Storage help

[infinitymike]

Hey guys, I need some help.

I want to hook up storage. Thinking about 1000 gallons. Only because it seems that is what most of you guys have.
I haven't done a heat loss calc so maybe that the first place to start to determine the size but lets say I go with a 1000.

I was thinking of getting one horizontal tank. Because I cant get it in the basement and my boiler is in the garage/boiler room, I figured it would be best to put it there.
originally I thought I would do two vertical 500 tanks but I am limited on space, so I thought I would dig a pit, much like a mechanics pit, in the center of the garage bay. I would form out the walls with concrete and then finish the top with removable steel grating.

I had a someone install my system and all though I do heat my house, you guys have said that it probably could have been a done little better.

Basically I have the Wood Gun in the garage/boiler room on the right side of the house.
I have 1" pex running for 63' with 4 elbows.
It then attaches to a loop of 1.25" copper hanging on the basement wall.
That loop is about 4' long by 2' high it has a 007 that pushes the water counterclockwise and then I have 2 zones which each have a 007 pulling the zone water back to the loop.
The Wood Gun has a 00R ifc 3 speed set on high pushing the supply water to the loop

My questions are (and I don't really even know what questions to ask):

1. My boiler would obviously be higher then the tank. Does that pose a problem?

2. How do I pipe it?

3. What else do I ask

 

[maple1]

You're way ahead of me on the piping stuff, but the way the oil comes into the loop looks odd to me. Wouldn't it just short circuit right back to the oil boiler without making it to the zones?

That didn't help your storage questions much, but tanks come in all shapes & sizes - exactly how big is the area that you would like to put tanks in? I'm stacking two 330 tanks, they're 9ft. long & 29 inches in diameter. Should fit right into the space I have - 500's I don't have space for. It would be a bit more plumbing, but you could also tie together some 110 gallon ones - they're about 4 ft by 29 inches. That sounds like a ton of work, digging a hole & all that.

 

[infinitymike]

You're way ahead of me on the piping stuff, but the way the oil comes into the loop looks odd to me. Wouldn't it just short circuit right back to the oil boiler without making it to the zones?

Believe me, I'm not far ahead on the piping stuff at all. And I agree it does seem that oil side would short circuit but that is the same on the wood side. I just realized I colored it wrong. The RETURN of the wood gun is ABOVE the SUPPLY. Some one has told me that all of that loop could have been done differently and it would work more efficiently. I noticed on an average day (during this mild winter) it took almost one hour to raise the house temp one degree.

 

[Clarkbug]

Mike,

What direction does your primary loop flow? Clockwise or counter clockwise?

And if you have a closed system, the height differential shouldnt be a problem

You could pipe the tank into your loop using the future connections, and treat it like a load/source of heat. (If you check out the simplest pressurized sticky, I think thats how its done). So you can run the pump when you need to charge it, and run it when you need to discharge it and the Wood Gun isnt running. Controls might be a little bit trickier, but there has got to be a way to do it.

 

[infinitymike]

Mike,

What direction does your primary loop flow? Clockwise or counter clockwise?

And if you have a closed system, the height differential shouldnt be a problem

You could pipe the tank into your loop using the future connections, and treat it like a load/source of heat. (If you check out the simplest pressurized sticky, I think thats how its done). So you can run the pump when you need to charge it, and run it when you need to discharge it and the Wood Gun isnt running. Controls might be a little bit trickier, but there has got to be a way to do it.

Loop runs counterclockwise.

Right now the pump on the loop and the zone pumps turns on at the same time the pump on the wood or oil turns on and shut off at the same time as well.

 

[maple1]

Believe me, I'm not far ahead on the piping stuff at all. And I agree it does seem that oil side would short circuit but that is the same on the wood side. I just realized I colored it wrong. The RETURN of the wood gun is ABOVE the SUPPLY. Some one has told me that all of that loop could have been done differently and it would work more efficiently. I noticed on an average day (during this mild winter) it took almost one hour to raise the house temp one degree.

Now I'm even more confused. Seems to me if your wood gun return is above the supply, that would short circuit too, with the loop running ccw. It might explain it taking so long for the house to heat though. Do you get a lot of idling?

 

[huffdawg]

I think he has just drawn it up wrong. The oil burner is right the woodgun he needs to swap the supply and return lines on the primary loop closely spaced tee's if the flow of the primary loop is CCW.
While your at it you might want to install 1-1/4" boiler loop piping and the piping on storage loop too.

Huff

 

[jebatty]

One more guy confused. Looking at the first diagram, with CCW flow, the WG is correct and the OB lines should be reversed: WG injects hot water into the loop, which is supplied to the zones, with cool return water back into the loop and to the WG. The OB, when operating, operates similarly.

