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Some interesting video clips on wood boilers

Post in 'The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces' started by PassionForFire&Water, Oct 6, 2013.

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  1. PassionForFire&Water

    PassionForFire&Water Minister of Fire

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    Came across some interesting videos on wood boilers.
    Exactly what we need in this industry is this kind of talk.
    In my opinion just plain BS: one company trashing another company
    Enjoy!

    This is the link to part I:
    There is a part II and a part III ... and a part IV
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2013
    hobbyheater likes this.

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  2. henfruit

    henfruit Minister of Fire

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    There is no audio? It is to bad the man does not know the difference between a stay pin boiler and a stay bar boiler.Also he does not realize all Vigas boilers are welded from the inside.
  3. hobbyheater

    hobbyheater Minister of Fire

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    The "audio" is there , its like the old fashion radio in that it is not automatic , the listener has to turn the volume up to listen!:oops:
  4. henfruit

    henfruit Minister of Fire

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    Thanks Alan I found it.
  5. hobbyheater

    hobbyheater Minister of Fire

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    Two pictures of the same heat exchanger!

    IMGP4187.JPG The lighting makes the center weld in this picture,

    IMGP4188.JPG
    look much different in this one!
  6. kopeck

    kopeck Minister of Fire

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    So...what is that Euro boiler?

    If those really were the welds on that unit that's pretty crappy.

    That being said I've seen my Tarm at least partially naked and it's super clean and well made. The idea that they discounting 85% of they competition by lumping together with one junker is pretty poor marketing if you ask me.

    Couldn't one make the argument that the EconoBurn's design is getting a bit long in the tooth, especially at the price the command? I didn't hear that come up in the video. :)

    K
  7. maple1

    maple1 Minister of Fire

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    I'm confused - the company with their name all over the vids that I assume made the vids also sells 'European' boilers on their website.

    I wonder if their 'European' suppliers/manufacturers (or all the other non-Econoburn brands on there for that matter) have seen these vids? Seems to be biting many hands that feed them...
  8. Obadiah

    Obadiah “Extinguishing Mediocrity”

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    Well what can I say, I'm the guy that runs towards the smoke and fire while everyone else is headed the opposite direction. Maybe I'm a little crazy, I don't know. Just like it took BIG Kahunas to make those videos I'll stand here and take the heat for them. I knew when I made them that there would be Blow Back. I did not do the video mentioned to bad mouth the competition, or all European boilers like someone here said, I sell the European imports, they are a viable product, many are excellent and the Europeans have been ahead of us for many years, in the field of gasification boilers. The video name says "Econoburn verses the Imports". Just like all American boilers are not created equally, all European boilers are not either, that is the simple truth of the matter.


    I never said who made that boiler, that would be bad mouthing the competition and unethical in my opinion. There is no way someone can make a boiler in Europe and ship across an Ocean and sell it for less here and have the same quality as an Econoburn. Our wages and cost of doing business is not that much higher. The quality is evident in the video concerning the care taken in workmanship between the two boilers. If you try to deny that your delusional.


    I made these videos because I am tired of American jobs going overseas, I am tired of Americans thinking that the only way they can get a good gasification boiler is from Europe. I am a proud American and I for one am taking a stand here and now and promoting American made products, if you want to hammer on me for that, have at it!


    I also represent the new WoodMaster Flex Fuel which is being built in Red Lake MN under license from SolarFocus, which is about as high tech as you can get and will stand toe to toe with any import. I traveled to these companies to see for myself and meet the owners and managers so I learn what I could about those products. I did this because I wanted to offer my customers the best American products I could. I believe in WoodMaster and Econoburn, I believe in the products, I am proud of the American jobs they provide and I will do my best to promote their product with integrity and honesty.


