Sources for gas without ethanol in it

[Corey]

...I filled up there once and watched the milage display in my 300C slowly drop while waiting at the red light by the station. Definate measureble results.

Wow - seriously?...your mileage dropped while you were idling at a red light? You mean burning gas while sitting still causes a mileage decrease...I'll bet that is the ethanol! (Hint - if you're not moving, mpg is going to go down on ANY fuel, you're getting 'zero' miles per gallon at a stoplight.

Hopefully the loss of gov't subsidies and increasing pressure of food prices will make ethanol spiked gasoline a thing of the past.

It will certainly be interesting to see if ethanol becomes a thing of the past, or if sending trillions of oil dollars and thousands of jobs overseas makes our country a thing of the past first. Looking at unemployment and debit, I'm putting my money on the latter.

(Out of curiosity kettensäge - what field do you work in? Just curious of there is a 'cheaper' overseas alternative?)

 

[muncybob]

I thought of this thread when I recently read an article about a "medicinal pot growing town" somewhere out west. Article had a photo of the local general store and there was a sign by the pumps advertising alchohol free gasoline. Apparently you can run your engines and be happy about it, in more ways than one!

 

[kettensäge]

...I filled up there once and watched the milage display in my 300C slowly drop while waiting at the red light by the station. Definate measureble results.

Wow - seriously?...your mileage dropped while you were idling at a red light? You mean burning gas while sitting still causes a mileage decrease...I'll bet that is the ethanol! (Hint - if you're not moving, mpg is going to go down on ANY fuel, you're getting 'zero' miles per gallon at a stoplight.

The car shows an avg. fuel economy, not instant. guess you would need to own one to understand. Do you?

Hopefully the loss of gov't subsidies and increasing pressure of food prices will make ethanol spiked gasoline a thing of the past.

It will certainly be interesting to see if ethanol becomes a thing of the past, or if sending trillions of oil dollars and thousands of jobs overseas makes our country a thing of the past first. Looking at unemployment and debit, I'm putting my money on the latter.


It has been proven that fuel economy is reduced by it's use and that it takes almost the same amount of diesel to plant, harvest and haul corn to the ethanol plant as is created by it. It will be a whole lot less profitable without gov't welfare.
If ethanol adulterated fuel was so great why are all the things you mentioned getting worse instead of better.


(Out of curiosity kettensäge - what field do you work in? Just curious of there is a 'cheaper' overseas alternative?)

Consumer product manufacturing, so yes, overseas jobs and foriegn competition is not so foriegn.


We won't agree on this, probably polar opposites on global warming too.

 

[DanCorcoran]

Global climate change and the efficiency of ethanol versus other fuels. Both are subject to scientific validation or invalidation (don't know that either has yet been determined beyond a reasonable doubt). Having "opinions" on these is ridiculous. You might as well give the world your opinion on water freezing at 32 degrees. You're welcome to do it, but who cares? Why argue about facts that have yet to be determined?

 

[Corey]

...

The car shows an avg. fuel economy, not instant. guess you would need to own one to understand. Do you?

I'm familiar with average mpg. A reading of 0 'instant' mpg from a stoplight, added to the average, will still lower it. Take four instant readings of 25mpg... 25 + 25+ 25 +25 and divide by 4 to get the average = 100/4 = 25mpg. Take the next instant reading at the stop light...25 + 25 + 25 +25 + 0 and divide by 5 to get the average = 100/5 = 20mpg. Our car seems to update the average every minute or two and usually drops at a stoplight - unless the average has accumulated so may readings the few zeros from the light don't change it by .1 mpg - or enough to register.

Kind of surprised you don't support putting money back into the american economy. Pay a farmer/truck driver/steel worker/plant worker for ethanol, they have money to buy your consumer products. Pay a saudi for oil and it's unlikely they'd come back over here and buy your stuff.

 

[KarlP]

All things combined, the actual mileage loss is generally much less than 3%.

