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Stihl Dealer Flagged by "Papa" Stihl for Selling on Ebay

Post in 'The Gear' started by Boog, Dec 30, 2012.

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  1. fabsroman

    fabsroman Minister of Fire

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    lol - I did that on my F350 just over 9 years ago. However, I just did a search through Ford's website for the dealers with the truck I wanted on their lots, and then started e-mailing them about it. Did the same thing on my wife's Focus that we bought 2 1/2 years ago. However, that one involved a little more haggling at the dealership. Me, I just want to spec it all out, be given a price, hit "order" and have the vehicle show up in my driveway. We will eventually get there.
    Boog likes this.

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  2. fabsroman

    fabsroman Minister of Fire

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    Yeah, I heard the same "warranty" issue from the local Colnago dealer regarding my frames. He was pissed that I had bought them from Switzerland and had to drive home the fact that the warranty would be 1 year only versus 3 years from an authorized Colnago dealer. Well, here is my point on that. The Cristallo from Switzerland was $2,500 versus the dealer's $3,600 and the C50 was $3,200 versus the dealer's $4,500. I saved $2,400 between the two frames. Enough to almost buy another frame should one of them break between years 1 and 3. Here we are 7 years after the purchase of the Cristallo and almost 5 years after the purchase of the C50 and not a problem whatsoever. Tried to buy some spokes from that same local dealer and the service was terrible. Same goes for some replacement parts for my Campagnolo Record brakes. I had stripped the small titanium barrel adjuster and the only place I was able to find it was through the internet. That reminds me, the entire lecture was the result of me taking the Cristallo there to buy a headset and have them install it. The price on the headset was 33% more than over the internet and they scratched the clearcoat on the frame. After that experience, I spent $400 on headset installation and removal tools so I would never have to take my bikes to the shop to be worked on again (i.e., the headset was the only thing I did not have the tools for).

    Had a warranty issue with a Browning gun once, and the manufacturer decided to deny my claim. So, that was the last Browning I ever bought. Have only bought Ruger rifles and Beretta/Benelli shotguns since then, and it has been 20 years since then. Had minor warranty issues on 3 Beretta guns, and they took care of them right away, even swapping a new $4,500 gun for one of the ones I had a problem with and giving me new wood stocks on the other two, and the new wood was definitely an upgrade in the stock as far as grain, etc. was concerned. Ruger was extremely helpful on the phone regarding the mounting of a scope and offered to swap the scope rings that came with the gun for taller rings for the large scope I wanted to use on it. That was done via the phone and mail. Beretta/Benelli and Ruger will continue to get my money. Point is that if Stihl turns out to be tough to deal with, then I will go elsewhere and sell all the Stihl saws I own.

    While my Stihl dealers are not too far away, I still cringe at making the 16 and 24 mile round trip drives just to order a part that I might have to wait to get anyway. Another thing I wonder about is whether there is a parts/repair manual for each specific saw. That would be something nice to have. Might have to go and start another thread on this. One of the reasons I buy Campagnolo instead of Shimano is for the durability and repairability. Same goes for Stihl. However, Campagnolo offers diagrams of the parts and all the small parts that go with it, and the repair parts are actually available online.
    Boog likes this.
  3. fabsroman

    fabsroman Minister of Fire

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    MasterMech,

    I am going to assume you are somewhat biased on the subject since it appears that you were/are a dealer or work/used to work for a dealer. Yes, the internet sales model slashes profit margin because it allows everybody to compete across the entire world. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. Stihl could also just sell the saws directly to consumers and ship them from storehouses all over the world.

    Stihl could easily change its business model in my opinion. Instead of authorized dealers, have authorized repair centers/showrooms where what is being offered is a service that some people cannot do without. Require the authorized service centers to have a little show area for the saws and other Stihl items. I ordered a Stihl cant hook from one of my authorized dealers, sight unseen, and it took forever to come in. In fact, I had already cut, split, and stacked 2 years worth of firewood (i.e., 10 cords) in the time it took to come in.

    I am ready to buy a MS170 as a limbing saw, and that is pretty much just based upon the information that I have seen on Stihl's website. Don't really need my dealer's opinion on it or any other opinion for that matter. It really would be nice if I could order it online and have it mailed to my door if shipping is not a prohibitively expensive item. I can tell you one thing for sure, I will NEVER buy chains at my dealers because they want over $30 for chains for my MS261. Got them online for $15 each.