    If you don't like what the video reveals then improve the product. We did not fake anything, the facts in that video all remain the same, acknowledge them or deny what is clearly shown, your choice; I have no control over that. Furthermore to say that I don't know the difference between the way the stays are constructed and the boilers are built is very childish. I happen to possess a degree in mechanical engineering and designed and built my own firefighting equipment.www.wildfirefighters.com

    To the gentleman who called me on the phone and telling me I had just been made a fool of on Hearth.com, thank you for pointing that out. Calling me a dumb internet dealer that offers lots of different products and does not know anything about any of them is a bit of an insult as well I must admit, once again I thank you for your opinions, however.. I have been in this business over 33 yrs. and happen to have been licensed HVAC and Boiler Specialist as my family was in the heating business back in Michigan, before my semi retiring to Montana. I know my products and I stand behind what I offer my customers. I have many happy customers that also post on this forum. Unfortunately, I am not as young and sharp as I once was and can no longer remember the details of each and every product we offer, but then isn't that what the tech manuals are for? I am gifted with the ability to wear many hats for sure; our motto is “Extinguishing Mediocrity”. If you care to defend Mediocrity, then that is your business, I choose to tell the truth and not insult others. Let me guess who is the person that called me as well as Econoburn, could he be one of you? He refused to give his name and blocked his phone number. Funny how the one pointing the finger always has 3 pointing right back at them, so much for having the Kahunas to call me on the carpet out in the open. You’re the reason I decided to face this head on, like a man with integrity and honor should, not hiding in the bushes slinging insults and innuendos.


    To say that the sides of the boiler are not bowed out from pressure testing is to deny what your own eyes are telling you, from an engineering standpoint more stays equal more support regardless of how they are welded inside or outside, "Stay Bar or No Stay Bar". Come on that is the best argument you can come up with? Compare the thickness of the steel, or how about the quality of the welds, so do they do a better job welding on the inside where you can’t see it? Really? I have seen better welds in a high school welding class. How about the rivet used as a cotter pin, do you suggest that we put that there? Shall we compare the warranty? All Econoburn’s are built to ASME specs with ASME Section 4 Carbon Steel; shall we also do a metallurgy analysis for you?


    The fact remains that there is a very clear difference in the quality of the welds and how the units are constructed; I clearly show the difference in the video. That much is evident and very clear, yet only Kopeck had the decency to speak the truth and say “If those really were the welds on that unit that's pretty crappy.That being said I've seen my Tarm at least partially naked and it's super clean and well made”, which it is, because it is a very high quality boiler. I assure you those were really the welds on that boiler and they are very crappy, with that one honest evaluation I rest my case, thank you Mr. Kopeck for standing up and pointing out that obvious fact.


    Each year I give thousands of dollars to Hearth.com to promote the ability of this forum to function and provide a place for folks to come and get an honest opinion from folks who should not have an agenda. I do not realize much return for my investment I assure you.


    For years I have monitored the Boiler Room but refrained from posting here because it seems as though you guys had been doing a pretty good job, until now. You guys have formed a Click, you all protect each other like a bunch of Nanny's, gone is the openness and honesty that made this forum what it once was. Gone are many of the members who have had enough of this nit picking bickering that has become so pervasive, who have moved on to start their own forums.....maybe Craig needs to take another look at the direction this forum is headed, because what from what I can see it looks like a cliff to me., the same cliff this country is headed for if we don't do something to bring back American jobs.


    I'm proud to be an American, I'm proud of the video I made, and I am proud of the so called American built "Long in the Tooth Econoburn" as someone said, at least it has still has teeth as well as one of the best warranty’s out there. I guess that is where the rubber meets the road and the BS stops. Good day gentleman.
    Vizsla, martyinmi, BoilerMan and 2 others like this.
  9. kopeck

    kopeck Minister of Fire

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    I'm going to process this a bit before I respond, there's a lot going on here.

    I'm not sure you were "made a fool", but there's definitely a advertising philosophy going on here that isn't going to sit well with everyone.

    K
    BoilerMan likes this.
  10. maple1

    maple1 Minister of Fire

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    This forum is dishonest - and unopen? Really?

    If you really wanted to put how you say you really feel about boilers into action, you would be selling ONLY Econoburns. And maybe the Woodmasters. As is, you're eating off both ends of the table.

    I don't think anyone has bad-mouthed the Econoburns, there are lots of happy owners on here as far as I know. And they are no doubt solidly built. So why so defensive?
  11. __dan

    __dan Burning Hunk

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    You should name the boiler with the failed welds and sides. Present the facts in an open an honest manner. It is a false statement to say that is typical of the European gasifer boilers. You should look at a naked Froling, or their factory production video where they show the state of the art production line and massive automated CNC cutting and welding robots.

