So what is all the hype about with the Ever Burn is it just that hype?

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elkimmeg

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Initially some of this is older technology of down drafting the smoke over the hot coals. Technology VC used in the mid 80”s One could think this was just a new way of packaging old technology, Right?

Well they have not achieved .7 grams of emission with old technology. This is a completely new technology. The entire refractory package has been upgraded with newer stronger more heat resistant materials capable of withstanding 2700 degrees. Its normal operating temperature is 1700 degrees.

Taking a step back, one also has to explain the newly designed firebox. First is the shoe located on the bottom and back made out of insulated refractory. This shoe has air holes that injects air and super heats the smoke exhaust as it passes over the hot coals Another rear insulated refractory package panel is used to insulate the special refractory secondary burn chamber behind it and to direct the super heated smoke into the secondary refractory burn chamber. With in the chamber again air is added and in reality a super mini blast furnace is created, where all but, 07 grams of smoke particulates is left for exhaust. Secondary air is still thematically controlled Even the exhaust ports location is changed normally the exhaust leaving the secondary chamber exits to the top and flue. But this design has the exhaust ports on the side aiming down. Well its so hot it still will rise but why? Because it holds the smoke longer in the blast like secondary chamber, to completely burn as much smoke as possible. Finally what is left goes up the chimney

IF one had 3 stoves with the identical fireboxes holding 2.2 cubic feet, they all would produce the same BTUs from the same load. Some will burn it faster and produce shorter hotter burn times while others produce longer not as hot but productive burn times. But there is another way more heat can be squeezed out of the wood consumption. Burning secondary smoke. In this case this Ever Burn system does it best. The remaining, or lack of them, .7 emissions is the tell tale proof. The thematically controlled secondary air inlet aids the productive burn time. Tradergordo was bragging about his burn times, well here is why. Most rake their coals forward to take advantage of the shoe super heating the smoke it is best to rake the coals to the center back and best to build the bed of coals there Naturally a good bed of coals works without raking but for faster startups when re working you burning coals this is the advised method.

This was the first question I asked and it was explained out in detail on the chalkboard before we started out tour. During the tour the chief engineer took all of the parts and put them together and explained the entire workings to us

But there is much more to the Ever Burn Non cat Encores and Defiants. All refractory joints are now bolted together, compressing gaskets, gone are the refractory cemented joints. Many of the bolts are stainless steel making rebuilding them a snap in the future as simple as replacing gaskets. Plus gaskets do have the ability to move a bit with heating and cooling and a little more forgiving and less prone to cracking.

These stoves are nothing like their Cat models these have been completely re engineered from ground up to assembly It is even unfair to compare them to any in the past because there is no to. Time will tell how advanced they are and the Ever Burn technology.

Goose if I missed anything please add or correct anything you may have interpreted differently. You know the worst of it I have the stove given to me but. I will never use it. It is going to a donor program recipient.
 
You know the worst of it I have the stove given to me but. I will never use it. It is going to a donor program recipient.

Just make sure whoever you donate that to has a computer.And be sure to let them know we are interest in this new tech and how it work for them..
jay
 
I assume you mean .7 grams and not .07 grams?

Also, the proof is in the pudding with any claimed wood stove technology. How will they burn in the field this year - and after 5 or 10 years! How many parts will need to be replaced?

VC stoves in the past have, according to some, been over-engineered - resulting in the "Mercedes syndrome" where you have a great ride, but you are always replacing parts and opening your checkbook.

As you say, time till tell. Maybe you will be happy someday that you don't have the latest and the greatest!
 
Craig I never have the lastest and gratest I have rebuilt stoves here a 1977 backhoe 1969 lawn tractor I end up with older greatest things.

At least they should be real easy to rebuild everything bolts off and no refactory cement. They might be easier to get off. stainless steel bolts usually do not rust.
But again time will tell. I hear what you are saying about the Mercedes syndrome. But again in this society where few repair, it just might be another Bic pen disposable.

I see Jotul bragging about the gasketed cast iron joints
 
elkimmeg said:
I see Jotul bragging about the gasketed cast iron joints

While Morso quietly plugs along, WITH gaskets rather than cement.
 