    Another issue with my dealers is that they do not stock all the saws, so I have to order them and wait anyway. Had to wait for the MS660. So, what good is a brick and mortar shop if I have to wait for my MS660 and my cant hook. If they aren't stocking it, I might as well order it online and have it shipped. Probably the same wait time, and regarding the cant hook probably a lot less.

    I have ordered several John Deere items for my zero turn mower online and had them shipped right to my door for less than the dealer wanted to charge me.

    Don't get me wrong, I think dealers are great for the mechanically challenged. For those not willing to spend money on a chain sharpener and learn how to use it, they can spend $10 per chain to get them sharpened and wait for the dealer to sharpen them. Me, I am buying the chain sharpener and learning how to grind them. Same thing goes for repairs on mowers, tractors, and saws. In today's world, I think the focus for "dealers" has to be on the repair service end, not the actual sale of product.

    In the end, I think a "no internet sales" policy is a very bad idea in today's business climate for big business. I can buy stuff in the middle of a field while hunting, while out on a boat fishing, or in the woods cutting just by using my smartphone.

    In the end, it comes down to the consumer. Is the person a do it yourselfer to the nth degree, or simply an "I want a chainsaw kind of guy with no desire to know how the chainsaw works".
  4. MasterMech

    MasterMech Guest

    There is a repair manual for each saw family to the best of my knowledge.

    You know you guys can order parts by phone right? The dealer just isn't supposed to ship them. Might cut down on those trips. ;)
  5. MasterMech

    MasterMech Guest

    I'm biased because I own/run a small business in the OPE industry. Service/parts only, I do not sell new wholegoods but would like that opportunity available to me if/when my business is ready for it.

    And you'd end up with a bunch of orange and white Poulan-type saws. Maybe if you're lucky they could keep a professional line-up but the quality of the line as a whole (especially the homeowner/mid-range stuff) wouldn't stay where it is.

    I walked into my dealer and bought mine. You can order the same tool from LogRite, it'll be blue instead of orange and last time I checked, you could order online. ;)

    Unfortunately, not every dealer stocks the whole line. I knew we only sold 1-2 660's every year, sometimes 3-4, but I always had one in stock. It's not really a big deal to keep it around, as all the 290's headed out the door paid for it easily. >> But I didn't lose a sale just because I didn't have product. Always fought the GM on that one. Plus it wasn't a big deal to do a saw/blower/trimmer order big enough for us to get free freight, every week or two. Recently a dealer posted a pic of their "huge" order of equipment they got in just in time for Sandy. It would have fit in the back of my Canyon. I giggle as I remember unloading half a 53' Semi every season (3x a year) and that doesn't include the "little" orders that went in 2x a month.

    I'm sorry you don't have a fantastic dealer to deal with. Sometimes sharing your concerns with them will earn you a discount, especially if you're in frequently for parts.

    Then you go back to the internet competition driving the prices/quality of the product so low that repair becomes less and less economically viable. OPE is a big industry and a part of our national economy. Without high-quality durable goods to repair, the service end of the industry will die. Last thing I'd want to see is it reduced to a Sears Roebuck kind of chaos. Didn't work for Montgomery Wards either.

    Don't even get me started on Deere. They've gone to favoring multi-store mega-dealerships, with territories that span multiple states, that carry only Deere or Deere sanctioned equipment. (Now that Deere has all but given up on private labeling.) Awfully tough for any small business to break into that market. 1-3 million they want (in available liquid capital) to even consider you for a single store C&CE dealer.

    Stihl knows the importance of small-business and which side their bread is buttered. Changing their entire business model would most likely be catastrophic to their existing dealer network and that won't be good for the mothership at all.
  6. MasterMech

    MasterMech Guest

    They should have been frowning. Imagine the sales they missed out on. Smart dealers pay attention to the forecast during storm season, have their chit together. And will do what it takes to get product when they need it. I'm sure Stihl didn't run out of chain for Sandy. Nor did Oregon, Carlton, Windsor, etc.

    To sit on your arse behind a counter and laugh at somebody just because you don't have the product they need doesn't make sense to me. They could have offered to sharpen your chain, made 2 loops from one (you'd still make money selling it at MSRP), or tried to source a non-Stihl replacement chain.

