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roofing advice

Post in 'DIY and General non-hearth advice' started by webbie, Sep 15, 2007.

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  1. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    One car detached garage 12x22 - one of those that is just about falling down...at my daughters.

    4/12 pitch - no heat, etc.

    no gutters, no inside ceiling, etc - just a shed really.

    I am removing two layers of shingles, fixing any sheathing and then will install new shingles.

    Do I have to use that ice blocking stuff along the bottom, or is just the 15lb felt and then one layer of shingles backwards (or however we used to do it) OK? I do have a permit on the job, but nothing was specified.

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  2. nshif

    nshif New Member

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    Paging Hog
  3. keyman512us

    keyman512us Member

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    I'll let hog "weigh in" on this one... But depending on how much of a rake it has...I would do the "first course" using bitchathane ('Ice and water shield')...
  4. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah, that was really my question - the stuff was 50 bucks for a roll (enough to do it), so I didn't want to buy it unless needed - it seemed to indicate on the package that mostly heated areas were what caused the need for it......

    On a "cheap" job like this (this garage is almost a tear down), I figured maybe I could save the 50 bucks. Hopefully Hog and Elk will weigh in on this.....hey, 50 bucks is 50 bucks.
  5. keyman512us

    keyman512us Member

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    Well... You be the judge on that one. From the sounds of it it sounds like that poor little garage is "running on borrowed time" somewhat. Perhaps all the more reason for the 'ice & water' shield.

    At a 4-12 pitch, uninsulated etc... IMHO... Add a little snow on the roof and a fairly sunny warm day and it's that garages' worst enemy. As small of a structure as it is....regardless of how good the venting is (unless of course the gables are wide open 'daylight'...lol) there is gonna be some potential issues. On most of these style garages usually the rakes are rotted out (moisture working under the shingles)...

    Even though it's only around four squares...I like to do a job once and be done with it. From the sounds of it...it will be last roof ever going to go on it...$50 bucks?? Cheap insurance...

    Ahhh...It's up to you to decide!
  6. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah, I think there is gonna be some sheathing and rafters that need a little work- you are correct that the "rakes" are rotted on at least one side, and probably on the other (covered with alum. on one side, so I can't see).....

    Of course, it's been up for about 80 years and only two layers of shingles, so we can do the math there. There is more reason for that rotting than lack of ice and water shield! You can actually go inside the garage and look up and see daylight through all the rain grooves!

    Sunday we are gonna rip 'er off - I have a feeling that the new one is not going to be going on, though, because I'll have to do some wood patching first....and I'll have to make certain no one falls through the rotted sheathing while removing the old shingles!

    You know how it is with these old buildings - they are never like you think they are - either better or worse (most likely worse)....
  7. Firewoodguy.com

    Firewoodguy.com New Member

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    If its one of those "ready to fall down" as you stated. I would suggest just use roll roofing due to the condition of the shed and the low pitch roof. Roll roofing is cheep and last about 8-10 years. If you want to use shingles, one row of felt would help but using ice-shield would be better.
    Firewoodguy
  8. keyman512us

    keyman512us Member

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    Naghhh! Say it ain't so! lol

    Old building with an old roof??? Been there...done that. It really gets fun when you have to decide "Should we put down plywood and 'do it right' or skip that because the thing can barely hold the weight it has on it now???"

    Yeah..."Fun and games" when it comes to roofing. My house is 100+ years old and has a slate roof, luckily, (knock on wood) it's in pretty good shape given the age. I'm always on the lookout for slates on the ground...in ten years i've only seen three (pieces) anyway.

    Talk about fun??? Slate is definately good for that! ;)

    I was talking to an 'old timer' in the neighborhood..."You got a good roof there kid...take care of it". He said to me.

    Having a slate roof can cause some concern....but at the same time it's a good piece of mind too. Solid as stone.
  9. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    On an old shell of a garage? Why waste the extra money? First off you have no gutters. The only reason for Ice & Water shield at the gutter edge (eave) is for when gutters are installed and in the winter, melt off from the roof above the gutter runs down, refreezes in the gutter to the point the gutter fills to top with ice & then the meltoff hits that ice damn and backs up under the shingles. If you have not gutter, no Ice & Water shield needed. Theres nothing to create an ice damn, so no backing up of water & ice. I bet you get some major icycles off that garage?
    Save your money. Unless your going to install gutters any time soon. Plus its not heated, so no escaped heat from soffit area melting anything.
    Save your cash man. If the garage has no leaks over the years, and that wood is not stained or rotted at the bottom. Then there is your answer.
    I will agree that 4/12 ain't sheet. I used to use a 4" exposure on 4/12 pitch roofs. An added inck of coverage helped alot. The manufacturers used to spec no less than 4/12 pitch. And 4/12 & 5/12 used to be spec's to a 4" exposure instead of the normal 5". This is standard shingles sizes. The metrics are like 5-3/8" exposure. Something like that. Long story short, no leaks or stained wood, no Ice & Water needed. If you find rot or stains. Then you may want to consider it.

