running a boiler without storage

[stratton]

Bigger boiler because you don't have storage is a bad idea if he is suggesting that for longer burn times due to the bigger firebox.

I ran my Econoburn 200 for the 1st year without storage. It can be done but it takes a lot of attention if you want to keep the boiler running some what well. If someone is around during the day it is best to just put in a few pieces multiple times a day. You will still get a lot of creosote build up. The difference in convenience and boiler condition when running storage is amazing, I would not want to go back.

Initially the Garn might cost twice as much but I would predict that you will not be real happy running without storage. At some point you will probably want to up grade your system. Once you buy tank, loading valve, expansion tank, crap load of large valves, fittings and pipe, no power dump set up and other miscellaneous parts the price gap will narrow greatly or even make the Garn cheaper. That does not even factor in how much easier it is to install the Garn.

gg

Tj. Look up slim
Jim at portage and main he's on outdoor wood furnace . Com he's the best

 

[Mike Fromme]

Yes, kind of curious on the reasoning of a bigger boiler for no storage. I would think that would lead to increased creosote production & maintenance from increased periods of idling - and increased amounts of fuel in the box while it was idling.

Maybe he has some extra 60's that he needs to sell?

 

[flyingcow]

Get the Garn Jr and don't look back. No matter what you get for a boiler you need seasoned wood or you're gonna pee money up the flue.

 

[JP11]

Get the Garn Jr and don't look back. No matter what you get for a boiler you need seasoned wood or you're gonna pee money up the flue.

Read that again!

It's PHYSICS. Water doesn't burn. Any salesman telling you that it's ok to burn 'green' wood is a shark! RUN!

Having an outdoor unit puts A LOT of your heat loss out into the elements. This is a price you will pay OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER again... year after year.

JP

 

[tjvt]

Get the Garn Jr and don't look back. No matter what you get for a boiler you need seasoned wood or you're gonna pee money up the flue.

I understand burning wood with more than optimal moisture content sacrifices efficiency, amongst other drawbacks. I am not trying to argue physics.

Moving on...

I see you run a Tarm, and the Tarm SP 40 is one of my front-runners, yet you're endorsing the Garn. Curious as to why. Just the internal storage, or where else does the Garn outshine the competition?

 

[goosegunner]

Honestly I think any of the boilers here would burn "more than optimal moisture content wood". They would do it rather poorly just like the boilers that salesmen pitch as being able to do it. The results will be the same with more, smoke, creosote, and wood consumed to heat desired load.

gg

 

[hobbyheater]

The GARN is a complete unit storage and firebox integrated. It has been around for 30 years and carries parts for its early units. It's
efficient and simplistic. The video above is of a bigger unit but the principal is the same.

 

[flyingcow]

I understand burning wood with more than optimal moisture content sacrifices efficiency, amongst other drawbacks. I am not trying to argue physics.

Moving on...

I see you run a Tarm, and the Tarm SP 40 is one of my front-runners, yet you're endorsing the Garn. Curious as to why. Just the internal storage, or where else does the Garn outshine the competition?

because the garn is a nice setup. but they're both on even plainfield in my opinion.I've had very good luck with my unit in my tank.also I have burn wood up to 25 percent moisture content. Wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be I struggled through it.but once my would get down to 17 or 18 or sometimes less it's amazing how much less would you burn. one big advantage with my unit over a ggarn is inside of a 45 minutes from throwing a match I have hot water flowing through my baseboard. hopefully this makes sense. Voice to text.

 

[tjvt]

because the garn is a nice setup. but they're both on even plainfield in my opinion.I've had very good luck with my unit in my tank.also I have burn wood up to 25 percent moisture content. Wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be I struggled through it.but once my would get down to 17 or 18 or sometimes less it's amazing how much less would you burn. one big advantage with my unit over a ggarn is inside of a 45 minutes from throwing a match I have hot water flowing through my baseboard. hopefully this makes sense. Voice to text.

Trying to understand the differences in these systems. The Garn needs to heat all of it's water before heating the house, whereas the Tarm will send heat immediately to the house and then dump excess heat into it's thermal storage once the house is satisfied?

 

[maple1]

Trying to understand the differences in these systems. The Garn needs to heat all of it's water before heating the house, whereas the Tarm will send heat immediately to the house and then dump excess heat into it's thermal storage once the house is satisfied?

Or it will send heat to both the house & storage if the house doesn't need all the heat being produced (most likely) - that is true of any gassifier/divorced storage setup, not just the Tarm. As I understand it (I have no experience with the Garn), it takes longer to produce 'useable' hot water on initial firing. I think that is generally because the HX is lower in the tank, so it has to heat more water before it gets hot up top (might not be the best explanation). Whereas a separate boiler produces useable hot water quicker as it has a much lower volume of water and it is pulled off the top of it. The Garn - I think - also does not stratify as well. I think generally it is said to really shine when using low-temp emitters, like in-floor radiant. It also has a very long very good track record, likely the longest out there - although Tarm has been around a long time also. It is also non-pressurized, which requires differing considerations.