    If you gotta, you could run with 1 bar nut/stud. ;) If it was just the nut you needed, any M8 flange nut or nut and washer would have done the job.
    ScotO and OldLumberKid like this.
  7. fabsroman

    fabsroman Minister of Fire

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    MasterMech,

    You look at it from your perspective as a prospective dealer, but Stihl needs to look at it from the end user's perspective. You are somewhat pissed at Deere for doing what they did, but what they did is essentially get rid of the mom and pop stores on the low end stuff, which I am fine with. Would be fine with Stihl doing homeowner saws in the big box stores and mid to pro level saws via dealers or internet sales. Stihl's profit on the saws would be exactly the same even if they changed their business model. What bothers you is that the middle man markup (i.e., you) would not be anywhere near what it is now. How will Stihl be able to compete with Husqvarna if Husqvarna changes its business model to cut out the middleman and reduce the final price of its saws? Husqvarna would take over the market and Stihl would be SOL. If Husqvarna can put out a comparable saw, whether homeowner, mid level, or pro grade, as Stihl and they are cheaper than Stihl with cheaper parts, then the only people buying Stihls will be the ones that are loyal to Stihl, and that only gets a company so far.

    There are plenty of high end manufactures out there for every passion I am involved in, and those that allow sales via the internet are still rather expensive. Granted, just not as expensive as going to a dealer. So, Stihl could still make and sell high end stuff even if they allow internet sales. All it would mean is that "dealers" would have to be comfortable with making less on a saw sale and focusing on repair/maintenance instead. Sort of like the car dealerships nowadays. They make hardly anything on car sales but try to make up for it on service. Why wouldn't people still want a pro grade Stihl versus a Poulan? Why wouldn't I want a more powerful, lighter weight saw versus a Poulan. Plus, if I can get it for less money than they cost nowadays, it would be a no brainer versus the Poulan at Home Depot. How many people pass on a $399 Farm Boss for the $199 Poulan at Home Depot because of the price difference? The performance is worlds apart. How about a MS250 versus that Poulan? If people could get a Stihl for closer to what the Poulan costs at Home Depot, Stihl saws would be flying out of Stihl's inventory.

    In the end, it sucks to be a small mom & pop store nowadays unless you have a service to be given that is not merely the storing/ordering and selling of goods.

    Now, time to go buy my Soot Eater from Amazon.
  8. Bigg_Redd

    Bigg_Redd Minister of Fire

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    I don't like working on stuff. At all. That's why I got a Stihl. And that's why I got the Stihl I got before I got my current Stihl.
  9. Bigg_Redd

    Bigg_Redd Minister of Fire

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    Could you translate this into complete thoughts for us non-mind readers?
    TreePointer likes this.
  10. MasterMech

    MasterMech Guest

    So why haven't they yet? They're in Lowes and Sears already. You can buy 75% of their line online from anybody you choose. If it's such an obvious choice, I think they'd have done it by now. Husky is #2. I don't think going to an internet centered retail model is going to get them to the #1 slot.

    Same number of people I watched pass up a $399 455 Rancher at lowes for a $199 20" 46cc Poulan "Pro". (at least 4 in the 20 minutes I was there!)

    Can't get blood from a stone, there isn't a lot of room on new sales as it is. Especially homeowner/entry-level product. Care to take a stab at what the margin is for the high-end of the market? We're talking about your 660 here. Go ahead, I'll tell you if you're right or how far off you are.

    But apparently they can't, or don't, since when you go apples to apples, and MSRP to MSRP, Stihl wins 9 out of 10 times. Husky 445 is $309.95, MS250 - 18" is $299.95, 455 Rancher is $429.95, MS290 is $399.95. in it's most expensive trim, 20". Husky 576Xp Autotune is $949.95 while Stihl's MS441CM with Mtronic is $909.95 (25"). So tell me fabs, why isn't Husky killing Stihl? ;)

    PS: Just bought a $300 high-end flashlight off the internet. No dealers involved. :p
  11. MasterMech

    MasterMech Guest

    One note fabs,

    You gotta remember that you, me, Boog, AC, Dex and others like us are in the minority of chainsaw buyers/users. Product quality/performance is what matters the most to us, with price a close second. We buy the absolute best products we can afford at the lowest price available. Sacrificing quality for price won't get you far with us (how many of us exclusively own homeowner/mid-range saws?).

