Split Level Homes and Wood Heat

[SlyFerret]

Hi guys,
I'm new to the forum, and to wood heating in general.

I have been trying to find information on using wood heat in split level homes, but have been coming up empty handed. Have any of you guys found any good resources online, or have personal experience with using wood heat in a split level home?

We currently have a Majestic Warm Majic fireplace in the family room (lower level of the split), which produces a lot of heat and keeps the room quite toasty warm. The problem is that I can't get any hot air to rise to the mid level of the house (living room, kitchen and dining area), let alone get it up to the bedrooms on the upper level (directly above the lower level).

We're planning to install a wood burning stove on the mid level that we can burn to hopefully eliminate our dependence on propane for heating. Being in a rural area, I am also concerned with the possibility of extended power outages. The fireplace in the lower level can be used to satisfy our need for a cozy visible fire, and the stove on the mid level can keep the house warm.

I will of course be consulting a professional for this project to help me select the exact location for the stove and install it properly, but I want to make sure I have educated myself as much as possible on this subject before I begin working with a dealer/installer.

Thanks!
-SF

 

[Corie]

Your plan sounds pretty good.

As always a floor plan for us is a big help in determining where to install that stove (stick that sucker).

What stoves have you been looking at?

 

[restorer]

Your plan sounds pretty good.

As always a floor plan for us is a big help in determining where to stick that sucker.

What stoves have you been looking at?

"Stick that sucker", hummmm interesting technical language, care to de-technify that for us, erhh, regular guys and gals??????

 

[philaphire]

Ah yes, ye olde split level - here's the thread I started on the same topic complete with pics of my setup. Although most said the lower level would be where to go, I think I am going with the mid level only because we really do spend more time up there

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/3491/

This thread followed and includes discussion on radiant vs. convective heat

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/3520/

Welcome to the forum - lots of good information here!

 

[elkimmeg]

I'm assuming you are going to use an insert in your esisting fireplace?

Here are a few items we need to know to get you started
the fireplace opening size
the flue size
the verticle distance of your chimney
size of your hearth a picture would be helfull
chimney the chimney and liner condition
is it exposed located on an outside wall

the area it will be placed rooms area and how open ther relate to one another.

Note no mention of which manufacturer is best yet
the next most important part of the selection is to find a good retailer to work with
one that knows how to install the stove correctly and one that will support the product after the installation
If doing a self install plenty here have done it and they can advise and share their experiences This should get it started and lead to a long discussion.

Many start out the same as you have and get more educated and more knowledgee than the person selling you the stove.

A price range would also help with the stove matchup. I think your setup will require a full lineer block off plate installation.
we will know more as you supply more details

Welcome aboard the Hearth

 

[Corie]

Sorry Uncle Rich, I know my technical jargon can occasionally get too thick for all put the most seasoned veterans to handle.

 

[MrGriz]

Welcome to Hearth.com Sly!

I have a similar setup to yours. We have a three bedroom tri-level that is just over 1800 square feet. The lower level (where the fireplace with insert is located) has an open staircase through the main entry, leading to the main level with the kitchen, family room and dining area. There is another open staircase leading from the main level to the three bedrooms, which are on the opposite end from the basement, above the garage. I hope that makes sense.

The house has electric baseboard heat in all rooms. This is my first year using the insert as our primary source of heat and so far it's working out very well. Using just the blower on the insert, I am able to keep my office (the lower level) in the low to mid 70's without any trouble, even when the temps drop below zero. The main level usually stays about three degrees cooler than the lower level. The hall between the bedrooms stays a couple degrees cooler than the main level. The one place I do not get good heat transfer is into the bedrooms. We leave the baseboard in the master bedroom set at 60, since we like it cool for sleeping. I do turn the electric in my daughter's room up quite a bit.

In our setup, the heat seems to naturally roll up the stairway pretty well. I do notice that if I have the blower on the insert turned off, there is a bigger difference in temps between the lower and main levels. You may want to experiment with either ceiling fans or box fans at floor level to distribute the heat better. Try running a ceiling fan in reverse on the main level (if you have one). Otherwise, you can use a floor level fan to direct cold air back toward the stairs and down to the lower level. Once you start the air circulating you may notice a big difference.

I hope this helps a bit. Please keep the questions comming, we're all here to try and help.

 

[SlyFerret]

I've attached a .jpg image of the house layout. It is rough, and not exactly to scale. I didn't take any measurements, so it is all made from memory, but it should be good enough to get an idea of how the house is setup. The house is about 1600 square feet.

On the mid level, the red dots are possible locations for a wood stove. I'll let the professionals figure out exactly where to put it. The dealerthat I talked to said that they would be happy to send somebody to take a look so that they can make suggestions and give me an estimate as to what it will cost.