 

[tjvt]

Or it will send heat to both the house & storage if the house doesn't need all the heat being produced (most likely) - that is true of any gassifier/divorced storage setup, not just the Tarm. As I understand it (I have no experience with the Garn), it takes longer to produce 'useable' hot water on initial firing. I think that is generally because the HX is lower in the tank, so it has to heat more water before it gets hot up top (might not be the best explanation). Whereas a separate boiler produces useable hot water quicker as it has a much lower volume of water and it is pulled off the top of it. The Garn - I think - also does not stratify as well. I think generally it is said to really shine when using low-temp emitters, like in-floor radiant. It also has a very long very good track record, likely the longest out there - although Tarm has been around a long time also. It is also non-pressurized, which requires differing considerations.

Hmmm....we're about 50/50 radiant/baseboard. Maybe not best suited to our application.

 

[muncybob]

From what I have read over the years here, P&M is one of the better OWB's if you do indeed decide to go that route. I have a friend that seems to be happy with his Central Boiler unit but he only has 1 year with it and I get the feeling that if he was having problems he wouldn't tell me about it since I did kinda warn him about CB's before he made the purchase.

I was in the same boat as you now when I purchased our boiler...didn't have the extra $$ for storage and I'm still not sure I can reconfigure my basement to put in any appreciable amount of storage...but it's still on the list. We'll be enterering season #6 this year with the WG. We usually burn from mid October to late April and the times I most wish I had storage is indeed in the shoulder seasons. At those times we burn a small load early in the morning and again in the evening and that supplies us with enough DHW(only 2 people) and heat to take the chill off. Getting more into mid shoulder season it sometimes becomes a PITA due to the prolonged period of time the boiler is idle and the need for heat although with good dry wood it can be off for 2 or sometimes 3 hours and refire no problem. Using marginal wood I found I lost a fire frequently and would have to get the MAP gas out to relight. Once into the true heating season it's pretty much smooth sailing now that I have the infamous "explosion" scenario eliminated.

So, would the WG run better with storage? Would I like to have storage? YES to both questions...can I live without storage fairly well...I think we have been doing so.

 

[flyingcow]

Now on my computer.

Storage is a nice convenience and it does help with efficiency. how much? It's been debated and some have posted some their own experience. Hopefully they will chime in. But storage does make it a little easier and more convenient at the very ;least. But in the deep of winter and a little practice, you'll be fine with out storage.

Garn vs gasser with storage? I can give you my experiences with my set up and i am sure Garn users will chime in too.they're the ones you want to hear from. My statement about 45 mins and I have heat flowing thru my BB, it's a nice thing to be able to do. Every system has it's plus' and minus's. You won't need to have the Garn up to temp to get heat from it. It will use whatever temp it has in its storage.

I think if you had a Garn, you'll learn when to fire to keep the house warm to your satisfaction. If you're 50/50 with BB and radiant, i would think you'll be all-set.

If you DIY storage, you'll save a few dollars compared to the Garn. If you buy storage, it'll be a wash.

I like my boiler very much. But i may buy a Garn Jr to heat my truck garage. It will be a toss up between that and a gasser. I do like the simplicity of the Garn. For instance, my boiler I have to scrub the tubes about evry 2 weeks. Garn? once a season. Thats with dry wood. You need to hear from Garn guys for more info.

BUT, you need dry wood no matter what. Just get 2 or 3 yrs wood ahead now. Then you'll be all set.


Also, please note, i am just a truck driver by trade. Not a heating guy. There are good well experienced people on this board. I'm really not one of them.

Here's what i know---I like my solo innova, support from Tarm has been very good. Unit is simple to operate. My storage works great. I like the tank, the HX's are impressive as hell. Tank dealer will stand behind his product.

I like the Garn...( I've said this before).it looks like mini sub, that's way coool.

One other rambling thought. I had an air sourced heat pump put in last year. Needed/wanted A/C, had the money to do it. We've also used that for our main heat the last month and a half. And did use it some this winter. It'll throw heat in the dead of winter, fairly inexpensive to run. Might be worth looking at.


Do you have your own wood supply, or do you have to buy it?

 

[tjvt]

We buy 90% of our wood. If I was to make a move right now, I'd buy the 2nd hand Tarm SP 40 (2 yrs old, never fired) for $6500, and put it in my garage w/o storage. At least I'll only be $12-13k into it, and I can always build the boiler room addition and add storage in the future. That will pay for itself in 4 years, then we can re-evaluate. Seems like the financially responsible approach for our situation.

 

[Fred61]

I like the Garn...( I've said this before).it looks like mini sub, that's way coool.

