first timer, looking at all the specs; it is a bit overwhelming and thats why I'm here is to get a discussion going about my hearth, and specifically how it affects the clearances. The hearth itself is 3/8 durock with mortar/brick that overall sticks out 5" beyond the plaster wall. I'm curious what R-value this has, and also, what else I should be paying attention to. My current stove isn't nearly as deep as what much of the newer offerings are listed as, and that ultimately affects how much room I have in front of the stove.

This process is going to be a R&R operation; I am not looking to get into a major hearth remodeling job. I'm out to find a newer/better stove that meets my current space, flue, and heat requirements. I don't have an outside air kit on the current stove, and the house is an 1880 2 story brick construction; roughly 1400sqft. The stove is located in my living room on the 1st floor, and is generally as central-located as I could ask for given the house layout. I have leaky windows of various vintage, so I know I need to oversize the stove, ideally 3cu-ft firebox size. My existing flue is 6" doublewall stovepipe, to 6" sellkirk metalbestos doublewall going up through the 2nd floor with 2 elbow offset to get away from a ceiling joist/rafter, then to triplewall chimney pipe. I don't know the total height, (guessing ~20') but it drafts just fine with the current stove.
With the brick outside walls and leaky old windows, I'm not sure if installing OAK is a path I want to pursue, but it would be nice to have the option to upgrade to it down the road.

I have a coctail-napkin sketch of the hearth with some dimensions I'll clean-up to a more readable format, but to get things started, I attached a picture of what I'm working with. Please feel free to ask any questions on something I left out.

 

[Rickb]

Given that your on the west cost first thing I would be looking at is blaze king. If going new then any of the 30 series (sirocco, ashford, princess).

Used you might be able to find a decent princess. Any of those stoves will get you a much much longer burn time then you have now. You would be looking at burn times over 20 hours.....

You will have to check and see if your hearth is big enough.

 

[pma1123]

<----- (midwest)

Yes, blaze king is on the want list, but their dealer network local to me is nonexistent. Blaze kings website also didn't list a local dealer. Heck, I'd even drive a few hours to look at one.

Can anyone comment on how much room in front of the stove I need on the hearth to maintain? Or is this stove-specific?

 

[Charles1981]

WHAT IS THAT STOVE It is amazing. It looks straight out of graceland. I bet someone would pay more than you think for that stove due to its retro look.

 

[BrotherBart]

16" in front of the stove loading door is current U.S. code. 18" in Canada and probably gonna be for the U.S. before long.

 

[begreen]

Sounds like you could easily stay on budget with the stove pipe and flue ready to go. 4" of brick has an R value of .8, if that is the old style Durock it has an R value of .26 for a total of R=1.06. If you want 3 cu ft on a budget the Englander 30NC would be a good fit. You are a little shy on the hearth insulation requirement of R=1.5 but could make that up with another layer of brick under the pedestal foot of the stove.

 

[fossil]

I like begreen's plan. And please keep Wisconsin in the Midwest...my sister lives in Eau Claire, and that's plenty close enough for me right where it is.

 

[Rickb]

yea not sure what I was thinking....... Thought it was WA under his name not WI. I blame all the long hours at work!@

 

[pma1123]

I actually took some measurements of the current stove. It is much smaller than many of these 3cu-ft firebox offerings on the market today, and physical size will be a limiting factor in selection.
My current stove is only 21" deep, 26.25" wide, and 26" high. With this install, I have 25" of brick in front of the loading door.

The original stove manual says to install a minimum of 5" from combustibles, and I'm currently 3.5" away from the bricks at the back corners. (brick+durock = 2/3 rated clearance?) It claims it is mobile home approved if using an OAK. So this allowance for close-clearances is along the lines of what I need to find on the market today.

This current stove goes a max of 2 hours burn time on a load; an 8 hour runtime on a load is a dream to me, given what I'm used to. On the bright side, the current stove has a shallow firebox for N-S loads; I'm already accustomed to cutting my splits down to 14-16" lengths.

Ultimately I want a black box with a circulating blower and a glass door. I'm open to both catalyst and secondary air options.

Right now a perspective choice (size-wise) would be a blaze king sirocco 20. Does the pedestal version of that stove change my requirements for floor protection, (ember only?) or will I still need to add additional bricks under the pedestal? Does the convection deck option affect minimum clearance to combustibles? (side shields)

Can somebody suggest other mfg's I should be looking at for a similar-sized EPA unit that are rated for close clearances?

 

[begreen]

Bricks get a 1/3d clearance reduction with nothing added for the cement board. But you can't take that reduction unless the manual states it is an option. The reduction is really only meant to apply to non-EPA stoves. That said it looks like you have enough room. The stove requires 16" of hearth in front as measured from the front door.

A Pacific Energy Spectrum or a Lopi Endeavor are both ~2 cu ft stoves and have close clearances, ember protection only hearth requirements. Of the two the PE will have a bit longer burn times but both will do 8 hrs comfortably. The BK from all reports will provide a longer yet burn on a low heat setting. When it is very cold outside and the heat demand is high, all three stoves will start getting closer to equal burn times.

