Small old firebox follow-up

[uwtriguy]

I wanted to follow-up on a previous post about finding the right option for a very small firebox (23"WX30"HX13"D) in an old home (1892). I was considering extending the hearth out into the room another 25" or so and putting a woodstove on it. The problem is the wife doesn't like the amount of room it would take up. So we contacted a mason to see about modifying the firebox to accomidate a larger insert. He said we have two option and both will cost around the same ($7500).

1. Put in a masonry heater with a heat exchanger for hot water. The house is around 2000 sq ft. Any idea if a masonry heater would heat the whole house along with the hot water?
2. Modify the firebox and mantle to accomidate a larger insert. After the chimney liner, firebox modification, and insert it would be about the same as the masonry heater.

A last, more cost effective, option would be to put in a small insert (Regency I1100) (would still need to do some small firebox modifications myself) or a small stove VC Aspen and only use it for supplimental heat. Although I was hoping to some day have the option to heat the whole house, but if that is my only option then so be it.

Last question, if we decide on a masonry heater, wood stove, or insert in the living area will the basement get really cold? We have hot water baseboard heat right now and would hate to have pipes freeze downstairs. Any suggestions or thoughts would be great. Thanks again for all your suggestions.

 

[begreen]

Did you discuss and look at the Jotul F3CB? It looks like it will be a close fit, but with rear-exit flue I think it might make it. The F3CB is listed as 22 3/4" wide so it would be good to check the exact measurements of the stove at a store and recheck the fireplace width for exact measurement. There's also the Morso 7110 at 22.6" wide.

I'd be curious to know a lot more about the masonry stove offer and design.

The basement will get colder, but I would suspect that your hot water is also on the boiler and will provide some basement heat. Insulating the basement walls and caulking all sills and windows there will provide safety from freezes, more comfortable floors and lower heating costs. Another thought is a small wood boiler in the basement tied into the existing system. But running these systems requires more hands on knowledge.

 

[uwtriguy]

The problem with the F3 is that I would only be able to stick it into the firebox about 1 inch because the width tapers back to a width of 18". In this case I would need to expand the hearth since I would only have 10" of clearance in the front of the stove. Here is a link to masonry heaters: Masonry Heaters

Is it advisable to use a hammer to remove bricks from the firebox and move them 1.5" on each side in order to accomidate the Regency I1100?

From the sounds of it I will have settle for supplimentary heat instead of whole house heat without paying large amounts of money. If I do that the payback period is going to be pretty long...

 

[Gooserider]

The problem with the F3 is that I would only be able to stick it into the firebox about 1 inch because the width tapers back to a width of 18". In this case I would need to expand the hearth since I would only have 10" of clearance in the front of the stove. Here is a link to masonry heaters: Masonry Heaters

Is it advisable to use a hammer to remove bricks from the firebox and move them 1.5" on each side in order to accomidate the Regency I1100?

From the sounds of it I will have settle for supplimentary heat instead of whole house heat without paying large amounts of money. If I do that the payback period is going to be pretty long...

Extreme caution is needed when attempting to remove bricks from an existing fireplace. In general, the Codes frown on modifying an existing fireplace as removing bricks may result in the remaining structure not offering the required masonry thickness needed to protect adjacent combustibles.

Of the other options mentioned, I would seriously consider the Masonry Heater potential - I would definitely want to know how much additional mass the conversion would add, how he will add the additional smoke passages that extract the heat in an MH setup, and so forth, but if your chimney is centrally located, and the house layout is otherwise appropriate for use with an MH, they can be among the best heaters out there, certainly having the potential to heat the entire house. The $7,500 price is not all that outrageous either - I suspect that by the time you get an insert with the liner, installation, etc. you will be looking at close to $5,000, so it wouldn't be all that much worse to get a more efficient heater for the small amount extra.

Gooserider

 

[uwtriguy]

I might need to clarify. I would only remove the firebox bricks temporarily to move them over about 2 inches. Then I'd have to re mortar them back into place. They would probably be stronger after I move them! If this still isn't advisable then I guess I will have to consider other options.

