States threaten to sue EPA

[John Ackerly]

Things are heating up with the NSPS.

Seven states and five advocacy groups are threatening to sue the Environmental Protection Agency for missing its Clean Air Act deadline to review air quality standards for new residential wood heaters.​

Scott Nichols wrote a great reply, pointing out that states are exaggerating, just like industry does sometimes. http://forgreenheat.blogspot.com/2013/08/intent-to-sue-notice-exaggerates.html

A group of non-profits also filed notice to sue. American Lung Association, EarthJustice, which is legal arm of the Sierra Club, EDF and others. I don't agree with all the points in their letter, but its great that they are threatening to sue because otherwise the EPA may take another 2 or 3 years to finalize the rules. This will require them to meet deadlines. More details here:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...8835288983.103745.120546153983&type=1&theater

 

[BrotherBart]

And any Federal suit hasn't taken more than two or three years to settle? Just the discovery phase will be two years or more.

 

[teutonicking]

If these States are so concerned about air pollution from outdoor wood boilers and its effect on their citizens, why don't they just amend their own state clean air programs to reduce air pollution in their own States? Why sue EPA?[/quote]

 

[John Ackerly]

These states haven't filed a suit yet, just a letter to the EPA saying that they will sue if the government sits on these regulations and doesn't get them out for public comment. OMB can sit on regulations for years, as agencies can. But yeah, its ironic that Connecticut is one of the states threatening to sue EPA when they can't even stop installation of unqualified outdoor boilers. I don't know enough of CT, but lots of states figure out a way to do it without getting the legislature involved. The Executive Branch in Rhode Island did that. Once legislatures get involved, outdoor wood boiler industry can move in, hire local lobbyists and spread disinformation, etc. Often they succeed in killing reasonable bills. They will likely put pressure on HPBA to sue the EPA.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

It could get interesting.

 

[StihlHead]

Eh... more BS layered on more BS. Pro or anti OWB, smoke dragon stoves, or the neighbor's kid is causing lung cancer by lighting matches. What a waste of lobby efforts, local, regional, state and national agencies, the courts and legislatures' time and money. If you do not like OWBs or smoke dragon stoves, move to WA state where they are banned. Or get them banned at the local or state level where you live. Nationally this issue is likely to be tied up for eons. And what is the issue here? More EPA requirements like the ones that we have now, where stoves and boilers are tested in ridiculous ways that no one uses them, and efficiencies are posted by the EPA that have nothing to do with the actual efficiencies of the stoves and boilers? I see heaps of dis-information on all sides: the stove/boiler companies, the state and regional agencies, the lobby groups, and not in the least, the EPA.

 

[Todd]

Screw the EPA its nothing more than more Gov control.

 

[begreen]

If you do not like OWBs or smoke dragon stoves, move to WA state where they are banned.
.

I thought they are banned in OR too. Smoke dragons are for sure.

 

[StihlHead]

I thought they are banned in OR too. Smoke dragons are for sure.

I have to update this after talking with the Oregon DEQ today. The online DEQ information is not specific on boilers and is misleading, but... as of now:

ALL WOOD FIRED BOILERS OF ALL TYPES ARE NOT ALLOWED FOR SALE IN THE STATE OF OREGON. Thus, at this time they are all banned (indoor and outdoor). Even the Greenwood IWB that is certified in WA state is not allowed here.

The information on wood stoves is correct though. And there is no particulate size requirement that is allowed in Oregon for boilers. They (the DEQ) is waiting for better EPA testing methods for boilers before they allow them.


........................................................................................................................................

For the record, OWBs are not banned here.

 

[begreen]

My understanding is that OWBs and IWBs are not outright banned. They need to be EPA certified at below 4.5gms/hr. It looks like several on the EPA list that would qualify. http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/owhhlist.html

 

[StihlHead]

My understanding is that OWBs and IWBs are not outright banned. They need to be EPA certified at below 4.5gms/hr. It looks like several on the EPA list that would qualify. http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/owhhlist.html

I did not say that IWBs were banned in WA, only OWBs. OWBs today are banned in WA state by law. According to several WA state gov't sites online: Outdoor wood-fired boilers cannot be legally sold in the state of Washington.... they do go on to say... the Washington State Department of Ecology is willing to consider allowing OWBs to be sold in Washington if the manufacturers can prove they meet Washington’s emission standards.

So maybe they will "consider" un-banning them... but for now, they cannot be sold. IWBs have to meet the WA state requirements. Last I looked, Greenwood was the only WA state certified IWB, EPA or otherwise certified. I believe that is still the case. WA state has a separate review and approval process than does EPA.

[Wow, you guys took away the color and size text option on this forum in the update... sad that. The new text tools on this forum are far worse than they were before...]

 

[StihlHead]

To update, Greenwood is still the only WA state approved IWB. Harman and Kunzel have IPBs approved (indoor pellet boilers). But that is the complete list, according to the WA state gov't:

http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/air/indoor_woodsmoke/pdfs/wood_Hydronic.pdf

No OWBs are approved in WA state.

 

[begreen]

Yeah, I read that. The list is over a year old. Maybe the demand in WA is not high for OWBs? Not sure about the market demand but several companies meet the IWB particulate qualifications.

 

[StihlHead]

As for the age of the info, that is the latest available from your great state, so I have to presume it is up to date.

WA state requires that any stove/boiler company apply for state certification after they test EPA compliant. That does not mean that they will automatically approve it, and I presume there are fees and BS hurdles to go through to get it. Greenwood is in WA so they obviously have a good reason to. They also enjoy a complete monopoly on wood boilers of any type in WA state at this time.

Demand for wood boilers has never been that great in any of the western states. The Midwest and Northeast are by far the largest markets for them.

 

[StihlHead]

I called the Oregon state DEQ today and asked for a clarification about wood boilers, both in indoor and outdoor. The answer was rather draconian, and they do not have it listed on their web site. Nor is it what others have listed on web sites, that there is a 4.5 particulate size requirement. Nor is it what I thought it was, or had posted here. The new law is:

At this time, no OWB or IWB sales or installations are allowed in the state of Oregon. Period. Thus they are outright banned. Oregon DEQ is waiting for better standards from EPA in order to test wood boilers, but until that time, they will not be allowed to be sold in this state. I asked about the Greenwood IWB that was certified in WA, and the lady was intrigued that one had actually passed. However, Oregon does not have any standard like WA state does, and thus even the Greenwood IWB is not allowed here. Indoor wood furnaces are allowed, if they are set up like conventional furnaces. But that's it. Current EPA OWBs were allowed to be sold here for a while, but they decided that the voluntary program was too varied. The CB web site has "Not for sale in Oregon" on all their OWBs now.

Wood stoves are very much different, and the DEQ in Oregon is far more lenient than WA state. Wood stoves only need to be EPA certified, or Oregon DEQ certified (they have a list). Which is rather odd. So, unbeknown to me, this state is now the most evil anti of all anti-OWB states. Move here if you do not like wood boilers.

 

[begreen]

I like OR wines and beers.

 

[StihlHead]

I like OR wines and beers.

When I was a kid you could not buy beer or wine in a store on Sundays and holidays, and they had the areas closed off or covered in tarps on those days. They did away with that, but Oregon is still a prohibition state in many ways. WA did away with state run liqueur stores, but you pay more than we do for booze here. But you can legally buy the chronic in WA now. "I'll take a quarter ounce of the White Widow please...." Puff puff puff...