The partial wall between the kitchen and the living room does not go all the way to the vaulted ceiling. There is about a 2 foot gap above the wall to the ceiling.

The stove that I'm thinking of is the Quadra-Fire 3100 step top. I haven't made any final decisions yet, but that is the one that I really like.

I want to keep the fireplace in the lower level (on the far wall directly forward of the stairs) as-is.

Thanks!
-SF

 

[Corie]

Thanks for the photo.

Also, I don't know if you were considering having an engineer do a full thermal analysis on the house as far as heat loss and BTU's needed. But if you were I'd be happy to provide that service to you.

 

[SlyFerret]

Oops, I just noticed that I put the red dot by the stairs right at the bottom of the stairs to the upper level. That dot should be moved up towards the top of the image a bit so that it is next to where the bottom of the stairs would be.

As far as thermal analysis, we haven't gotten that far into the process yet.

I'm still confused as to why the family room stays toasty with the warm majic fireplace running, but the mid level doesn't get any of the heat. I'm finding that heat doesn't always rise when you want it to. I'm not sure why cooler air from the mid level doesn't flow down the stairs into the family room, nor does the warm air rise up through the stairway.

I'm guessing that for the current setup to work, I'm going to need some sort of regurn path for the air so that there is a complete circuit. I guess air can't rise and fall in the same stairway at the same time.

If I put a wood stove on the mid level, I think I'll have a better chance of heating the whole house, but I'll still have to figure out how to make sure the heat will rise up the stairway to the bedrooms.

-SF

 

[SlyFerret]

Well, here it is, almost 10 months later... My plans have changed a little bit.

I was hoping that funds would be available to move forward with this project for this fall, but it looks like I'm going to be using the Warm Majic unit again this year.

Next year, I will be putting an insert into the Warm Majic fireplace on the lower level of my split. I still have my eye on that Quadrafire 3100i. I don't know for sure if it will fit, but I'm going to leave that up to the pro's when they come out to look at my situation when the time comes for that. If it won't, I'll work with them to select an appropriately sized unit.

I've done some reading and thinking about airflow and how to make the convection currents work better with my setup. From what I can tell, I need to find some way to allow cooler air from the upstairs portion of the split to fall down into the lower level in order to displace the less dense warmer air up the stairway. The warm air doesn't want to rise up the stairway on its own like one might have thought it would.

Where can I find information on codes? I want to find out if I can install some ductwork from the upstairs to the downstaris to allow for the cold air to fall into the lower room.

-SF

 

[luv2byte]

We have run the fan at all times on our heat pump, this helps ciculate the air to all areas of the house. We have a 2400sq split level (2 levels only vs your 3 it sounds like) and our Lopi Freedom insert heats the whole house. We also have a blower fan on our insert.

 

[SlyFerret]

Have you done anything to close any of the returns or vents to help control the cirulation of the air?

-SF

 

[begreen]

Do you have a box fan or a standard table top fan? If yes, put the fan at the top of the stairs going down to the family room. Set the fan so that it is blowing towards the stove and run it on low. Report back on how that works.

 

[SlyFerret]

Thanks BeGreen. I'll give it a shot. It's going to be 65 degrees around here today, so I won't be burning anything tonight. I'll have it fired up over Thanksgiving though.

-SF

 

[shaggymatt]

You pretty much have the exact same floor lay out as my split level. I do have a basement under the living room, and your kitchen area, mine is broken into a kitchen and dining room. I think that the listing said it was like 1800 sq. feet. We also had the family room (basement) carpeted, which I think made a big difference, and mine is open all the way to the back of the house.

I had an Osburn 2400i installed the day after I had settlement (9/26). My wife wanted to save money and use the existing open hearth. I followed the old saying of buy it and ask for forgiveness later, after all, I made a nice profit on the sale of my townhome that I lived in long before she moved in with me.

I have now been burning 24/7 for almost two weeks. My heat pump has not come on at all since I've been burning. The house is about 71º in the mornings when there are just hot coals left. In the evening when we're there to tend to the fire, it is ~74º. Daytime highs have been in the 40's nights have been down into the upper 20's, but usually low 30's.

We tend to use the built in circulator fan on low when we're in the room so that the noise doesn't drive us mad. For nighttime we switch it to high. The beauty is that the bedroom floors above get nice and warm which radiates the heat into those rooms. Then the living room/kitchen floor gets enough of the warm air rolling up the stairs. I'd say that the heating portion of the stove works much better than I ever anticipated with just the natural flow of the house.

My only complaint is backdrafting. I haven't yet given up that it might be operator error. So far I've found that I can only open the stove door when there are no flames in the firebox. Which really isn't that bad of a thing, as once the fire is burning, you really have no need to open the door.