As for the masonry heater, I see that most of them are rated to heat only about 700-900 sq ft. I'm still skeptical whether this will heat my whole house (2000 sq ft).

 

[begreen]

What masonry heaters are you looking at? Can you provide a weblink?

 

[Hogwildz]

Is this on a concrete foundation? I don't see how you could put a masonry heater in there without substantial support at the base. But if you can, I would go with the Masonry heater all the way myself. A couple bunrs a day and the heater releasing heat the rest of the time. Man I envy you if you go that route.

 

[uwtriguy]

I posted this link earlier in the post but here it is again: Masonry Heaters

Yes this would have to be supported in the basement by a steal beam and two support pedestals. So it sound like this would be the best way to go and would heat the whole house pretty easily?

 

[Gooserider]

An MH certainly has the potential to heat the entire house if it's done right. It needs a house with the proper design, a fairly central location in the house for the heater, etc. It also needs to be sized properly, and have enough thermal mass to do the job. So far you haven't really given us the details that we would need to know to comment on that (such as floor plans or the specs the mason is going to be giving) However to the extent one can tell anything about a person from their website, it looks like a competent guy - he claims membership in the appropriate trade groups, and links to Tempcast, which is a reputable maker of MH parts. MH's also have some other interesting possibilities, such as putting in water heating coils for DHW and/or radiant heat, and the option to install a bake oven (reccomended if you go that route)

Normally an MH is difficult to make work as a retrofit, but an old house like you are in might work with it since it was probably designed with wood heating in mind to begin with, and is more likely to have the chimney in the right place and so forth than a lot of new construction that views the fireplace as a decoration. I would say that you might want to check the mason's references on any other MH retrofits that he's done, and if folks are happy, go for it.

Gooserider

 

[uwtriguy]

Thanks for the honest opinion.

The chimney in centrally located with the staircase going upstairs right around the corner from the chimney. The level with the fireplace is around 800 square feet and the upstairs is probably about the same. He would build it out of masonry blocks. We would like to go with soapstone but the cost is out of our price range. We would also go with the hot water heat as well. That would be great to have both heat and hot water from the same structure.

 

[begreen]

It's hard to understand how this is going to be less expensive. I would expect a soapstone installation to run up to about $1000 + stove. Have you priced out the proper safety systems for tying in to the hot-water system? What kind of masonry system is he proposing, a Russian fireplace design? How many of this system has the mason built? I would get a few references and go and visit the owners of these systems.

Have you gone to a Hearthstone dealer and asked to get an installation quote, independent of the mason's?

 

[Gooserider]

It's hard to understand how this is going to be less expensive. I would expect a soapstone installation to run up to about $1000 + stove. Have you priced out the proper safety systems for tying in to the hot-water system? What kind of masonry system is he proposing, a Russian fireplace design? How many of this system has the mason built? I would get a few references and go and visit the owners of these systems.

Have you gone to a Hearthstone dealer and asked to get an installation quote, independent of the mason's?

I think I understand the logic... The existing fireplace is to small to install an insert large enough to be a whole house heater. (see the OP) The amount of room needed by a free-stander is excessive - you have a WAF shortage. Bringing the mason in to enlarge the firebox is presumably going to be about the same no matter whether he just makes it big enough to hold a larger insert, or converts it into an MH, and if you just enlarge the firebox you still have to pay for the insert after the mason goes away... This leaves the question of whether an insert or an MH would do a better job; given the reports I've heard, I'm somewhat inclined to go with the MH, especially given that there is known technology for incorporating the plumbing for DHW and/or radiant heat, the option of including a bake oven, etc...

I did suggest checking the references on the mason, although his website looks like he may be well qualified - member of the MHA and other relevant organizations, etc. and the photos of work looked nice - though the usual caveats about judging from a website certainly apply... The only question might be whether he is biased in favor of the MH approach by reason of his MHA membership? I don't know... Certainly I think the questions I raised about the amount of thermal mass being added are significant, but it does sound like the basic idea is reasonable.

Gooserider