I understand the gaskets allow things to move, thus less warping, make easier assembly line fixes, and probably last longer, but the one puzzling thing is the "ease of rebuild" aspect. While it seems it would make it easier, why is there so much about rebuilding cast iron stoves. Are they more prone to overfire and/or damage than steel or stone stoves? or is it just that you CAN rebuild one, whereas a steel stove is a lost cause if overfired to the point of warped parts?
 
I think steel stoves have welds.
Like the Morso rep told me, (unless you screw it up IE run it cherry red) you wont have to worry about rebuilding that stove for a long, long,long,long time.

Cast iron warp?
Crack is the operative word in cast iron failure.
 
babalu87 said:
I think steel stoves have welds.
Like the Morso rep told me, (unless you screw it up IE run it cherry red) you wont have to worry about rebuilding that stove for a long, long,long,long time.

Cast iron warp?
Crack is the operative word in cast iron failure.

Well, I know a guy who has an old defiant in his basement and the grates in that thing are not cracked, but they sure aren't straight. So I guess I made a bit of a leap there (seriously...I'm not being a smart a$$) in thinking that one would need to take the stove totally apart to correct/replace warped parts...so cracked then, or any internally damaged parts, plus replace the refractory cement at the joints.

I do remember my father completely dismantling his old Reginold once and redoing the cement. I was too young to ask why at the time (teenager). Is part of the rebuild related to failed refractory cement that cracks over time? If that's part of the story, then VC going to gaskets seems like a major step forward in quality/reliability.
 
Dylan said:
elkimmeg said:
... the newly designed firebox. First is the shoe located on the bottom and back made out of insulated refractory. This shoe has air holes that injects air....

INJECTS air??? Are you saying that there is a source of pressurized air?? Or is this supply of air INDUCED??

There's an idea. Be kind of like the kids with the nitrous injected honda's...Pure O2 injected VC stoves. :) (This post is not to be taken seriously in any way shape or form. Any potential injury incurred by anyone with so little common sense as to do what I just suggested is not the fault of this poster...and further more if your actually thinking of doing this... please submit your name for the 2007 Darwin awards...you'll surely win)
 
Let me take a stab at this. No I do not know all the answers, but if the forum want to put together a List ,I will call and get them
I was only there 4 hours and tried to absorb as much as I could and then report it here. Sorry I can't answer all questions ,but I will try.
Remember when things are in motion they tend to stay in motion Allso plant this idea in your head, when on restricts a flow out of a gargen hose, a smaller stronged stream exits


As the stove heats up it passes over the ports, the faster it passes over these ports the faster additional air is pulled in. The warmer it gets the faster air moves and rises.
Again things put im motion tend to stay in motion. This air is being constantly heated channeled into a secondary blast type burn in the secondary burn chamber, actually a small gasification.
The main air inlet is much larger that the port holes in the shoe. Reduction causes static pressure and acts as the air being injected they the entire process. I mentioned takes on it actions and motions. That's the best I can do for now. Dylay if you need a better explanation feel free to call Peter MacLeary Engineering manager and R&D for CFM Corp. 802 234 23983


Answering Warren : Gaskets do wear out . If replacing some, then maybe more need to be replaced. Is replacing gaskets rebuilding? Say you chip the side and it looks ugly. In the past to replace that part the entire stove had to be re refactoried and put back together. Today one bolts out the part and bolts the replacement back in. Yes refractory joints last only so long, that is why all the rebuilding going on. As long as the stove is in decent enough shape ,then it is worth re-doing and get anouther 12/15 more years out of it. I'm wondering if the nex one I rebuild ,if I can use gasketing instead of cement? I don't know.
I welcome more questions. I have more now than before I went to VC. I admit I learned a lot. I wish I could take all people that spread the rumor about quality on that tour, only a complete idiot would have not seen the quality, attention to detail, and craftsmanship. There is no other explanation on the web about the Ever Burn system, here they shared that with me and goose to be recorded here. They easilly could have said that's protected information. Also the new Cat combustors, They want us to know what going on up there. The pride in workmanship, they are dying to get out. Goose was about as neutral as I could come up with, he and I saw the quality, craftsmanship, attention to details, and safety
 
elkimmeg said:
Let me take a stab at this No I do not know all the answere but if the p forum want to put together a List I will call and get the answers.
I was only there 4 hours and tried to absorbe as much as could and then report it here Sorry I can't answer all questions but I will try.
Remember when tinge are in motion they tend to stay in motion also palat this idea in your head when on restricts a flow out of a gargen hose a smaller stronged stream exits