    Save yourself some grief and don't consider roll roofing. I will merely say it is the Volzgang (spelling) of the roofing materials.
    I seen it recommended, just my opinion of course, and have tore enough off. I had to redo all my old mans valleys due to roll roofing being used by builder.
    Also, in your travels look around and you won't seem it much, and when you do, it on a doghouse, or dilapidated shed etc.
    Its a poor mans roof & you will only get what you pay for.
  10. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    Slate roofs are the Cadillac of roofs. Keep it maintained and it will outlive you & your kids & grandkids.
  11. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks, Hog...

    Yes, I have put a lot of roll roofing on in my days, and it served me well in those situations where you can't see it and you just need the lowest cost and quickest job - and even then we used the double coverage and cemented the seams.

    As I said, there is rot and leakage, but since you can see daylight through the roof at a lot of areas, I suspect the rot is due to the fact that water has been getting under those shingle layers from above for years.

    So what is this about exposure? I'm guess at that 4/12 since it looks like an easy walk-on. It has been shingled twice and I don't think it is 3/12

    So I guess I will just follow the directions on the shingle package?

    Do folks still use an upside down one along the rake......or do they use the starter strip that comes with some shingles?

    Dang, I really hope I don't have to plywood the roof - because then I will question the rafters, and then there is no end. Maybe I will be smart and start by removing only one side so I see what I have in store. Then I can always give it a temp tar-paper while I stew about how far to go.
  12. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    I hate to say it, but more info needed LOL.
    I missed the part of it leaking in several ares. What are the rafters centers? 16" or 24"? What thickness (I'm guessing plywood) or if old enough planks?
    The problem with a low slope shingle roof is, if the deck sags between the rafter, then it creates a small pool, and with not enough slope, the water looks for the lowest spot to run to. If the roof is leaking higher up from the eave, then ice & water shield will ohly help down there, but not where the leaks up higher are. If the shigles are deteriorated enough, the daylight you see might be from missing chunks of shingles and not necessarily the slope.
    I suggest tearing off one side (prolly the worst side if there is one worse than the other, and see exactly what you are dealing with. Just get some 1" x 3" and a good tarp when done tearing off, and lay tarp out & nail the 1"x3"'s around the entire perimeter and vertically down the center in a few rows. that will hold the fort down until you decide your course of action. If I lived closer I'd be happy to come take a look & prolly end up helping. If you get stuck for help, I can prolly set a weekend away and come up.
    Ok, if the holes are small, and you really just want to keep the cost down, just use some heavy gauge metal, like the stuff we make block off plate at HD or Lowes, and cut a few inches larger than the holes and nail the patches over the holes, then you can shingle over them. If the holes are large & numerous. You going to have to replace some wood. If the leaks are truly due to the low slope, you might want to consider Ice & water shielding the hole thing before shingling.
    I have a feeling your going to find a mixture of really badly deteriorated shingles, with decking showing through & a few sag spots in the decking itself.
    As far as 4" exposure. I for some reason think the shingle manufacturers did away with warranting the 4 or 5/12 pitches & less. Standard expaosure ( the part of the tabs you see) is 5", sometime 5-3/8". Depending on standard or metric shingles. As I said before on 4/12's it was spec'd to have a 4" exposure. Which means there is 1" extra from each shingle under the next two courses. Makes it harder for water to back up under the shingles and run under the tops.
    If I am making this more confusing, let me know & I'll draw a picture. As far as the starter course (upside down shingle)at the eave or first course. Yes they are necessary. If you were to just put your first row or course on without a starter course, the seams between the singles would leak onto the decking because there is no courses under it.
    The starter course is merely a shingle flipped upside down, cut 6" off the end before you run the first one. Don't forget to leave 1" hanger past the rake or side of the roof. This overhang keeps water from running under the sides as it runs down the roof. Some put a vertical run of shingles along the rakes also, I do not usually. Creates a hump when you run the courses over them. Leave an extra 1" at the rake also. Chalk lines really make this much easier.
    You will pop your lines so that as your shooting your shingles, the exposure will be 4" instead of 5". I used to pop lines at every 20" to follow for 5" exposure, so every 9 " or 19" should give you 4" exposure. Its been a while, and easier for me to do, than explain. And verticals were always 29" & 35" from the side I start shooting at. which for me is right to left since I am right handed. This is for 3 tabs. If you use dimensionals, no tabs, means no pic lines, and less space for water to find. Dimensionals are easier to put down, & more easy to hide any oops. More expensive though.
    You may have the rake mixed up with the eave. The rake is the side. The eave is where a gutter normally would be hung or bottom in other words.
    Starters have never since I have known come with the shingles. If you are using 3 tabs, you just flip them over and use as starters. Or Ask the supply house if they have any junk bundles you could buy for starter strips. Sometimes they will give them to you. Color doesn't matter as they are not seen.
    12' x 22' is only a 2.64 sq. Thats a very small roof. Order 3 to 3-1/2 sq for the job. For waste, hips, starters, and some left over for a , just in case blow off, or limb hit the roof. I'm sorry if I am bouncing all over, I am wooped, did my plumbing & put up another wall of 8" t&g;pine. Back hurts & just now finally chillin.
    Ask any questions, I'll answer best I can. I'll draw a pic, whatever ya need. If it would be easier by phone, just PM me. I have free long distance. Well not free, but unlimited. What is easy in my mind from doing over & over, might not be as easily understood as I am thinking it is. However I can help, just lemme know.