    I agree 100% that the Americans should be competitive with their products and that means jobs. Honestly, the video made the Econoburn boiler look bad. Look at the secondary combustion chamber. Most of the gasifiers, the secondary chamber is a smaller tunnel which raises the flue gas pressure and velocity, slightly raising its temp, but then secondary combustion takes place in that confined space and the pressure and velocity increase traps the heat and raises temp.

    The Econoburn's secondary chamber opens into a much bigger space, a box, allowing the combustion gas to expand and cool. The only heat trapping refractory is a small plate at the bottom of the chamber??? Forced draft instead of draft inducer is another no go with me. Pressurizing the primary combustion chamber is a way for any leaks to force smoke into the house.

    I thought Econoburn was a division of a large oil boiler manufacturer, but the video says they are essentially hand built and don't have a robotic production line. They will need a high volume production capacity to get quality up and cost down. That lack of high volume production capacity scares me. I would think they would invest a lot more in their design and engineering, product validation, if they were going to invest the hundreds of millions in a high volume production line.

    Other than that I have no doubt it is a big solid wood burning machine.
    BoilerMan and maple1 like this.
  12. kopeck

    kopeck Minister of Fire

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    OK, here's the way I saw those videos...

    Whether it was truly your intention or not you grouped all imports together and then found the lowest denominator to represent the group. The whole thing is very open ended really tries to influence potential customers with "facts" that might be true in once specific case but then apply them to the entire group. Would I want the boiler with all the poor welds, heck no, but how about you compare the Econoburn with one of it's better know peers?

    I looked at an Econoburn when I was in the market for a new boiler. I did my homework and I made my decision based on what I thought was the best bang for my buck. While I'm all for products being made in the USA I refuse to pay more, or in this case the roughly the same amount for what I see is less of a product. I'm not bashing the Econoburn here but I do believe that some other companies have come up with more up to date & better designs. It's more then just thicker plate steel.

    And as far as the whole no import could be as good as the Econoburn simply because of the cost, I think it's simple economics here. Gassers are a niche product here in the states, over in Europe they're common place. It sounds like every Econoburn is hand made, which is nice but expensive. Go look the videos of the Froling manufacturing facilities, they're setup for serious production. I'm will to bet cost per unit is considerably less then the Econburn hence them being able to import at a competitive price.

    I admire you sticking up for your product, the method of doing it can be questioned though.

    K
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  13. hobbyheater

    hobbyheater Minister of Fire

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    I agree. The pressurized combustion chamber of the Jetstream does cause small forced leaks! To offset these leaks, I have gone to a remote mounted blower 20% larger, but use a gate valve in the remote air piping to the boiler to dump that 20% and pressurize the boiler room!

    IMGP3609.JPG

    IMGP3620.JPG

    The blower air is split at the boiler for roughly ,60% for combustion 40% for a forced venturic draft inducer again forcing fine fly ash through any unsealed joint so pressurizing the boiler room has worked well on cutting down on the dust.
  14. kopeck

    kopeck Minister of Fire

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    That's the exact design change that I'm referring to. Sure the bypass business works but I like the newer style, cleaner and really very simple!

    K
  15. Obadiah

    Obadiah “Extinguishing Mediocrity”

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    Dan, There were no failed welds, or sides, that boiler had never been fired, it was brand new. Why cant folks understand the name of the video is "Econoburn Verses the Imports" is about the difference in construction and attention to detail found in the Econoburn compared to some imports. Just like a Mercedes and a Yugo verses a Humvee. It is not about tearing apart a competitor but showing folks that know little about boilers, what the difference is between an Econoburn and how it is built like a tank, that is all. This has been all blown out of proportion because of how Marc presented it to everyone, trying to stir up trouble. What he has nothing better to do than cruise You Tube this time of year looking for ways to cause trouble? I am so busy I cant keep up with demand and certainly don't have time to cause trouble for others, let alone diffuse this mess.