I think the impact varies widely by vehicle. In my 1994 car, I see a 10% hit from 10% ethanol. In my 2008 truck, I see a less than 3% hit as you describe.

Is it possible the older car has worn fuel injectors, worn fuel pressure regulator/pump, weak ignition system/old spark plugs, slow responding O2 sensor, slight vacuum leaks or other aging components and E10 makes some existing problem worse which causes a disproportionate drop in mileage?

I guess its possible but highly unlikely. Everything checks out clean on the car and I have recently replaced the O2 sensor when I replaced the exhaust system. If I am able to get real gasoline, the mileage instantly jumps right back to where it was years ago. Of course its been a couple years since I have been able to get real gasoline. But during the transition years the difference was pretty clear. My wife's previous car also saw a 10% improvement every time we bought non-ethanol gas. I don't think her current car has EVER had non-ethanol gas.

 

[Danno77]

I could see there being a difference between older and newer cars for a lot of reasons. Newer cars have the ability to adjust ignition timing in order to get the perfect detonation of the fuel, older cars do not, at least not on the fly and controlled by computers.

There is also a chance that compression plays a factor here. Ethanol does poorly in low compression engines. Older engines sometimes run at lower compressions due to age, and sometimes by design.

I'm no scientist, but those two things seem to be pretty consistently seen as true by both sides of the argument. Course, compression and timing methods vary so wildly on older cars that you can't really generalize anything very easily.

 

[smokinj]

The truth come out but at least he is honest about it, I wish the ethanol thing was a better deal but its not for the most part, when we can make it from other things that grow on marginal land I'm on board. Still not going to use it in certain applications and I am from the CORN state ya know.

LoL, fair enough! BUT Jay's mom and some friend of a guy i know who's neighbor is a mechanic are not scientists. I need to see some empirical evidence that ethanol is worse. I certainly am not saying it's better, but I really haven't seen any studies that show it to be worse. You'd think that big oil companies would be spending millions of dollars to run the concept into the ground, right? Right now all I'm seeing is a bunch of anecdotal evidence, which shouldn't necessarily be discounted, just taken at face value and then lead into studies.

Look up the web site if you want to know Goofball....There is prof one way or another I for one dont want it in my saws and thats all that really matters, but the math has been done on every new car out there that runs e85. ;-)
My moms word has been good enough fro me! Oh my 93 chevy s-10 could care less........Do your own math!

 

[GordonShumway]

I also support putting money back into the American economy. For instance, it would be nice if all the laid off oil drill employees were able to go back to work. Not to forget also profiteering from our own natural resources. So put out a product like ethanol thats processed economically and drill our own oil, I would say we have a win win. Whew, what was the original question of this thread?

 

[kettensäge]

...

The car shows an avg. fuel economy, not instant. guess you would need to own one to understand. Do you?

I'm familiar with average mpg. A reading of 0 'instant' mpg from a stoplight, added to the average, will still lower it. Take four instant readings of 25mpg... 25 + 25+ 25 +25 and divide by 4 to get the average = 100/4 = 25mpg. Take the next instant reading at the stop light...25 + 25 + 25 +25 + 0 and divide by 5 to get the average = 100/5 = 20mpg. Our car seems to update the average every minute or two and usually drops at a stoplight - unless the average has accumulated so may readings the few zeros from the light don't change it by .1 mpg - or enough to register.

Kind of surprised you don't support putting money back into the american economy. Pay a farmer/truck driver/steel worker/plant worker for ethanol, they have money to buy your consumer products. Pay a saudi for oil and it's unlikely they'd come back over here and buy your stuff.

Don't make this political or personal, you don't know what I support. I do what makes sense and will rather buy pure gasoline.
I can't change world economics by preferring a certain type of fuel.
I manage capital investment projects for my company and look to keep my plant open and operating and keep 200 american jobs in place and profitable, well as sourcing US made equipment to purchase whenever possible.

If you are a corn producer or know one, I understand but thats the nature of the beast, things change.
What about farmers of different food crops, how are they fairing against the great corn to ethanol machine?