More like a dumpster.

If I had more of a heat load, and if I were ever going to replace my present set-up it would be a Garn however at my age I'm sure the Eko will outlast me. I already basically do the same thing as the Garn in that I heat the storage and draw my heat from the tank with an immersed copper coil heat exchanger. It offers simplicity and if I wanted to use non oxygen barrier radiant tubing it wouldn't cause any damage to my boiler.

 

[woodobsessed]

What is the cost of a Garn Jr.

 

[tjvt]

What is the cost of a Garn Jr.

pushing $13k to get it here with most necessary components, not including installation

 

[Floydian]

Hi tjvt,

I have not read this entire thread so maybe some of these things were already discussed but here is my take...

I had a really tough time deciding on a boiler without seeing several in person, in operation. While visiting family in SE PA I was able to check out several boilers first hand. This included Tarm Solo, EKO, Biomass and Varmebaronen. Also got a good look at a Garn 1500 locally at an Abbey. All very capable, no doubt. In the end I liked the Varm most and Dean at http://www.smokelessheat.com/ was also a big reason why chose the boiler I did.

The Garn always gets highly recommended and for good reason. It is often mentioned on this site that a down draft gasser plus storage usually comes close to same price as the all in one Garn. I would agree with this IF someone is hiring out the installation but for a DIY install along with a design optimized for simplicity, I feel a gasser plus storage can come in well under the price of any Garn, including the Jr. I have $15K in my entire heating system including 1500 sq ft of low temp radiant floor and all controls, pumps, expansion tanks, class A chimney, etc.(not counting my time obviously) I tried my darndest to justify a Garn but the only way I came close was if I was heating multiple houses with it. But this meant a lot of underground piping which is $$$ and has to be absolutely correct or else...... So I put a gasser plus storage in my not so efficient house and built a new super insulated house for my folks that has such a low heat load that there is no way to justify such an expensive heating system.

Sorry I'm rambling....so to get back on track I would recommend trying to see some boilers in person to help with the decision. I am really glad I was able to do so.

Now, you mention

We buy 90% of our wood.

With this being the case have you considered a pellet boiler? In particular I would say a Windhager Biowin. If I was in a situation where I had to buy cord wood I would really be leaning in this direction with your existing heat distribution and this setup would require substantially less of your time and effort.

Ultimately any decision is best made with a known heat load. Both in Btus/hr at design temp and MM Btus/year if possible. If you are not sure about these numbers than an accurate heat load calculation is the place to start. The foundation of any well designed heating system.

Noah

 

[Fred61]

About burning wood with a high moisture content: Most all of the consequences have been mentioned above except one. One thing I wanted to add when burning high moisture wood in a downdraft gasser is that you will get more "bridging" causing you to tend the fire more often. What happens is that the coals burn out from beneath the logs quicker than the wood will produce more to replace It, causing a large space beneath the fuel load and it must be poked (stirred, agitated) to maintain gassing.

 

[flyingcow]

I would look at pellets too. There can be goof rebates/incentives for a pellet boiler.

 

[tjvt]

I would look at pellets too. There can be goof rebates/incentives for a pellet boiler.

Haven't researched pellets at all. How does the cost of fuel compare? Do they have trucks that come by and fill your hopper or do you have to buy bags? Last year I thought I heard pellets were in short supply around here. Cordwood is always readily available.

 

[flyingcow]

I think you'll find pellets are very comparable to wood. Bulk delivery won't save you much, just more convienent. The shortage was mainly big box stores run out because of cold weather and did not want to order more in at the end and get stuck with them.

 

[maple1]

+1 and more on considering a pellet boiler. You certainly wouldn't have to worry about storage then - and would have most of the convenience of a fossil burner.

You will have to work the fuel cost thing out - using your local pellet prices/supply situation, and what you pay for wood. Also factor in your time & other costs in getting the wood you do buy, completely ready for burning.

Keep reading this place - all the info is here, you just have to take it all in & apply to your situation.

 

[tjvt]

+1 and more on considering a pellet boiler. You certainly wouldn't have to worry about storage then - and would have most of the convenience of a fossil burner.

You will have to work the fuel cost thing out - using your local pellet prices/supply situation, and what you pay for wood. Also factor in your time & other costs in getting the wood you do buy, completely ready for burning.

Keep reading this place - all the info is here, you just have to take it all in & apply to your situation.

The convenience is appealing. Depending on the pellet production process is somewhat disconcerting. I'll have to talk to a local supplier, and will be seeing Tarm today at the Forestry show. I'm sure they'll shed some light.

 

[flyingcow]

The convenience is appealing. Depending on the pellet production process is somewhat disconcerting. I'll have to talk to a local supplier, and will be seeing Tarm today at the Forestry show. I'm sure they'll shed some light.

Northeast Expo? That s fun. You're head will be full of ideas after that.