Short term future on firewood

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brooktrout

New Member
Dec 23, 2007
376
Hamden, NY
Well, I don't know about other places, but around here, firewood is quickly becoming a commodity. Prices have increased this year, from $150 split cord to $170 split cord, and triaxle loads are pushing $600-$650, up $100-$150 from a year ago. Mostly economy and fuel prices, I believe. These triaxle loads are also becoming difficult to obtain, as the economy slows and land clearing and logging in general slows. I've placed half a dozen calls today, and there is none to be found. A couple guys said they may have some in a month or two. I wouldn't be surprised to see a split cord go for $200 or more within 2-3 years. I know that in other places, it is already more than that, some less; it's all relative.
 
If you do an analysis of the real cost of a cord of CSD (cut, split, delivered) firewood, your spreadsheet will show that $200. gives very little margin for profit for the firewood dealer. There are nice calculations online and here to show that BTU for BTU a cord of wood could be as high as +$400. before parity with most fossil fuels.

Think it out: from stump to your yard. Tree is felled, slash usually cleaned up, logs moved/skidded to a yard for bucking to firewood length, split, piled, delivered. It's a tough, gritty, dangerous, low profit, all-weather business. Labor. Equipment. Insurance. Maintenance. Profit.

It is the "walk in the Indian's mocassin" thing: try getting just a tiny cord from the stump to your stove. $200. is going to look pretty cheap. Some firewood dealers buy log lengths from developers or loggers; most do not.

I hear some of our neighbors complaining about how much work burning with wood is: got to stack and carry that pile of delivered firewood into the house, then sweep up "the mess". Some whine about the "heavy macho work" ("not for girls" you know) to work up log lengths. %-P It's all relative.
 
At the risk of sounding rep,rep,rep,rep, repetitious. When you see it advertised in your local paper,specially if the price is really good-Jump On It. Expect it to be green,never seasoned. Another hint, if you offer to buy more than one cord csd, you can usually get the price reduced somewhat further. Stock up boys, the prices are going up, they have to along with the price of fuel.
 
around here i find endless amounts of free wood someone is always cutting down something or a tree is fallen in the neighborhood somewhere. my goal is to just buy 1 cord next yr and by 2009/20010 i want to burn all found wood wich seems to be about 2 to 3 cords for me for a full winter.
 
sonnyinbc said:
At the risk of sounding rep,rep,rep,rep, repetitious. When you see it advertised in your local paper,specially if the price is really good-Jump On It. Expect it to be green,never seasoned. Another hint, if you offer to buy more than one cord csd, you can usually get the price reduced somewhat further. Stock up boys, the prices are going up, they have to along with the price of fuel.

NO
At the risk of being rep correct: most firewood dealers HAVE to be honest: "seasoned" is seasoned; green is green. Learn the difference between green and just wet. It's a tough enough business not to have nickel and dimers chiseling pennies from a stone.
Milk is $5/ gallon; do you ask for it at $3. ? Petrol ? RAM ? Hanes u-pants ?
 
argus66 said:
around here i find endless amounts of free wood someone is always cutting down something or a tree is fallen in the neighborhood somewhere. my goal is to just buy 1 cord next yr and by 2009/20010 i want to burn all found wood wich seems to be about 2 to 3 cords for me for a full winter.


Biomass and cellulose-ethanol are going to be big players in the energy game very soon. "May your scrounging be great and everlasting"! Wood waste of all kinds will be hard to come by in the very near future. Stockpile all you can NOW. If I'm wrong you can thank me for the 5 year supply in your back yard later.
 
Prices are always going to be dependent on many factors, including the relative price of other fuels. One of the biggest factors is location - very related to availability.

Prices are currently on the decline here, as I would expect in many places. End of the season and folks want to grab what cash they can. I have already inquired and waiting on a response for a 20 yd roll-off cut logs. One guy says that he may just dump me one because he is loaded with work and just wants to keep it moving. Timing is everything my friends - well almost everything. Ya snooze u lose...
 
downeast said:
sonnyinbc said:
At the risk of sounding rep,rep,rep,rep, repetitious. When you see it advertised in your local paper,specially if the price is really good-Jump On It. Expect it to be green,never seasoned. Another hint, if you offer to buy more than one cord csd, you can usually get the price reduced somewhat further. Stock up boys, the prices are going up, they have to along with the price of fuel.