 

[fabsroman]

When I was doing my test I tried several tanks of ethanol vs non-e. I ONLY drive my car to and from work. 40 miles one way all highway, not a lot you can fudge there. I did not go into the experiment wanting to discredit ethanol. I simply wanted the most bang for my buck. So tell me what my incentive would have been to fly down the highway like a bat out of hell when running ethanol vs. milking the pedal by coasting up all hills and turning off the car going down hills with non-ethanol? I have a 1993 Prism. When I ran ethanol gas I was getting between 31-32 miles/gallon. Without I was getting 35-37 miles/gallon. The 10% was approx. With the amount of driving I do each day it only makes sense to try to be the most efficient bc those re-fuels add up quick. Perhaps the year of car does make a difference along with the type. But my odometer doesn't lie. I hear it said that folks want to see real lab results, that would be great. I would like to add that I would like to see lab results that have no political ties to a political agenda from a lab that does not receive gov. money. My intent was not to turn this into a political rant. I was simply stating in the original post that I wasn't aware that non ethanol gas has been removed completely in parts of the country, since I myself only use the non-ethanol. I suppose in due time it will be removed from all places.

If you really want to make that test scientific, let somebody else fill up the tank and keep the records while you do the driving without knowing which fuel is in the tank. We all might have a little bias one way or another about ethanol versus non-ethanol fuel. Who knows, subconsciously it might have had something to do with the results.

 

[fabsroman]

here you go,Ken

http://pure-gas.org/

Thanks. There isn't a single place within 90 minutes of me that sells it according to that website. I guess that is what I should expect around the DC area. Utterly incredible. I'll probably be making a run up to Harrisburg, PA sometime soon and it looks like there are a few places along the way. Might have to pick up 10 to 20 gallons on that run. I wish some of the farm equipment places around here would carry it. They probably need 15 different licenses and permits to sell gasoline though.

Don't waste your time with a trip to PA. There is no more ethanol free anywhere in the state at traditional gas stations, and it stopped being available on 8/31/2010. It was optional at higher cost until PA built and began running an ethanol producing plant. Not sure about farm stores or marina's.
Anyone can input into Purgas.org. I had corrected several entries for my local area. Someone added stations because there were no stickers on the pumps at those stations that stated an ethanol addition to the gasoline. In PA the stickers are optional and laws vary state to state. I have tested gas from local stations with a test kit that uses water, not just relying on vehicle mileage displays or calculations. This is the only reliable way to be sure regardless of any sign posted or website. We even had 1 station put up a sign saying "no ethylnol". Of course the was none, there is no such thing. I filled up there once and watched the milage display in my 300C slowly drop while waiting at the red light by the station. Definate measureble results.

I have documented a 12% drop in economy in my Dodge as well and I am pro non ethanol, especially in small engines.

Hopefully the loss of gov't subsidies and increasing pressure of food prices will make ethanol spiked gasoline a thing of the past.

Thanks for the info. I wouldn't have been heading up there just for ethanol free gas. I am about to make a drive up there to pick up the chimney for my new furnace. I head up that way every once in a while for other things too. Make a trip or two to Florida every year and go to Long Island once in a while too. Who knows, maybe one day I might be able to find some ethanol free gas.

For the rest of you, my cars run on gas with ethanol in it just fine. With that said, I do have a bone to pick with E85. I have seen it for sale at some of the local stations, and it is priced exactly at a price point to compete evenly with regular gasoline. That is, E85 does not provide the same gas mileage as regular gasoline, so it is priced lower. My question is why can't they actually beat the oil companies on the pricing? Why is it that they cannot out compete the oil companies with the E85? I was hoping to buy an E85 vehicle, possibly a Taurus, and save money on my fuel bill. Now, I am looking at a plug-in vehicle like the 2012 Ford Focus. Granted, I am hoping to keep my 1998 Ford Taurus running for a lot longer, but at 226,000 miles, things are somewhat touch and go.