    What's convenient for us isn't necessarily good for the industry as a whole.
  12. DexterDay

    DexterDay Guest

    Im about 50/50 on this whole issue. I like a good deal as much as the other guy. But in turn, I do like my Mom and Pop shops, I try to support the local economy.

    I have bought some good aftermarket parts for my Stihls online, but have gotten some chit also (crank seals for my MS260 are Shot) I am a young man in an age old industry, but what i have learned, is good chit aint cheap. You get what you pay for..

    I'm gonna put my line in the sand there. This will quickly head to the Can if it continues down this path.

    If I fan get a good deal, I want it. Cutting out the middle man is good for the end consumer. But it always hurts someone. Again. I love a great deal.

    I see your side MM, but coming from just a consumer, the ability to buy any OEM part from my Couch at home is nice (coming from a guy who sold ALL his huskies and has 5 Stihls now (just won ANOTHER 036 PRO on eBay) and 6 if you count the MS192-t I let my buddies Father "Borrow" while I cut on his property (may end up giving it to him).
    ScotO likes this.
  13. MasterMech

    MasterMech Guest

    I guess I have two points, local dealers are generally good for the OPE business, both the retail and service side of it. And rushing to sell over the internet isn't necessarily the path to success. I like ordering parts from my home too. And you can always phone your dealer to get the parts you need, good dealers will special order and have stuff in next day if you have a dire need and are willing to pay for the shipping. Some, like mine, order almost every day, and usually get things in 1-3 days with no extra expedited shipping.

    I don't know why we'd send this to the can, still on topic, everyone is playing nice, and I haven't said God, gun, Bush, Republican, or Obama yet. ;lol :p
  14. DexterDay

    DexterDay Guest

    Tu Chet ;)
    Boog and MasterMech like this.
  15. Boog

    Boog Minister of Fire

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    Since I started this, I think we can all say that we understand and respect each others views and concerns. Only time will tell where it all goes from here. I'll continue to try and get what I need as cheaply as possible online, although I will use my local dealers when I need too. In addition to the 3 items that came today, 6 or 7 more are on the way. But I did visit my dealer to order an 031AV starter grip and rope last week. No one online had it, and my dealers didn't even have that diameter rope in stock. Only Papa Stihl could help me out.
  16. fabsroman

    fabsroman Minister of Fire

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    I bought a Stihl and a John Deere because of reputation. How long has Stihl been around versus Husqvarna? Same goes for John Deere and Kubota. However, Kubota is gaining in popularity. The Honda Accord and Toyota Camry did not beat out American sedans right away. Things take time. The internet and internet sales are relatively new. My parents have no idea how to buy things on the internet, but my dad is starting to learn even though he waits for me to enter all the address and credit card information to make the final purchase. He just prints out what he finds online at the lowest price and then asks me to complete the sale. So, the question is whether Stihl is #1 based upon it laurels, and whether Husqvarna can eat into that loyalty through an internet sales model. I looked at both Stihl and Husqvarna when considering the saws I bought, but bought on Stihl's reputation. Had no idea about either company's internet sales policy on small parts and/or saws. Again, I am the end user, and have no stake in arguing the middleman's argument, just the end user's argument.

    Imagine how much more market share Stihl could get if it actually did internet sales at an even lower price point than Husqvarna. Reminds me of how Perdue would put small chicken farmers out of business in small areas. He would just lower the price of his chickens in that area, even incurring a loss himself, because he knew he could afford the loss from that small area and that the small chicken farmer could not. So, the small chicken farmer had to give in to Perdue's demands. Give the internet a couple more decades wherein everybody is a savy internet shopper and purchaser and things are going to be a lot different. Of course, I could be wrong and Stihl might still win through innovation and superior product with an equal price point, but time will tell.
  17. Hearth Mistress

    Hearth Mistress Minister of Fire

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    It was just fustrating. We had 2 chains plus the one in the saw. On busted, two were really dull, from cutting hours on end and hand sharpening ( which I suck at) We all knew the storm was coming but no one anticipated 90 mph winds here this far inland and being without power for almost two weeks because there were so many trees down no one could get to us. When they did, the damage to the power stations were destroyed beyond a quick fix an all of the other utilities were off until the electric lines could be safely repaired. 13 days without electric, 17 days without cable/internet and 18 days without phone. It was worse than anyone expected, no doubt.