    When ya get a chance post a few shots of the garage. I can guess at the pitch with a good photo.
  13. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    Oh crap I forgot one more thing.
    Since I have retired from roofing. Some new products have come out. I don't know alot about them. But one in particular might be right up your alley.
    Heres a link to the site. Called Shark Skin underlayment. I have been told its price is in comparison with tar paper. Thats hearsay, I cannot say for sure.

    http://www.sharkskin.us/tek9.asp
  14. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Great minds think alike.

    I told my son-in-law that we will remove one side first and see what we are dealing with!

    I have plenty of copper and other sheet metal for small patches if needed. I'll take some pics tommorow, but I think things will be very evident after about 1 hours of ripping. Luckily, it is close to the ground so all work is relatively safe.
  15. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Great minds think alike.

    I told my son-in-law that we will remove one side first and see what we are dealing with!

    I have plenty of copper and other sheet metal for small patches if needed. I'll take some pics tommorow, but I think things will be very evident after about 1 hours of ripping. Luckily, it is close to the ground so all work is relatively safe.
  16. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    You prolly already know this but, if you can see the decking & rafters from underneath, take not of where real bad spots are, and at least try to walk on the rafter up top when tearing off. I have gone though roofs up to my armpits, and its not fun. Almost always something, Nail, wood pike, etc gets ya good. Just be wary before you know were the bad spots are. I seen guys fall from 8 feet and do some serious damage. Its not the fall, its the impact upon landing.
  17. keyman512us

    keyman512us Member

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    I'm getting 'dizzy' following this one...lol

    Hog... He also stated above he has aluminum ice barriers on one side.

    I'de be willing to bet the eaves are 'junk' (fairly notorious on them thare old one car garages).

    80 year old garage??? Betting on a 'plank deck'. If thats the case...see if it will 'hold a nail'...if it does...buy a few 1 x 6 rough cut boards and just "replace the horrible spots". Plywood? (you said it yourself Web...the garage is a potential 'tear down candidate') Forget the plywood...if you do decide on plywood...go with 1/4 Loo (laun?) just to keep the "smooth look" (and keep the weight down)...but Yeah...as Hog suggested...

    Some pictures would help in the discussion... ;)

    Rip it...Take some pics...and then tarp it.

    Web??? Out of curiousity??? Is their place close by your homestead or is there some "travelin" involved???
  18. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    Agreed on the planks. Which makes it easier. Problem might be, they may be true boards. If thats the case replace the bad with One by's & fill in the low spots with a shingle. Usually makes it perfect level with the old true planks.
  19. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Here are some pics....

    I decided against the ice and snow - no gutters, and no heat.

    Removed both sides today, repaired a lot of small holes and areas where board were split - used copper and brass pieces I had around the shop. Placed drip edge on, and tar papered one side. It is definitely at least 4/12, maybe 5 - I almost lost my son-in-law when he danced off it (tar paper slipped under him), but he is a hockey player and just "went with the fall", landed on his feet and said he was OK - he has to play hockey tonight!

    Almost all the wood was good! Had to replace a small piece of fascia on one side- and other other side does not even have a facia (see pic), but I will nail something up there to take the aluminum facing which will go there - I'm going to side over those vertical shingles.

    OK, so almost time to shingle. What do I do at the peak? It does have gable vents and is not that tight - Do I need to vent the ridge? If so, I'd have to cut some wood away, since the board meet at the top - heck, it lasted 80 years as it is.....