If we really want to help out this country, keep the jobs here, and keep the environment decent, then we would be buying American made plug-in vehicles. My bone there is that these vehicles are so expensive. Of course, a million studies need to be done about plug-in vehicles. For instance, do we have the electric infrasctructure to provide for them if 25% of the population converted. Is providing that much electricity a good thing for the environment? Are the waste batteries a good thing for the environment? Can the waste batteries be recycled?

We shall see where this all goes. Next, they need to invent some decent battery powered saws, or even plug-in chainsaws. They have construction equipment that runs on batteries like saws-alls, circular saws, etc., but they cannot get chainsaws to runs on electricity that are worth anything. That would solve the ethanol issue.

Might as well derail this thread completely.

 

[oldspark]

Questioning everyone's ability to correctly check their fuel mileage is a little condescending is it not, I am all for putting money back into American hands but we have to be smart about it. The way I understand the 2 stroke thing is it does not mix well with some of the oils (syn. are good) and it can have a tendency to wash the oil off of the cylinder walls.

 

[raybonz]

here you go,Ken

http://pure-gas.org/

Thanks. There isn't a single place within 90 minutes of me that sells it according to that website. I guess that is what I should expect around the DC area. Utterly incredible. I'll probably be making a run up to Harrisburg, PA sometime soon and it looks like there are a few places along the way. Might have to pick up 10 to 20 gallons on that run. I wish some of the farm equipment places around here would carry it. They probably need 15 different licenses and permits to sell gasoline though.

Don't waste your time with a trip to PA. There is no more ethanol free anywhere in the state at traditional gas stations, and it stopped being available on 8/31/2010. It was optional at higher cost until PA built and began running an ethanol producing plant. Not sure about farm stores or marina's.
Anyone can input into Purgas.org. I had corrected several entries for my local area. Someone added stations because there were no stickers on the pumps at those stations that stated an ethanol addition to the gasoline. In PA the stickers are optional and laws vary state to state. I have tested gas from local stations with a test kit that uses water, not just relying on vehicle mileage displays or calculations. This is the only reliable way to be sure regardless of any sign posted or website. We even had 1 station put up a sign saying "no ethylnol". Of course the was none, there is no such thing. I filled up there once and watched the milage display in my 300C slowly drop while waiting at the red light by the station. Definate measureble results.

I have documented a 12% drop in economy in my Dodge as well and I am pro non ethanol, especially in small engines.

Hopefully the loss of gov't subsidies and increasing pressure of food prices will make ethanol spiked gasoline a thing of the past.

Thanks for the info. I wouldn't have been heading up there just for ethanol free gas. I am about to make a drive up there to pick up the chimney for my new furnace. I head up that way every once in a while for other things too. Make a trip or two to Florida every year and go to Long Island once in a while too. Who knows, maybe one day I might be able to find some ethanol free gas.

For the rest of you, my cars run on gas with ethanol in it just fine. With that said, I do have a bone to pick with E85. I have seen it for sale at some of the local stations, and it is priced exactly at a price point to compete evenly with regular gasoline. That is, E85 does not provide the same gas mileage as regular gasoline, so it is priced lower. My question is why can't they actually beat the oil companies on the pricing? Why is it that they cannot out compete the oil companies with the E85? I was hoping to buy an E85 vehicle, possibly a Taurus, and save money on my fuel bill. Now, I am looking at a plug-in vehicle like the 2012 Ford Focus. Granted, I am hoping to keep my 1998 Ford Taurus running for a lot longer, but at 226,000 miles, things are somewhat touch and go.

If we really want to help out this country, keep the jobs here, and keep the environment decent, then we would be buying American made plug-in vehicles. My bone there is that these vehicles are so expensive. Of course, a million studies need to be done about plug-in vehicles. For instance, do we have the electric infrasctructure to provide for them if 25% of the population converted. Is providing that much electricity a good thing for the environment? Are the waste batteries a good thing for the environment? Can the waste batteries be recycled?

