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Researchers map out an alternative energy future for New York

Post in 'The Green Room' started by sesmith, Mar 16, 2013.

  1. sesmith

    sesmith Member

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  2. Augie

    Augie Feeling the Heat

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    Study has some serious holes, first to jump out at me was the 3.2 billion climate change costs—such as coastal erosion and extreme weather damage that will be saved, this assumes that there are no factors outside NY that affect the climate inside NY. Same with Air Quality. Prevailing winds are westerlies, until Detroit, Ohio, Indiana and western Pennsylvania clean up there act the 4000 deaths saves and $33 billion are both pipe dreams, oh you will get a fraction of that but not much..... Overly Optimistic study by those wearing rose colored glasses is Overly Optimistic.

    These should be pursued not solely, but in tandem with extracting the current natural resources. IMHO
    johnny1720 likes this.
  3. EatenByLimestone

    EatenByLimestone Minister of Fire

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    And where does he plan to put all of these wind turbines? I can't wait until the greenies get all over them going into the migration corridors. The spots with the birds are the spots with the wind. Except for the ADK mountains, in which its nearly impossible to put a cell tower up much less a wind farm.

    [​IMG]
  4. sesmith

    sesmith Member

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    semipro likes this.
  5. EatenByLimestone

    EatenByLimestone Minister of Fire

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    When has logic mattered to an ubergreenie?
  6. woodgeek

    woodgeek Minister of Fire

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    band recovery map is going to follow both bird pop density AND human pop density (or at least birder/hunter density). Both ducks and humans like to live near water....seems like turbines are already going to be rural area anyways....don't see the problem here.
  7. EatenByLimestone

    EatenByLimestone Minister of Fire

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    The bird hunters are going to go where the birds are. The birds are going to go to where the habitat is. Most of the bird habitat is not in urban areas. The ducks were just an example... use warblers, owls, falcons or herons if you want. Heck, grackels are a protected species.

    Let me give you an example. It's a large area of fallow and abandoned fields about an hour and a half north of here. It would be great for a wind farm, the wind could swoop down and produce lots of power. It will never happen though. It's being used by short eared owls and northern harriers as a place to forage during the winter. http://www.winterraptorfest.com/about-grasslands/

    The moment he decides to put a wind farm up he's going to be hit with lawsuits from every environmental group in the nation. He going be doing Environmental Impact Statements for the next 20 years. So you say fine, lets put them off shore where there are fewer animals for it to affect. The cry of NIMBY will be deafening.

    I know they are working on tidal turbines in the Hudson already, but are having trouble with the blades being sheared off. I think the wave devices are a great idea.

    While I'd love to see many of the things on that list come to be, I don't believe I'll see any of it. If the Gov. can't decide if he wants to go after natural gas due to pressure from environmentalists I don't see him taking large scale wind farm action for the same reasons.

    Matt
  8. woodgeek

    woodgeek Minister of Fire

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    I read the plan as a bit of a 'lets pencil out a renewable fueled future', not a plan that we would actually build. These are the same guys that did a US plan a few years ago in SciAm. Useful to know that it could be done, figure when it does get done it will look a little different.
    Joful likes this.
  9. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Matt, that's not quite right. Waterfowl is going to go where food is plentiful, regardless of whether man is there or not. Of course cities are out for large migrations (no food unless you are a dumpster scavenger), but large lakes, wetlands and water bodies (like Puget Sound) are not, in spite of the proximity of man. One thing that marine biologists are watching closely here is the affects of increased ocean water acidification as it works its way up the food chain. We are seeing huge decreases in waterfowl populations that depend on tiny shrimp and other invertebrates with exoskeltons. With no food there are no birds.
  10. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    That correlation is not quite correct. There are major wind corridors to the west of the waterfowl corridors. Birds tend to follow major waterways and food sources.

    us_windmap_80meters_820w.jpg

    Take a look at the winds today at this cool real time site:
    http://hint.fm/wind/
  11. Joful

    Joful Minister of Fire

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    What I find most amusing about this is that NY city was also once "a large area of fallow and abandoned fields... used by short eared owls and northern harriers." The guy setting up a wind turbine on your field is no more guilty of stealing habitat than the residents of New York city, he's only the last one to the party.