    There are many European Boiler manufactures out there, as I said just like American, some good, some not so good, the idea was not to pick on one company but simply to show the differences in manufacturing and attention in detail, that is the reason all identification of that manufacture was removed. If you were to take the trouble to carefully read what already has been posted here, you would know what boiler it was, I have no intention of doing that, neither does Econoburn, maybe other folks here have an issue with that company, we don't. My understanding is they are a very reputable company and take very good care of their dealers and customers. I have spoken with the importer and at one time was considering offering the line myself after the company came highly recommended by another Hearth.com member who purchased a boiler from them. I choose not to because I already had enough imports in my line and wanted more American made boiler lines instead. In-spite of what was shown in the video in terms of quality control, I have never heard of one complaint against the boiler or the importer. They both have an excellent reputation. I was amazed when I learned which boiler it was and could not believe it at first. My hope was what boiler it is would never happen. Because it has, I have now an importer who has every right to be royally pissed off about this matter and probably will need to personally call him and apologize.. I have no bone to pick here with any other importer, or dealer and did not pick what boiler was sitting there when the video was filmed. We merely wished to show the obvious differences in how the Econoburn is built like a tank. I have already said the Froling is superior to the boiler used in the video. Now we have a hornets nest of opinions and misnomers because of how this matter was presented in this forum, by someone seeking to stir the pot and create trouble for me.. Everyone is welcomed to their opinions spouting what they believe makes their boiler better. It is typical human nature, Coke or Pepsi? Some folks will argue over such a stupid subject.

    Econoburn is a division of a ABASCO Inc which is a ISO 9000 certified manufacturing and engineering company that builds control systems for nuclear submarines and ships for the US Navy, I can assure you they have the latest and greatest technology available to build the Econoburn boilers including Laser Guided CNC Cutting. I did video that part of the manufacturing process, but those videos did not turn out. If you think using robots does more to insure better quality, or American jobs, your sadly mistaken, you cannot replace an human who has a work ethic with a robot, at least not yet anyhow. The same is true with the combustion system you commented on, there are differing opinions there as well. I wont get into the details as that would turn into a book, the Econoburn combustion system has been around for years and works well. When you get into the test data that part becomes apparent. Confining the combustion to a tunnel type refractory presents its own sets of drawbacks and complications, namely in maintenance. The Econoburn is not built to European specs but American, we don't treat our boilers like the Europeans do. It may seem crude to some, but it works better for most Americans in my opinion.
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  16. maple1

    maple1 Minister of Fire

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    It was you that made the video in the way you did & posted it on the internet - if you did not want it viewed & discussed, you shouldn't have posted it to start with. If it has caused you grief you need only to look in the mirror to see where the grief has come from.

    We are each big enough & mature enough to form our own opinions - you happen to not agree with those whose opinion may differ from yours.

    Why can't you understand that just 'Econoburn Versus THE Imports' is casting a very wide shadow all on its own? Whose words are those again? If you cannot step back & view all this objectively & see how this might possibly be having an effect you might not have wanted, without it even being posted here, well, good luck in the future.
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  17. Obadiah

    Obadiah “Extinguishing Mediocrity”

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    When you receive a phone call like I did and discover this post would you not become defensive,? I don't believe I said anyone is bad mouthing Econoburn but rather stirring the trouble pot and reaking havoc here in this forum taking the video out of context as if I was personally attacking all imports when I also offer imports. This thread began with Marcs post and comment, "Came across some interesting videos on wood boilers.
    Exactly what we need in this industry is this kind of talk.
    In my opinion just plain BS: one company trashing another company
    Enjoy!"
    That comment would seem to imply that I actually said "this boiler and this company is trash" when that is simply not the case. Yes there were some obvious issues with the boilers quality, but no names were mentioned other than my name trying to trash another company which was never the case. We only were showing what to look for in boiler quality. It is really unfortunate how this has now turned out and that because of Marcs post the manufacture has now been exposed through no fault of mine, we sought to protect the identity of the manufacture, not bad mouth them. The way this has all turned out is very unfortunate.
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  18. kopeck

    kopeck Minister of Fire

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    I think I can simplify this for you, and this is an honest suggestion, not trying to "stir the pot".

    Make a video proclaiming the Econoburns merits. Forget the heads up comparison, just focus on the positives. What would be even better is complete real world walk through of how it's built, how's it's operated and maintained.

    The crux of the problem is that you created videos that are viewed in a certain light. That may not be how you intended it but at the end of the day it's how joe public consumes the video and not the initial intentions.