NO
At the risk of being rep correct: most firewood dealers HAVE to be honest: "seasoned" is seasoned; green is green. Learn the difference between green and just wet. It's a tough enough business not to have nickel and dimers chiseling pennies from a stone.
Milk is $5/ gallon; do you ask for it at $3. ? Petrol ? RAM ? Hanes u-pants ?

Maybe you ought to read the threads here a little more closely? There are dozens, if not hundreds of people,albeit, mostly newbies that tried to buy seasoned wood, and were told it was so, only to be sadly dissapointed. I don`t think you have any idea of how many people every year decide to jump into the "selling firewood" business, and then soon give it up cause it is too hard a work,for too little profit.

Not everyone is like Lees-wood and have been in business for a long time and is reputable. The vast majority think that it is just fast and easy money,until they actually have to do the work. Anyways, you are missing the point-(you should always be ahead on your wood supply-never behind). Most firewood dealers do not have to be honest, they are not around long enough to have to worry about that. If you do find a good one, like the aforementioned, then best to stick with him. With the rest, It`s Just A Crap
Shoot. I have been a wood-burner for the past 30 years,and have seen more of these guys come and go, than you are old.

And fyi, I`m not asking for $5 milk for $3, just that most of these people that deliver csd,can carry 2 cords csd, and by me buying 2 cords at once saves them on fuel and time, that is why they offer a slight discount.

So take that,ye cad :p For the most part, that loot is cash only, therefore no taxes to be paid by the vendor.
 
downeast said:
At the risk of being rep correct: most firewood dealers HAVE to be honest: "seasoned" is seasoned; green is green. Learn the difference between green and just wet. It's a tough enough business not to have nickel and dimers chiseling pennies from a stone.
Milk is $5/ gallon; do you ask for it at $3. ? Petrol ? RAM ? Hanes u-pants ?

If I am buying 15,000 pound of milk, gas, RAM or boxer shorts at a time you bet your ass I negotiate.
 
At the risk of being rep correct: most firewood dealers HAVE to be honest: "seasoned" is seasoned; green is green. Learn the difference between green and just wet. It's a tough enough business not to have nickel and dimers chiseling pennies from a stone.
Milk is $5/ gallon; do you ask for it at $3. ? Petrol ? RAM ? Hanes u-pants ?[/quote]

Maybe you ought to read the threads here a little more closely? There are dozens, if not hundreds of people,albeit, mostly newbies that tried to buy seasoned wood, and were told it was so, only to be sadly dissapointed. I don`t think you have any idea of how many people every year decide to jump into the "selling firewood" business, and then soon give it up cause it is too hard a work,for too little profit.

Not everyone is like Lees-wood and have been in business for a long time and is reputable. The vast majority think that it is just fast and easy money,until they actually have to do the work. Anyways, you are missing the point-(you should always be ahead on your wood supply-never behind). Most firewood dealers do not have to be honest, they are not around long enough to have to worry about that. If you do find a good one, like the aforementioned, then best to stick with him. With the rest, It`s Just A Crap
Shoot. I have been a wood-burner for the past 30 years,and have seen more of these guys come and go, than you are old.
And fyi, I`m not asking for $5 milk for $3, just that most of these people that deliver csd,can carry 2 cords csd, and by me buying 2 cords at once saves them on fuel and time, that is why they offer a slight discount.

So take that,ye cad :p For the most part, that loot is cash only, therefore no taxes to be paid by the vendor.[/quote]

Cad here.....and here....You ain't Brit are ye ?

And how is the H do you know how old I is ? How in the name of %$#@* do you know how long I've been heating with wood in a real temperate climate, not some Cad wimp place like the PNW where it rains 100% of the time and never ever goes below 10 C !!
The wood heat and wood Vitae is summarized below--read it lad. "LAD" !!!!! ????

Yes, we have heated with wood since the glory days of the 70's with more STOVES THAN YOU COULD EVER KNOW. ( That's to show you shouting I think) . Take that Cad.

Real wood burners Downeast who buy firewood are rarely cheated, if they were there would be H to pay, and ALL ( there's that shout again !) firewood dealers here that I am acquainted with ( "never end on a preposition" said our neighbor E.B. White) are scrupulously honest, have been selling firewood for many years, and do pay taxes.
Now maybe on the Left Coast, things are different.