    Sort of similar to the way everyone feels about anyone building in their neighborhood, after they did.

    JustWood likes this.
  12. semipro

    semipro Minister of Fire

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    Having been quantified against other threats and put into context (graph below) its seems a bit silly to even bring up birds when discussing wind turbines.
    If we really wanted to save some birds we'd start designing buildings and lighting differently.
    [​IMG]
  13. Havendalefarm

    Havendalefarm Member

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    Well we are right on a flyway and the had no trouble putting up a 300ft cooling tower for the Nuke plant. We could have wind also but same Nuke plant doesn't want it so it will never happen. May happen north of hear but the same folks that can look down the lakeshore and see a huge cooling tower and a 10,000 ft high cloud of steam don't want to look out and see a windmill. I have yet to have a goose fly into a silo on or farm.
  14. EatenByLimestone

    EatenByLimestone Minister of Fire

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    And when was this nuke cooling tower put up? The last nuclear power plant to be started in the US was in the 70s.

    I like the idea of wind, tides, solar, nuclear, etc. I just don't see it happening anytime soon in NY. Cuomo is waiting for "The Science" to come in before he makes a decision. Enough "Science" has not come in in the last few years.

    Matt
    Joful likes this.
  15. Havendalefarm

    Havendalefarm Member

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    If I remember right the cooling tower wasn't finished until the mid eighties. Our county has come out against most renewable energy products. They favor more nukes, would bend over forwards to get them here. Shot down a big wind project that was to use existing infrastructure. New Nukes won't happen though, one reason is that the dry cask storage is already leaking tritium, though the economics just won't work either.I am just glad we don't have the threat of fracking in my area.
  16. EatenByLimestone

    EatenByLimestone Minister of Fire

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    A few years ago I would have put money on the chance new nuke projects would be started. After the tsunami I don't think there will be any new projects any time soon. It's a shame. I believe there are ways to process nuclear waste so it can still be used.
  17. youngstr

    youngstr Guest

    There are wind turbines going up all over the Southern Tier of NYS. There are wind farms in Cohocton and Howard with many adjacent towns having projects in the planning stages. I believe there is one over by Olean as well. My father jokes that between the fracking/turbines they won't be able to drink the water and once they go outside he'll get hit with dead bird parts falling from the sky!
    milleo likes this.
  18. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    So very true. Our neighbor's house kills about 25 birds a year. It has big north facing windows that are right on a flyway. Great for a view but not for the birds.
  19. oldspark

    oldspark Guest

    The bird thing is over blown, I have been working on turbines for 14 years and the number of birds killed does not amount to a hill of beans, cars kill way more birds than wind turbines.
  20. EatenByLimestone

    EatenByLimestone Minister of Fire

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    Guys, your're approaching this from the wrong direction. You are using logic and reason. They don't apply in an emotional topic. The people who will be protesting this aren't coming from a logical frame of mind and certainly won't be reasonable.

    Matt
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  21. EatenByLimestone

    EatenByLimestone Minister of Fire

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    I was told something yesterday that I think you might be interested in.

    A friend was offered a position in Western NY hiding dead animals (birds and bats) on wind farms. I guess when they do studies on mortality they hide animals on the grounds and see how many are found. If they hide 7 and only find 2 they know that that they are missing 5 of every 7 animals that are truly killed at the wind farms. I don't think he's going to take it, but I thought you might find the story interesting. I never knew that they paid people to hide dead animals, or how they came to the numbers of birds killed at each site but it makes sense.

    Matt
  22. oldspark

    oldspark Guest

    Sounds like BS to me, I know they hire people to LOOK for dead birds.
  23. EatenByLimestone

    EatenByLimestone Minister of Fire

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    Why would he make that up?

    What would he prove by it?

    Matt
  24. Joful

    Joful Minister of Fire

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    Next time I'm unhappy with my job, I'm going to think about the guy who's job it is to run around Schenectady in January hiding dead bird carcasses.
  25. oldspark

    oldspark Guest

    Dont know, but what I do know is there is not very many birds killed by turbines so why bother trying to hide them.

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