We shall see where this all goes. Next, they need to invent some decent battery powered saws, or even plug-in chainsaws. They have construction equipment that runs on batteries like saws-alls, circular saws, etc., but they cannot get chainsaws to runs on electricity that are worth anything. That would solve the ethanol issue.

Might as well derail this thread completely.

My understanding is that it takes as much energy to create corn ethanol that it produces so basically you gain practically nothing and increase the cost of corn as a food source.. You can thank the corn lobbyists for this one and the idiots that let the lobbyists control this country.. If you look at Brazil they have had it figured out and use sugar cane which is very efficient for alcohol production but that will not work in USA.. I have heard the best way to do it here is to grow switch grass and then you will gain from it.. E85 increases fuel consumption dramatically and you will be filling up much more often due much less mpg..

Ray

 

[MasterMech]

here you go,Ken

http://pure-gas.org/

Thanks. There isn't a single place within 90 minutes of me that sells it according to that website. I guess that is what I should expect around the DC area. Utterly incredible. I'll probably be making a run up to Harrisburg, PA sometime soon and it looks like there are a few places along the way. Might have to pick up 10 to 20 gallons on that run. I wish some of the farm equipment places around here would carry it. They probably need 15 different licenses and permits to sell gasoline though.

Don't waste your time with a trip to PA. There is no more ethanol free anywhere in the state at traditional gas stations, and it stopped being available on 8/31/2010. It was optional at higher cost until PA built and began running an ethanol producing plant. Not sure about farm stores or marina's.
Anyone can input into Purgas.org. I had corrected several entries for my local area. Someone added stations because there were no stickers on the pumps at those stations that stated an ethanol addition to the gasoline. In PA the stickers are optional and laws vary state to state. I have tested gas from local stations with a test kit that uses water, not just relying on vehicle mileage displays or calculations. This is the only reliable way to be sure regardless of any sign posted or website. We even had 1 station put up a sign saying "no ethylnol". Of course the was none, there is no such thing. I filled up there once and watched the milage display in my 300C slowly drop while waiting at the red light by the station. Definate measureble results.

I have documented a 12% drop in economy in my Dodge as well and I am pro non ethanol, especially in small engines.

Hopefully the loss of gov't subsidies and increasing pressure of food prices will make ethanol spiked gasoline a thing of the past.

Thanks for the info. I wouldn't have been heading up there just for ethanol free gas. I am about to make a drive up there to pick up the chimney for my new furnace. I head up that way every once in a while for other things too. Make a trip or two to Florida every year and go to Long Island once in a while too. Who knows, maybe one day I might be able to find some ethanol free gas.

For the rest of you, my cars run on gas with ethanol in it just fine. With that said, I do have a bone to pick with E85. I have seen it for sale at some of the local stations, and it is priced exactly at a price point to compete evenly with regular gasoline. That is, E85 does not provide the same gas mileage as regular gasoline, so it is priced lower. My question is why can't they actually beat the oil companies on the pricing? Why is it that they cannot out compete the oil companies with the E85? I was hoping to buy an E85 vehicle, possibly a Taurus, and save money on my fuel bill. Now, I am looking at a plug-in vehicle like the 2012 Ford Focus. Granted, I am hoping to keep my 1998 Ford Taurus running for a lot longer, but at 226,000 miles, things are somewhat touch and go.

If we really want to help out this country, keep the jobs here, and keep the environment decent, then we would be buying American made plug-in vehicles. My bone there is that these vehicles are so expensive. Of course, a million studies need to be done about plug-in vehicles. For instance, do we have the electric infrasctructure to provide for them if 25% of the population converted. Is providing that much electricity a good thing for the environment? Are the waste batteries a good thing for the environment? Can the waste batteries be recycled?

We shall see where this all goes. Next, they need to invent some decent battery powered saws, or even plug-in chainsaws. They have construction equipment that runs on batteries like saws-alls, circular saws, etc., but they cannot get chainsaws to runs on electricity that are worth anything. That would solve the ethanol issue.