So there you old Cad . "CAD" !!!!????? How old are ye ? And, do you know Mr. Lees Wood personally ? I don't, but he sounds pretty straight forward. Don't ye think so ? Our cousin Joe from Casteltownbere in County Cork, Ireland, use "ye" all the time. Are ye from Ireland ?
 
[quote author="BrotherBart" date="1206681634If I am buying 15,000 pound of milk, gas, RAM or boxer shorts at a time you bet your ass I negotiate.[/quote]

Get real B²--when have you ever bought 15K of milk ? Or 15K gallons of gas ? Please, keep this on a rational level.
How many pairs of U-Pants can you use ? You ever put 15 Gig of RAM where ???
We're talking a lousy couple of cords of hard earned CSD wood....
 
Downeast: glad I could get YE all worked up. :p

Actually my family are all transplanted yanks,moved up here to the Left Coast back in the 40`s. If you really must know, on my grandmothers side,maiden name Cole from Missouri, yes southern, if she read your rant, she would likely get the gang back together and? heh,heh.

Also, a lot of Cheerokee blood in this family,maybe at one time they used to scalp those northern yanks. Specially the northenmost ones. :lol: Chill out,this is a fun and informative forum,okay I will admit that I like to stir once in a while,but no harm meant.

Relax,take a deep breath, and Buy Your Wood At Least A Year In Advance. And don`t try to sell any milk to BB. :p
 
Ye are indeed chilled. We will stay chilled 'til nae on ( that's a Cad word) June damn it.
We in Cad-Land NEVER buy wood; we earn it by harvesting our own, like real men.
You got to be able to take it Sonny---that's one mess of a wood yard there BTW. Straighten it out.
We drink our milk straight.
 
Downeast: I kinda think it looks like you all have a sense of humour too. Good on you. Now don`t forget to use those "smileys" once in a while to show us that you ain`t still ticked.

And hey, please visit the ash can, I am still looking for suggestions on how to keep on stirring. You will readily recognize my post there. If you don`t recognize it right away, then put on those 70`s reading glasses. And do a double take ;-)
 
people by me hate trees i never see a shortage of people cutting them down someone moves into a house 1st thing they do is cut down all the messy trees, plus the area i live in is getting so overdevloped it disqusting and is see no end of that.
 
around here we have plenty of wood places and the logging industry is rather big. Obviously the more loggers/wood dealers there are in any particular area, the lower the prices should be due to competition. having said that, for the past 5 years or so, a cord of split green wood has cost around $150-$175. Seasoned split cord is $225. Log length is around $65-$75/cord.
 
sorry, but that is New Jersey for you :)
 
LEES WOOD-CO said:
The price of wood WILL follow the price of oil. Mark my words!

The price of almost everything will follow the price of oil. There are transportation costs is almost everything from cutting logs to toting pimps around.
 
I feel very fortunate to have multiple sources of free wood.
I use the term free, even though everything has a price.
Free to me means getting in my old truck, driving less then 10 miles, starting the chainsaw, filling the truck, spliting and stacking.

This year has been a bonanza for free wood.
Not only do I have it comming in at work from contacts but less then 5 blocks away they set up a yard waste site.
I have already filled my truck 7 times with Hickory, Ash and Oak.
My theory....MAKE HAY WHEN THE SUN SHINES, CAUSE ITS GONNA GET RAINY!
 
NO IT IS NOT JUST NEW JERSEY THIS IS NATION WIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!! MORE PEOPLE MORE DEVLOPMENT MORE CARS MORE POLLUTION EVEN BY U... MY 2ND HOUSE IN THE ADIRONDACKS USED TO HAVE 1 NEIGHBOR 1 MILE AWAY NOW I HAVE 6 ALL ON A NEW ST. BUILT IN THE LAST 2 YRS. WITH 3 OTHER HOUSES BEING BUILT.
 
oh I agree there, my motto is..you need to save the Cities if you wanna preserve the countryside, god bless the city goers I say!
 
I think the best you can hope for when buying wood is to not get something over-seasoned (rotted?), and the proper quantity (you pay for a cord, you get a cord!). So always expect to season that word after it is delivered.