    Is not, do I just run the shingles up to about an inch shore, and then use the old method of cutting tabs and folding them over the ridge?

    Attached Files:

  20. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Also, technique......

    I'm getting old -and am somewhat, but no totally comfortable on the roof with nothing to "save" me....I can do the starter course from the step ladder, but should I use some sort of roof jack - or just a nailed two-by-four at the bottom for safety....of course, I'd have to patch a few nail or screw holes that way.
  21. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    Decking look pretty damn good for 80 years old. I bet you found the nails don't come out of the planks as easy as they do in plywood. And two roofs worth makes it even more a pain in the arse. That pitch by looking at photos mind you look s to me like at least a 6 maybe more. No need to short course. Just run 5" exposure. Theres plenty of pitch there, and that no wheres near a 4. I would bet somewheres between a 6 and 8/12 pitch.

    At the peak, just run both sides up enough that your tar line is about 1" or more above where your hips will cover. Yes just cut the 3 tabs into separate hips. Chalk a line on one side, and as you nail the hips on, fold them in half, not creasing them, just a nice arch, they will lay better over the peak & be much easier to line up.
    Start the hips from the furthest point (back?) of the roof from normal view on the ground(front?). That way you don't see all the lil seams & lines on the hips. If your not running ridge vent, then the side you finish shingling on, just let the top flap up & over the peak back to the other side and nail it tight. Just make sure its not so long that it will hang out the bottom of the hips when you install them. I doubt you need any ridge vent, its not living space. The gable vents should do fine. If you really want to put ridge vent on, if there is soffit under the eaves, it must be vented for the ridge vent to be effective( the two go hand in hand, without one the other is useless). And yes you will want to rip (cut) about 1"-1-1/2" off the top board each side. I suggest, when you side the the garage. Get a good size triangular gable vent for each rake side, cut holes where existing ones are, and install the newer bit larger gable vents. That should be plenty. Those ones there look like heating duct registers, and are a bit small.
  22. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    If you have 2 step ladders and a nice plank, it will be easier to run the first few courses from there. Then either use 2" x 4"'s or roof jacks. First off, either one you use, I wouldn't nail through the new shingles face. I lift the tabs up where nailing and slide the jack or board up under enough that when I nail in INTO A RAFTER, when I am done, I pull the nails from the board, then just lay the tab back down & wallah holes covered. If your using roof jacks, they slide off the nails when removed (don't pound the nails home) and then after jacks are removes, then pound nails home. Both done under a few tabs, then no holes and no caulk needed. If you do want to just nail a board through the shingles, after pulling the nails, put a lil caulk under the tabs that were nailed through, then just set the tab back down over the caulk. It will ooze out, wipe excess away. And if you want to get real fancy, I always rubbed two shingle tabs faces together and rubbed enough of the colored granulars off for a handful, then sprinkle it on the top of the caulk, and press in a lil bit. Once done, you will never be able to find that hole or caulk again. :) Lots of tricks of the trade LOL.
  23. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks, Hog -----

    Yeah, I'll set up a board with the step ladders or possibly even rent a piece or two of scaffold since the rental place is around the corner....that way, I'll be able to stage the shingles up there also.

    Yes, I guess it is 5 or 6/12 - maybe I am not getting as old as I think....could stand and stay on it easily, but would not want to to do so without safety measures if it were much higher!

    Soffits are vented - that whole damn garage is vented - maybe I'll use a little of that peak venting stuff - the mesh that you put under the top shingle cap. It's not a very hot building, as the higher house and trees shade it.

    thanks again.
  24. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    Anytime, glad to help.
    You could get the cobra vent or similar, spaghetti like ridge vent, that you unroll , tack down, and shingle over. You can use the tabs for hips as usual. If your not real big on looks, and I know I said in other threads to not use, But economically, the aluminum 10' length ridge vent is prolly cheapest. It is only a garage after all. And no hips needed. just cut your plywood to have a space for air as usual, then nail the aluminum ridge cap over top, caulk nail heads, Done. I would at least use ring or twist shank nails with that stuff. Regular roofing nails tend to back out after time with this ridge vent.
    If you nail a few boards strategicaly horizontally across decking over the tar paper as you go. You can set your bundles of shigles out and not have to go up & down a ladder. But on an 2-1/2 sq roof. Your only looking at 10 or so bundles for the whole job anyways. :)
  25. velvetfoot

    velvetfoot Minister of Fire

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    Would a sheet metal roof worked here?
    The snow usually just slides off of mine after a day or so.
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