Just for giggles, my energy usage graph is attached, can you see where I started burning??

 

[begreen]

Yes, ultimately I'm wondering if this can be fixed by having an insert with a good blower in it.

 

[SlyFerret]

The Warm Majic unit that I have has a blower in it. It puts out quite a bit of heat, and easily makes the lower room 85 degrees.

I'll set up a box fan to help force some cooler air from the mid-level into the lower level. I also have a ceiling fan in the lower part of the split. Any suggestions on the best direction to run the ceiling fan in the room with the fireplace? Last year, I had it set to move air upwards towards the ceiling so that it was not blowing down onto us. Does that sound like the right way to have it set?

-SF

 

[luv2byte]

Have you done anything to close any of the returns or vents to help control the cirulation of the air?

-SF

We leave all vents open, even in bedrooms that are not used. We do get a drastic difference for when we run the fan on the wood stove vs when we don't. Normally we run the fan full blast once the stove gets up to temp then when the house is just about at a cozy temp we turn the fan down to its lowest speed. This method maintains the whole house at a nice cozy temp. We do turn the fan up full blast when we go to bed so to take full advantage of the warmth from the wood while we have it burning. We also have a very open concept design with low ceilings (by today's standards), this also helps campture the heat.

 

[RedRanger]

Our home is similar to yours but with one more level. In the finished rec-room where the insert is we use the blower on the fireplace, and I installed a doorway fan on the door leading out of the recroom going up the stairs, and at the top of those stairs on the second level I run a ceiling fan, and on the third level, I run the bigger ceiling fan in reverse. Fireplace has been running all day, and it is 78 in the rec room, 74 on the second level, 68 on the third level, and 64 on the fourth level where the bedrooms are. This seems to work quite well as we spend most of our time in the winter in the recroom where the big screen is.lol

On the third level we have a Napoleon Propane Insert which I will run for about 2 hours a day to keep the temp up when it is cold as it is now (34 degrees) outside. We also have an old oil-fired boiler for central heat. We use a programmable thermostat, and the central heat is set at 55 for overnight, and it rarely comes on. It does come on in the morning at 6am cause the heat is set for 65 degrees "want some heat before I get up to light up the fireplace. This is an older house built in 1973. At my age ? I really dont want to spend a lot on upgrades-Never,never see the return. Hope this info is of some help to you.

 

[Chettt]

I have a 2000 sq foot bi-level with a woodstove on the lower level at the far end away from the stairs. It heats both levels terrifically with no fans. If the house is cold it takes a couple of loads for the heat to start warming the upstairs but once warm, a 300 to 400 degree stove top temperature holds the temperature.

My question to you is, where do you think the heat is going? I added extra attic insulation and it really helped "dam up" the heat. Also if you have a false ceiling in the lower level and can remove a tile, that heat will really warm the floor of the upper level.

Best of luck and keep trying.

 

[reaperman]

You mention you are trying to rid your dependence on propane. Does this mean you have gas furnace? If so, I wouldn't rule out installing a wood furnace to direct the heat throughout the existing ductwork of your home. A wood furnace is basically the same price of a woodstove, maybe less expensive than the quadrafire your looking at. A wood furnace definately solves the problem of heat distribution, if you have the ducts.

 

[SlyFerret]

I'm not exactly trying to rid myself of propane. I'll be setting the thermostat on the furnace so that it will kick on and keep the house from getting to cold in the event that the fire were to go out overnight. We could always fall back on it if we needed to. In the area though, I'm confident that I can secure an ample supply of wood for free, which beats the cost of propane any day.

At the moment, part of the problem may be that my warm majic unit is a fireplace instead of a stove (I can't wait to get an insert in there). As such, I have to babysit it and continually load more splits. With the fireplace, I'm never going to get the kind of burn times (or efficiency) that I would get with a stove. DiscoInferno helped me last year (he has worked with a similar unit) with a little bit of technique to help get a little more control over burn times, etc... It does throw out a lot of heat though, and we usually slow the blower back down once the room warms up.

I'm not sure where the heat is going. It doesn't seem to be leaving the room where the fireplace is. It can easily be 85 degress in that room, and less than 65 at the top of the stairs. The house is only 10 years old, and seems to be pretty well insulated. There is insulation in all walls, as well as the attic.

I'm going to try BeGreen's trick with the box fan when it gets cold over Thanksgiving. It might be just enough to kickstart the convection currents around the house. The way the ceiling is shaped upstairs, and with the ceiling fan in the kitchen, once I can get the heat flowing up to that area, it will move to the bedroom level easily. Simply running the oven in the kitchen for a couple hours can make a difference in the bedrooms, so convection in that area seems to happen naturally.

-SF