As the stove heats up it passes over the ports the faster it passes over these ports the faster additional air is pulle4d in the warmer it gets the faster air movesand rise
Again things put im motion tend to stay in motion this air is being constantly heated into a secondary blast type burn in the secondary burn chamber g actually a small gasification
The main air inlet is mauch larger that the port holes in the shoe reduction causes static pressure and acts as the air being injected they the entire process I mentioned takes on it actions and motions. That's the best I can do for now. Dylay if you need a better explanation feel free to ca llPeter MacLeary Engineering manager and R&D for CFM Corp. 802 234 23983


Answering Warren gaskets do wear out if replacing some then maybe more need to be replaced is replacing gaskets rebuilding? Say you chip the side and it looks ugly In the past to replace that part the entire stove hade to be re refactoried and put back together today one bolts out the part ans bolts the replacement back in. Yess refractory joints last only so long that is why all the rebuilding going on as long as the stove is in decent enough shape then it is worth re-doing and get anouther 12/15 more years out of it I wondering if the nex one I rebuild if I can use gasketing instead of cement? I don't know
I welcome more questions I have more now than before I went to VC. I admit I larned a lot. I wisj I could take all people that spread the ro=umor about quality on that tour only a complete idiot would hav not seen the quality attention to detail and craftsmanship There is no other explanation on the web about the Ever Burn system here it is they shared that with me and goose to be recorded here. They easilly could hqave said that's protected information Also the new Cat combustors They want us to know what going on up there The pride in workmanship they are dying to get out Goose was about as neutral as I could come up with, he and I saw the quality x= craftsmanship ans attention to details and safety


Excellent Elk, thanks. For what it's worth, I feel that your explainations have been great, and you've answered a lot of questions. For the life of me I can't figure out why you didn't acquire the knowledge of everyone in VC in that 4 hours...guess your just slow. ;-P

I suspect you've done more to enhance the perception of VC quality in 4 hours of tour and another 2 of answering posts here in this thread than the marketing staff could do in a year. VC owes you a cold one. Well done Elk.
 
Warren I ccame away impressed about the openness things were explained In the past I had more than 20 people on my payroll building homes and developments One knows the abilities of your hired help and what to expect they should produce in a day. Some workers just do not produce.My developements always had multi task going on Many subcontractors and their workers were there. I knew when one was dogging it and what quality I couold expect.

One impression I came away with was the skill and cordination of this entire setup Not one man or woman looked out of place What ever task or skill each possesed was matched all along the essembly line. The line movement seemed perfectly matched for each members work involved. No one seemed harried or fustrated. I was allowed to question the workers and actually see what their job entailed.. Out of this (Goose please pipe in if you think I over stated this) I saw a very highly skilled workforce Quality pride in workmanship ans safety was evident through out
I am not being paid to say this and if I had other impressions I would tell you as I see them Many here have wittnessed a post where I tell the blunt truth. As inspector I get to watch workmanship every day, I am not impressed easilly

Side note here is seeing a Jotul Oslo sitting in the middle of the plant . I had to ask why the answer was we bought the product of our strongest competitor. We taske their stove apart and examine everything and compare w it to what we produce. Here is another did you know First VC admits the Jotul casting is of very fine quality as is the stove they burn testy it but the real reason is Jotul dimples it top surface and uses a lesser grade and process in enamaling . VC is looking at it as a possible alternative to be incorperated there as a cost cutting measure the enamaling has one less layer and not nearly as pollished surface as the Encore standing next to it (Again Goose If I am embelishing please add objective input)

Goose and I turned out to bne political polar opposites he is libertarian and I am a building inspector a government employee Yet for almost 12 hours we watched poetry in motion plus 5 hour ride to exchange ideas
 
Where Elk is saying the air is "injected" it isn't meant in the sense of being pressurised by anything other than basic aerodynamic principles, but more that it is precisely directed as a jet rather than just being dumped in through a large hole.

The actual inlets for the smoke in the back of the stove are VERY small, I'm almost amazed that they are adequate, but it means that the chimney draft is going to be really sucking stuff through the holes, and causing it to enter the secondary burn chamber at a very high speed. The holes for the secondary air are also quite small. There is one large opening in the shoe that is a rectangle perhaps 1/2" high by an inch wide, and a bunch of smaller holes about the size of a framing nail. The molds for the refractories are very complex with multiple sections and a large number of pins going into them to make the passages.