 

[Grisu]

I actually took some measurements of the current stove. It is much smaller than many of these 3cu-ft firebox offerings on the market today, and physical size will be a limiting factor in selection. My current stove is only 21" deep, 26.25" wide, and 26" high. With this install, I have 25" of brick in front of the loading door.

Which means another stove could have more depth up to leaving 16" of hearth. If you can post the hearth dimensions that would help. A stove with close clearances is the Lopi Endeavor but it has only a 2.2 cu ft firebox. For a large stove, maybe the Pacific Energy Summit would fit or the Enviro Kodiak 1700 (or 2100 with an even larger firebox).

The original stove manual says to install a minimum of 5" from combustibles, and I'm currently 3.5" away from the bricks at the back corners. (brick+durock = 2/3 rated clearance?)

Brick and durock are not combustibles, so you have to keep 5" only from the wood studs behind them.

Right now a perspective choice (size-wise) would be a blaze king sirocco 20. Does the pedestal version of that stove change my requirements for floor protection, (ember only?) or will I still need to add additional bricks under the pedestal?

The 20 is rather small with only 1.8 cu ft for a firebox. you may want to look at the Princess or the 30 series. Your hearth with the brick has a r-value of 0.8. Any stove that says less than that (including ember-protection only) will be good, as long as you have 16" from the front of the stove (or whatever hearth clearance the manual says).

 

[pma1123]

Thanks for the feedback and clarifications guys'! I completely missed the fact that I'm more like 8.5" away in the corner, given the brick thickness.

I added a rough sketch showing the space I have to work with. I measured to the outside of the doublewall connector pipe. (6")

 

[Grisu]

Thanks for the feedback and clarifications guys'! I completely missed the fact that I'm more like 8.5" away in the corner, given the brick thickness.
Hearth dimensions to follow...

However, while the install may be ok for your stove be careful to check any manual whether it says clearance to wall or combustibles. When in doubt ask the manufacturer.

 

[firefirefire]

<----- (midwest)

Yes, blaze king is on the want list, but their dealer network local to me is nonexistent. Blaze kings website also didn't list a local dealer. Heck, I'd even drive a few hours to look at one.

Can anyone comment on how much room in front of the stove I need on the hearth to maintain? Or is this stove-specific?

Hi PMA,

You have a Blaze King dealer not far from you.

Fireplace Professionals
2289 Hwy 73 Cambridge Wisconsin 53523 US


The folks there should be able to work through all the clearance questions with you as well.

 

[pma1123]

Thanks for the headsup! I will check it out.
I've looked at the PE product offerings at another local place, and the Super 27 is in the lead for me thus far.

 

[isipwater]

I don't have much experience in woodstoves, however, I am very satisfied with my new Lopi Endeavor. Here is what I like about it:

Has bypass damper: eliminates back puffing on starting and reloading. Also makes it very easy to clean the pipe since you don't have to take the baffle apart.
Firebox size: 2.2 cf
Wood/log size: 18" either north to south or east to west for fast or slow burns.
Low emissions: only 1.9 grams/smoke/hr
Can heat up to 2000 sqft. It heats my entire house at 1500 sqft, comfortably.
Burn time: Up to 10 hours. I have no problem getting overnight burns.
Low clearances: Corner-wall to stove is 6.5" with a insulated pipe for your configuration.
Did I mention the bypass damper? I really appreciate that feature!
Made in the USA
My price was $2146

Good luck in your search.

 

[pma1123]

Appreciate your honest feedback on the Lopi Endeavor.
I was looking at the super 27 step top also, which it looks like Lopi Endeavor has this design by default.
Its also in that exact same size/application as the super 27, and very similar price. Same firebox volume, similar burn time estimates, log lengths, clearances, etc.
It has been verified that it will fit my space and hearth situation.
I did think the trap door ash system on the PE was slick, and some other fit/finish things were pretty nice, even down to the door latch smoothness.

But your feedback also points out the importance of at least knowing my other options. This is a good thing; as a consumer I tend to see what I like and get impulsive...

Question for isipwater...do you run a circulating blower? Also; outside or inside air intake? Legs or pedestal?

Also, not sure if the PE's are as easy to do a bottom-up sweep with a sooteater, or how user friendly the baffle assy is in this regard.
The stove shop answered this question by saying how clean their PE super burns, and I shouldn't have to worry about midseason cleaning.
Not a dig against the stove shop, but sometimes a quick sweep helps the stove user sleep easier at night whether it was needed or not, so it is a part of my selection criteria.

 

[begreen]

The entire baffle system is removable by pulling one pin in the PE. Then you have a straight shot for the sooteater. If you are burning dry wood properly your stove shop is correct, an annual cleaning usually is sufficient.

Both the PE and the Lopi are great stoves. You would not regret having either. However, I will say that I would not pay extra for the PE ash dump system. We find it inconvenient and never use it.