    They laughed because people were driving from as far as a hour away trying to get chainsaw parts, anything from any manufacterer but none was around. They didn't have power and were walking people around with flashlights trying to get people what they needed, unlike the big box stores that just never opened.

    It was unfortunate but next time, I'll be posting what I need here as I'm sure you guys would have bailed me out :)
    MasterMech likes this.
  18. fabsroman

    fabsroman Minister of Fire

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    Yep, any of us could have gone to the local dealer and sent you the chains or even e-bay and had the chains shipped directly to you if the USPS, fedex, USPS, etc were still delivering. Then again, hard to post on the internet without power. Good to have a generator and a decent amount of gas just in case.
  19. Hearth Mistress

    Hearth Mistress Minister of Fire

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    Thanks! We were ok with the generator but gas became an issue once the first week passed and as the stations that had power were then out of gas. When we did find a station, it was full of folks from NJ that don't know how to pump gas since the stations pump for you in NJ, making the lines even slower to get through ;) Living so close to NJ and NY everyone was scrambling for gas. Made us re-think our survival plan. My hubby's company makes gas stabilizer so we now keep more on hand in gas cans and swap it out to keep it "fresh" we are also minimalist so the gene wasn't running all day long, just to keep the fridge and chest freezer cold and a few lights. We need to get the gene hard wired to run the well pump so we have water but then we will be set, as long as the trees don't pull the stove pipe down! We got lucky this time, only a passing limb dented the cap!
  20. brian89gp

    brian89gp Feeling the Heat

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    Years ago I used to be into sportbikes and bought a lot of gear through a local mom and pop shop. Always helpful, if you had a problem with anything you could just bring it in and they would take a look at no charge. When I was buying a rather expensive jacket for my girlfriend they ordered two different sizes of several brands at no cost so she could try them all on. They were a repair shop too and were more then willing to answer questions I had about fixing my bike. They cost more then online but I was more then happy to purposefully buy from them and to this day their business is booming.

    The chainsaw dealers around me not so much. The few times I tried to order a part (because it was broken and I needed to use the saw now...) the delivery to the dealer was more then a week out and they weren't overly eager to help me on such a small ticket item nor try to get it any quicker. Bought it online and had it at my door in 2 days. And it was less then half the price even after shipping. The other time they all wanted $40+ just to "diagnose" a saw then more money to tune it and they wouldn't answer any questions I had about how it was supposed to run or things I could to to try and fix it; all I got was the bring it in and we will tell you for $40.

    Perhaps MasterMech your dealership and the ones around you are of high quality with good service at good rates and I would love to have one around here. The ones I have had dealings with I swear they were trying to price themselves out of business and their service was poor so I loose no sleep over buying a fuel hose on ebay for $5 that no dealer would sell to me for less then $30.
    KarlP likes this.
  21. fabsroman

    fabsroman Minister of Fire

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    If you have a $300 to $400 old saw, how much sense does it make to spend $40 on a diagnosis and then another $50+ for the actual repair? That is why these things become throw away items if you cannot fix them yourself. Get a new bar, chain, and sawhead for $300 to $400 and e-bay the parts from the old saw or the entire old saw as parts. Cheaper cars are even like that. Got rid of a 7 year old Hyundai Sonata with 129,000 miles or so on it because the heater core went up and after 2 days of trying to get at the heater core, a $1,300 estimate from the dealer to repair the heater core, prior problems with the car, and a leaking power steering pump it just made more sense to trade it in for $750 and buy a Ford Focus for $14,500.

    I know a guy that buys $100 or less trimmers and as soon as they will not start he throws them away. This year, I did the same thing to a 9 year old pre-lit Xmas tree we had. Spent several hours each Xmas season over the past couple of years trying to fix blown out bulbs. Trying to find replacement bulbs was also pretty tough. Had to buy new light strings and scavenge the bulbs from them, but the bulbs had to be the correct rating. After spending two hours working on it this season, a light bulb lit up, but in my head. Bigger tree, and string lights that can be replaced string by string as they cause problems. $11 a strand when not on sale and a lot less frustrating than trying to find that burnt out bulb. Glad this came up, going to look for replacement strands on sale tomorrow.