I am not a stove engineer, but the reason cast iron stoves are built with so many parts as opposed to steel stoves is that cast iron is easiest to make in fairly flat plate shapes as opposed to complex 3 dimensional shapes, and is difficult to weld. Plate steel can be bent into moderately complex shapes, and is easily welded.

Plate is fairly flexible, while cast is brittle. Thus plate works best if you weld it into a solid structure with as few seams as possible. Any differential expansion can be dealt with by the ability of the plate to slightly flex. The downsides are argueably worse thermal propertys and the fact that you pretty much end up with a drab looking box. (some folks like that look, but...)
It also has some limitations about what can easily be built into it, just because it's hard to take apart.

Cast can have more ornate details built into it and the modular nature of it's parts allows more complex structures, but it has to be seamed together in multiple parts with some level of "give" between the pieces to allow for differential expansion. That flex is going to cause the joining material to wear eventually, and need replacing.

Both materials have their advantages and disadvantages, so it is impossible to say which one is "better" in an absolute sense. I would expect that VC's move to using rope gaskets instead of refractory cement will be a big benefit in reducing the need for rebuilds since the gasket will stay flexible far longer than the more brittle cement.

The other big advantage that was mentioned is arguably more of benefit to the dealers and installers than anyone else, but if I were a dealer it would be a wonderful thing. (Perhaps some of the dealers can share their opinions) - If a stove gets damaged in the course of an install, or later by the customer, the dealer is going to have to fix the damage. In the case of a plate stove, or a refractory glued together cast stove, the dealer has to pull the stove back out, drag the entire unit back to the shop, and then re-install it after getting it repaired / replaced. Given the weight of a stove, this is probably going to need a crew, a truck, and a huge amount of work. With the VC gasketed design, the dealer can just order a single replacement panel, then send one guy out to replace that one part right on the customer's hearth with a minimum of hassle. (While VC's are heavy, I don't think any single part would be more than 50 lbs or so.) I'm sure that this would make a BIG savings in the cost to the dealer of doing a warranty repair for instance. (Are you listening MSG?) It wasn't mentioned, and probably wouldn't be a reccomended technique, but if one had a difficult install situation, I could even see dismantling the stove, bringing it in one peice at a time and re-assembling it on the hearth.

Gooserider
 
Quality was always a big thing at VC - EXCEPT for a number of years when CFM was trying to milk it for everything it was worth. We all know that quality has to come from the top down, and the former CEO - Colin Adamson - was known for a lot of things...but quality was not among them! The stories of his "reign" are unprintable, but as we have noted before he fired almost 100% of the "old guard"....people who worked at VC and has dedicated their lives and careers to the company. Most of them walked away with nothing.

It was a cold and hard calculated decision.....for money, not love!

As a result of mis-steps, the company pretty much went down the tubes and then about 2 years ago were taken over by one of their biggest creditors, the Ontario Teachers Pension. It took them about a year to get everything headed back in the right direction - and from Elks report and the other buyers and owners I have heard from it sounds like they are back on track.

No doubt to compete in the world today you have to be on your toes. Vermont castings always had the capability to be a leader....but they made some mistakes that resulted in the company having to "start over" a few times.

Now on to some engineering. VC seems to have thicker enameling than Jotul. However, keep this in mind - first, dimples and similar ribs such as jotul has add to the surface area (greatly) and more surface area=more heat and convection.

Also, a thinner coating of enamel just may be better for stoves because it is a different material (glass) than the iron, and a very thick coat can tend to chip more and be subject to crazing and cracking from expansion and contraction. Now, this is an educated guess, but it certainly makes sense to me.

Most people will make a choice by style - in other words, the smooth thick enamel may attract one customer, and the enamel which is less obvious another. In fact, a lot of customers liked Jotul Blue-Black because it has the advantages of enamel (stays clean, etc.) and does not look like enamel (matt finish).

As they say, there is an ass for every seat.

If I were VC, job #1 would be to get the long term cost of owning the stoves down....less expensive parts replacement, and easier also. It seems as they are doing this with the gasket, etc.
 
Trader this is the first question we asked VC to explain the Ever Burn Technology

BTW the EPA test for the Latest Everburn Encore is ,7 grams and the Dutch West are 1.2 grams
 
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