 

[isipwater]

For the Endeavor we have:

No blower
Inside air intake
Pedestal

I chose not to do the blower and outside air intake due to info from the following website. I have found no informational website about burning wood like it:

http://www.woodheat.org/

I agree with begreen. I did a mid season clean but there wasn't much in the pipe.

 

[Grisu]

Appreciate your honest feedback on the Lopi Endeavor.
I was looking at the super 27 step top also, which it looks like Lopi Endeavor has this design by default.
Its also in that exact same size/application as the super 27, and very similar price. Same firebox volume, similar burn time estimates, log lengths, clearances, etc.
It has been verified that it will fit my space and hearth situation.
I did think the trap door ash system on the PE was slick, and some other fit/finish things were pretty nice, even down to the door latch smoothness.

But your feedback also points out the importance of at least knowing my other options. This is a good thing; as a consumer I tend to see what I like and get impulsive...

Question for isipwater...do you run a circulating blower? Also; outside or inside air intake? Legs or pedestal?

Also, not sure if the PE's are as easy to do a bottom-up sweep with a sooteater, or how user friendly the baffle assy is in this regard.
The stove shop answered this question by saying how clean their PE super burns, and I shouldn't have to worry about midseason cleaning.
Not a dig against the stove shop, but sometimes a quick sweep helps the stove user sleep easier at night whether it was needed or not, so it is a part of my selection criteria.

I have the PE Super insert and could not be happier. A bottom-up sweep is pretty simple although getting the baffle to fit right onto the airsupply channel in the back can take a few tries. What people say about the long burn times of the Super is true. I have woken up in the morning after ~9 hours of burning and the blower was still going. However, I currently heat about 1300 sqft of a moderately insulated home in Vermont with it and the Super starts to struggle when the outside temps get to single digits. I have no problem to supplement some heat then but if you plan on relying solely on woodheat you may want to look for a slightly larger stove (if that would fit in your space). Since you also seem to look for a budget friendly stove I want to point out that Englander stoves will come out with a medium size (2.45 cu ft firebox) stove this summer. Price is supposed to be less than $1000. Here is a picture: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...6-4-7-on-the-mall.112056/page-12#post-1577545
Not sure about the dimensions; you may have to contact Englander stoves for that.

Another also somewhat inexpensive option may be the Napoleon 1400. It is 25.5" wide and has a 6" clearance from corner to sidewall. Napoleons like good draft, though. Having the minimum flue lengths seems to be a must with them.

 

[Spud Monkey]

For the Endeavor we have:

No blower
Inside air intake
Pedestal

I chose not to do the blower and outside air intake due to info from the following website. I have found no informational website about burning wood like it:

http://www.woodheat.org/

I agree with begreen. I did a mid season clean but there wasn't much in the pipe.

Have to say the reason to put a OAK on is the heat your wood stove put outs will be sucked back in the wood stove up the pipe. How about instead with OAK suck cool outside air in wood stove heat it up which then fills room up with warm air. Unless you got a bunch cold spots somewhere in house you need to suck air from and replaced with warm air., just be sure to move the inlet tube around as they warm up. If outside cooler air fed to a fire doesn't help wood burn hotter then I guess the whole cold air intake systems on vehicles is hoax...

 

[pma1123]

On the topic of cooler air for internal combustion engines, cooler air is denser air and in NA engines it displaces a given volume of airflow during the intake event. With temperature drop, the air density goes up so the relative amount of oxygen taken in goes up, even though the engine is still pulling in the same volume of air. If you have enough air density increase, it needs to be matched with additional fuel or it has a leaning-out effect. This is why you have to re-jet richer in cooler temps, and lean out when warmer to get your chainsaw to rev-out.

With a woodstove, you have a depleting solid fuel source, and you control the 'shutter' for airflow. Varying the air density would really only affect the volume of air being taken through the air intake at a given combustion rate.

As for OAK in woodstoves, the benefits certainly make sense for having a positive pressure rather than a partial vaccum due to intake air coming from the living space. I think largely because it is an added expense, and for many DIY'ers it is a challenging install project many people opt to run with inside air intake. Also depending on house sealing, it may be a necessity. For me, I'm looking at having to go through a brick wall to get the OAK installed. I'm handy enough, but reluctant to go drilling.

 

[Woody Stover]

Cool stove. Blatz...heh-heh. Back in my younger days in Milw, when funds were low my buddies and I would hit all four brewery tours in an afternoon. With a couple, three beers at the end of each one, we were adequately primed to begin the evening's activities without having depleted our resources.

 

[pma1123]

woody stover - You guys were a resourceful bunch!


I wound up with a PE Alderlea T5 from the fine folks at Chimney Sweep.
Thanks everyone for your help and advice!

 

[begreen]

Congratulations. I think you are really going to like that stove. Take some beauty pics when it is installed and burning.

This summer will be a good time to address leaky windows and doors. Tightening up the house is putting money in the bank.