    As far as I am concerned, what separates dealers is their service and willingness to help. If they don't want to offer great service, even if that means giving me a little advice on a repair, then I have no loyalty to buy anything from them. Not the repair parts, maintenance parts, etc.
  22. OldLumberKid

    OldLumberKid Feeling the Heat

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    That makes three of us—must have something to do with lube and chains.
    As far as the Stihl was concerned I didn't mind paying a bit more when I have a dealer 5 minutes away who can take care of service issues, and the Stihl reputation for longevity is good.

    As far as the bike was concerned, I maintain 4 heavily used MTBs for the family plus my 2 road bikes, so I figured very quickly I better get a workstand and learn to do a lot of the mech myself, or I'd be paying the LBS 90 bucks every other month to tune cables and fix brakes and whatnot.

    For my latest roadie, I built up my own, I waited for a year to get a hybrid Campagnolo Chorus/Centaur mix groupset at the right price from EuroBike parts (saving hundred$ that way catching it on sale, instead of buying newest latest — but if treated well, it lasts a lifetime — the 84 Nuovo Record is still going strong, freaking amazing.), learned how it all went together and haven't had to tune the cables since the first few test rides. The LBS didn't speak Campy anyway.

    It's kinda like two different things, at least until I learn my way around these saw engines and whatnot. But for now the dealer has been great on the initial issues I had. I can't imagine schlepping 30 minutes to Home Depot to stand in line for another 30 minutes to deal with crummy service and satisfaction. Bollocks to that for a game of soldiers, if you know what I mean.
    ScotO likes this.
  23. fabsroman

    fabsroman Minister of Fire

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    Yeah, ordered several Campy Record groups from 11speed online while they were in business. Paid $1,000 for each groupo back in 2005, 2006 while they wanted $1,800+ for them in the US. The shipping was super fast from Italy too. Eurobike parts is also a pretty good and reasonable seller, as is probikekit out of Great Britain.

    I agree with the Campy stuff lasting forever. I have an old 1985 Super Record groupo on an old Italian frame and I know it has 40,000 miles on it easily. Only thing I have ever had to replace is the rear cogs and chains. The stuff has been amazing. Did have an issue with one of the newer Campy Record brifters with it shifting into the 10th cog, but after rebuilding it everything worked just fine. When I did it 3 years ago, I knew what the problem was after taking it apart. Now, 3 years later I cannot remember for the life of me, much less how it all goes back together. lol

    I am the opposite of you. 6 road bikes and 2 MTB's. Also have 2 repair stands. 1 for repairs in progress and another for a quick repair (e.g., chain lube) before hitting the road. Taking the bikes in for maintenance and repairs would be costly.

    Hoping to get a lot of years from the Stihls before repairs are needed, but getting ready to buy an electric chain sharpener for the Stihl chains because I am running low on sharp ones and refuse to pay the $10 per chain sharpening fee at the local dealers.

    Yeah, I don't tend to buy many tools from Home Depot, but they have been pretty good with returns, etc.

    Just noticed you are from Long Island. My wife was born there and we go to visit her family once or twice a year. She lived in Hicksville. Her sister is currently living about 15 minutes west of Hicksville and my wife's aunts and uncles are still in Hicksville. Might have to bring a road bike up there and get a ride in with you. Have always wanted to bring a bike up there, but too worried about where to go riding up there.
    ScotO likes this.
  24. KarlP

    KarlP Feeling the Heat

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    Been around or been making chainsaws?

    Stihl hired his first employees in 1927 and started making chainsaws in 1929.

    The first Husqvarna gun plant was established in 1689. They were producing sewing machines before Stihl was born. They were making 2-stroke motorcycles for decades before Stihl was in business. They have only been making chainsaws since 1959, so they are totally unknown newbies in this area. ;lol
  25. greg13

    greg13 Feeling the Heat

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    CNY
    I'm going to take the top off of this can of worms and see what happens.

    First, Stilh always has had strict dealer requirements. I toyed with taking on a dealership but did not want to tie up the money for required inventory, It would have been a "Part time" job for me. I can understand their logic since they want dealers that are fully accessible.

    Second, Personally I want to support the LOCAL economy. I'd like to see someone "run down' to their local internet store on a Saturday afternoon to pick up a part to keep cutting for the weekend.

    Third, Why make jobs for another area? Add in shipping and the price may not be as good as it appears.

    Unfortunately many people have bought into the "Walmart method" of buying. Go by price only, who needs service, just buy a new one.
    OldLumberKid likes this.
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