Might as well derail this thread completely.

http://www.stihlusa.com/chainsaws/MSE220.html - This ain't no Wal-Mart saw....

 

[fabsroman]

here you go,Ken

http://pure-gas.org/

Thanks. There isn't a single place within 90 minutes of me that sells it according to that website. I guess that is what I should expect around the DC area. Utterly incredible. I'll probably be making a run up to Harrisburg, PA sometime soon and it looks like there are a few places along the way. Might have to pick up 10 to 20 gallons on that run. I wish some of the farm equipment places around here would carry it. They probably need 15 different licenses and permits to sell gasoline though.

Don't waste your time with a trip to PA. There is no more ethanol free anywhere in the state at traditional gas stations, and it stopped being available on 8/31/2010. It was optional at higher cost until PA built and began running an ethanol producing plant. Not sure about farm stores or marina's.
Anyone can input into Purgas.org. I had corrected several entries for my local area. Someone added stations because there were no stickers on the pumps at those stations that stated an ethanol addition to the gasoline. In PA the stickers are optional and laws vary state to state. I have tested gas from local stations with a test kit that uses water, not just relying on vehicle mileage displays or calculations. This is the only reliable way to be sure regardless of any sign posted or website. We even had 1 station put up a sign saying "no ethylnol". Of course the was none, there is no such thing. I filled up there once and watched the milage display in my 300C slowly drop while waiting at the red light by the station. Definate measureble results.

I have documented a 12% drop in economy in my Dodge as well and I am pro non ethanol, especially in small engines.

Hopefully the loss of gov't subsidies and increasing pressure of food prices will make ethanol spiked gasoline a thing of the past.

Thanks for the info. I wouldn't have been heading up there just for ethanol free gas. I am about to make a drive up there to pick up the chimney for my new furnace. I head up that way every once in a while for other things too. Make a trip or two to Florida every year and go to Long Island once in a while too. Who knows, maybe one day I might be able to find some ethanol free gas.

For the rest of you, my cars run on gas with ethanol in it just fine. With that said, I do have a bone to pick with E85. I have seen it for sale at some of the local stations, and it is priced exactly at a price point to compete evenly with regular gasoline. That is, E85 does not provide the same gas mileage as regular gasoline, so it is priced lower. My question is why can't they actually beat the oil companies on the pricing? Why is it that they cannot out compete the oil companies with the E85? I was hoping to buy an E85 vehicle, possibly a Taurus, and save money on my fuel bill. Now, I am looking at a plug-in vehicle like the 2012 Ford Focus. Granted, I am hoping to keep my 1998 Ford Taurus running for a lot longer, but at 226,000 miles, things are somewhat touch and go.

If we really want to help out this country, keep the jobs here, and keep the environment decent, then we would be buying American made plug-in vehicles. My bone there is that these vehicles are so expensive. Of course, a million studies need to be done about plug-in vehicles. For instance, do we have the electric infrasctructure to provide for them if 25% of the population converted. Is providing that much electricity a good thing for the environment? Are the waste batteries a good thing for the environment? Can the waste batteries be recycled?

We shall see where this all goes. Next, they need to invent some decent battery powered saws, or even plug-in chainsaws. They have construction equipment that runs on batteries like saws-alls, circular saws, etc., but they cannot get chainsaws to runs on electricity that are worth anything. That would solve the ethanol issue.

Might as well derail this thread completely.

http://www.stihlusa.com/chainsaws/MSE220.html - This ain't no Wal-Mart saw....

According to the Stihl website, that electric chainsaw has a faster cutting speed than the MS180, which is a 2.0 bhp saw. My MS261 is a 3.75 bhp saw and I think it is a little on the weak side. Luckily, I bought it for limbing and smaller stuff and have the MS660 for the heavier stuff. I'm guessing that one day electric saws will finally be better than gas powered saws, but it won't be any time soon. Ryobi is starting to produce battery operated lawn equipment, but it still isn't as powerful as gas powered equipment. The way technology has been going, I think it is only a matter of time. The question is, how much time.