    K
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  19. Fred61

    Fred61 Minister of Fire

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    When I was shopping for a new gasser, I looked at the Econoburn and felt it was a well built boiler. I didn't purchase it for a couple other reasons. The only other two US made gassers I had seen were the Woodgun and the Essex and the design was much different on those two units. I was struck by the fact that the Econoburn was using the same technology as the Euro boilers.

    After seeing the video, I'm wondering if the poorly made unit was the model (or one like it) that was reverse engineered to design the US made unit. There may be huge differences in the quality but there are striking similarities in the design.
  20. Obadiah

    Obadiah “Extinguishing Mediocrity”

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    Point well taken, not sure the "Joe Public" sees the videos the same way, but obviously some folks here were offended and that is unfortunate, thank you for your feedback. I'll stew on this a while and see what happens.
  21. DBoon

    DBoon Minister of Fire

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    My impression of the Econoburn before I saw this thread/video is that it was a solidly built boiler.
    My impression of the Econoburn was also that it had somewhat outdated, antiquated controls (i.e. no lambda control option) and that their entire marketing message is that it is a well-built boiler.
    I would not buy a boiler without a lambda control. In that regard, the Econoburn marketing message falls flat to my ears.

    On this forum, I never see posts by owners of lambda control boilers making adjustments to their air control settings - they just work well by design. While some may argue that a boiler with "standard" (non-lambda) controls is not that hard to use, my wife or others not as interested in fine adjustments of the air intake would surely prove otherwise, as my wife consistently does with the wood stove. Of course, the boiler shown in the video is obviously not one of the makes I would consider - this is obvious to me.

    I usually buy American-made products for a variety of reasons. I recently paid a premium for my solar install to have American made solar panels. However, I won't buy an Econoburn with their current control systems. They should offer their units with lambda controls as well, which is the direction that European-made boilers are all headed in. If you just want to compete against the cheapest imports, then don't invest in better controls. If you want to make a higher profit margin it is good to appeal to those who might not make their entire purchasing decision on price alone.

    This is one opinion from one potential customer of one wood boiler that will be purchased in the next two years. It can be disagreed with, but it is my opinion, and since I am making the purchase, it is the opinion that counts for the boiler that I will buy.

    My recommendation for Econoburn would be to hire some control engineers and come out with some products that maintain their high build quality but that can go toe to toe with the best from the Europeans. That would get my attention.
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  22. Obadiah

    Obadiah “Extinguishing Mediocrity”

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    Thanks I can see your point and I will be taking what you said very seriously. I will most likely take your advice and change the name of the video or possibly remove it all together for the sake of the importer as I don't want to cast as bad light on them and their product.
  23. kopeck

    kopeck Minister of Fire

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    I think that's a good idea. Your current title implies that all imports are the same, when in fact you have a single unit that your product compares favorably against.

    I don't think many here would disagree that of the two units in your video, the Econoburn is the better built.

    As far as "Joe Public" goes, you are right, they probably wouldn't see it the same way as "Informed Boiler Bill". You are trying to influence them buy your product, nothing wrong with that, that's marketing! All of us "Boiler Bills" here just cried foul because we know that not all imports are of poor quality and didn't want Joe Public to think that was the case.

    It's a bit of a Chevy v. Ford thing but with a far less informed buying public.

    K
  24. Obadiah

    Obadiah “Extinguishing Mediocrity”

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    Fellow "Boiler Bills" I slept on it and your correct, so this morning I changed the name of the video to, "What To Look For In A Wood Gasification Boiler" . Hope this helps defuse this situation a little more. Thanks again for your impute.
  25. arbutus

    arbutus Burning Hunk

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    Thank you.

    I appreciate your support of this site, and would venture to guess that nearly all here would agree.

    Up front comparisons are definitely something I can appreciate when purchasing something like this. Sure the Econoburn costs more, but tell me and other potential buyers why. Thicker steel, more stays, better welds, etc.

    It really goes a long way with me if all the products a vendor is selling have been evaluated by him in this manner. If someone wants an import (which you sell) because of price point, at least he had the chance to find out the real differences that go into price, rather than just reading the manufacturer's notes and promotional material, which I find to be fairly generic in most cases. Video or printed evaluations make it easy to convey your impressions of things like manufacturer support, parts availability, warranty claims frequency and service, and level of user input for successful operation.
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