With regards to wood prices, there are too many factors that will affect it, but I think in general we're all in for higher energy prices (electric, propane, natural gas, gasoline, etc., even wood). So hedging against higher prices right now is a good thing. If you don't have the time or space to grab a good deal on wood right now, I think the price spread of wood to other energy prices will make it worth burning for a long time to come!

Just my $.02
 
I don't think that firewood meets the definition of a "commodity".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity

"Commoditization occurs as a goods or services market loses differentiation across its supply base, often by the diffusion of the intellectual capital necessary to acquire or produce it efficiently. As such, goods that formerly carried premium margins for market participants have become commodities, such as generic pharmaceuticals and silicon chips."

To me, a commodity is a un-differentiated good. Milk is a commodity: you can buy it everywhere and the majority of consumers perceive no difference in the milk they buy from different stores. The only way for a dairy farm to make more money is to differentiate their milk: glass bottles, more milk fat, non-pasteurized, no RGBH cows, organic feed, etc. One family owned dairy farm near me got out to the milk biz all together and now make cheese on the farm and their profits quadrupled. Check out their semi trailer "Cheese-on-wheels" turnkey production facility: http://www.roppcheese.com/cheeseprocess.html

Typically the price of a commodity goes down over time, not up. More players get into the production of the commodity and drive manufacturing costs down. Only when the inputs go up in price does the consumer pay more. Or, the consumer pays more if they choose to buy what they perceive as the better valued differentiated product.

Firewood is not used by the majority of consumers, at least in my area, so it is a specialty product and as such the suppliers dictate the price based on their input costs. Most of the wood sold around here comes from tree trimming businesses. As fuel, insurance, labor, etc. prices increase for them, the price of firewood goes up for the consumer. I would think the only thing that could make it go down would be a glut of wood on the market - like a ice storm or tornado causing lots of tree damage and the trimmers having more wood / firewood than they can handle / store. The price of firewood will also go up as more buyers enter the market as alternative heating costs increase (natural gas, electricity, LP, corn, wood pellets - all of which are definitely commodities).

Also, firewood in and of itself is always a unique product since it is grown in nature and hand made / processed. Different wood species and dryness and split length all factor into the price asked by the supplier and the perceived value on the part of the consumer.
 
kolbyTheDog said:
I don't think that firewood meets the definition of a "commodity".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity

"Commoditization occurs as a goods or services market loses differentiation across its supply base, often by the diffusion of the intellectual capital necessary to acquire or produce it efficiently. As such, goods that formerly carried premium margins for market participants have become commodities, such as generic pharmaceuticals and silicon chips."

To me, a commodity is a un-differentiated good. Milk is a commodity: you can buy it everywhere and the majority of consumers perceive no difference in the milk they buy from different stores. The only way for a dairy farm to make more money is to differentiate their milk: glass bottles, more milk fat, non-pasteurized, no RGBH cows, organic feed, etc. One family owned dairy farm near me got out to the milk biz all together and now make cheese on the farm and their profits quadrupled. Check out their semi trailer "Cheese-on-wheels" turnkey production facility: http://www.roppcheese.com/cheeseprocess.html

Typically the price of a commodity goes down over time, not up. More players get into the production of the commodity and drive manufacturing costs down. Only when the inputs go up in price does the consumer pay more. Or, the consumer pays more if they choose to buy what they perceive as the better valued differentiated product.

Firewood is not used by the majority of consumers, at least in my area, so it is a specialty product and as such the suppliers dictate the price based on their input costs. Most of the wood sold around here comes from tree trimming businesses. As fuel, insurance, labor, etc. prices increase for them, the price of firewood goes up for the consumer. I would think the only thing that could make it go down would be a glut of wood on the market - like a ice storm or tornado causing lots of tree damage and the trimmers having more wood / firewood than they can handle / store. The price of firewood will also go up as more buyers enter the market as alternative heating costs increase (natural gas, electricity, LP, corn, wood pellets - all of which are definitely commodities).

Also, firewood in and of itself is always a unique product since it is grown in nature and hand made / processed. Different wood species and dryness and split length all factor into the price asked by the supplier and the perceived value on the part of the consumer.


Plain and simple. Firewood = Value added by-product
 
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