With storage in the garage and next to the WG, I suggest plumbing the storage as a hydraulic separator and use the WG only to charge storage. The WG's only "load" would be storage. Storage would be the supply to the primary loop. Controls would be easy for the WG with this setup and independent of other controls.

I have a couple of concerns about flow balance, or maybe I'm just confused. The 007 primary loop should have very little head, and primary flow probably is in the 14-17 gpm range. I'm thinking that it will be important that WG flow be less than primary flow to prevent short circuiting, similarly with the OB. In the same way, I think it also will be important that total zone flow (all zones "on") be less than primary flow to prevent short circuiting a zone(s). A short circuited zone could result in slow heating of the house.

Also,1st floor is being supplied after 2nd floor, which results in cooler water to first floor. This could be a cause of insufficient heat to the house. A balancing valve on 2nd floor, or 1st floor priority, could be a solution if this is the cause.

I didn't see a mention of heat loss for the house or size of the WG. If the WG is idling and the house still isn't being heated, then there must be insufficient flow from the WG to the primary loop. If the WG does not idle, then the WG must be undersized to meet demand.

Always willing both to be confused and then to be clarified.

 

[ewdudley]

I think he has just drawn it up wrong. The oil burner is right the woodgun he needs to swap the supply and return lines on the primary loop closely spaced tee's if the flow of the primary loop is CCW.
While your at it you might want to install 1-1/4" boiler loop piping and the piping on storage loop too.

Unfortunately he only wishes it was drawn up wrong. This loop has been discussed already in another thread, and IIRC Mike himself came up with a good solution, namely bring the returns supplies down from the top of the loop down to the unused ports on the bottom, thus making something that actually resembles a primary/secondary arrangement. Then reverse the direction of the primary loop pump.

 

[maple1]

Aren't the returns already going to the bottom of the loop?

 

[ewdudley]

Aren't the returns already going to the bottom of the loop?

Yes they are indeed, sorry to add to any confusion.

Also if I remember right the supply from the WoodGun is actually below the return, the opposite of what is shown on the right side of the drawing.

 

[maple1]

Sorry to keep derailing the storage topic, but I can't seem to avoid sorting the loop things out in my head.

After re-reading the thread, this is what I would try re-arranging on that:

That is assuming CCW loop flow, and trying to keep the re-arranging as simple & non-destructive as possible. Just seems to me, unless I'm missing something, that very little heat is getting to your zones from either of your boilers the way things are plumbed now. Just my quick thoughts, there are likely more effective or efficient re-arrangments others might come up with.

 

[huffdawg]

One more guy confused. Looking at the first diagram, with CCW flow, the WG is correct and the OB lines should be reversed: WG injects hot water into the loop, which is supplied to the zones, with cool return water back into the loop and to the WG. The OB, when operating, operates similarly.

With storage in the garage and next to the WG, I suggest plumbing the storage as a hydraulic separator and use the WG only to charge storage. The WG's only "load" would be storage. Storage would be the supply to the primary loop. Controls would be easy for the WG with this setup and independent of other controls.

I have a couple of concerns about flow balance, or maybe I'm just confused. The 007 primary loop should have very little head, and primary flow probably is in the 14-17 gpm range. I'm thinking that it will be important that WG flow be less than primary flow to prevent short circuiting, similarly with the OB. In the same way, I think it also will be important that total zone flow (all zones "on") be less than primary flow to prevent short circuiting a zone(s). A short circuited zone could result in slow heating of the house.

Also,1st floor is being supplied after 2nd floor, which results in cooler water to first floor. This could be a cause of insufficient heat to the house. A balancing valve on 2nd floor, or 1st floor priority, could be a solution if this is the cause.

I didn't see a mention of heat loss for the house or size of the WG. If the WG is idling and the house still isn't being heated, then there must be insufficient flow from the WG to the primary loop. If the WG does not idle, then the WG must be undersized to meet demand.

Always willing both to be confused and then to be clarified.

I stand corrected Jim.. I typed it wrong? lol.

 

[infinitymike]

I am SORRY for all the confusion. The first drawing is WRONG the supply from the woogun (on the right ) comes in BELOW the RETURN. My installer said he put ALL the supplies before the returns to help eliminate air

The loop pumps counter clockwise.

As hot water is injected into the loop it will hit the closely spaced tee of the return .

Then what ever is left over will hit the supply to the zones(on the top).

Continue counter clockwise passing (hopefully) by the closely spaced tees of the oil burner

Then it combines with the cooler return water from the zones.

It finally hits the hot water being supplied from the wood gun where it starts all over again.

 

[infinitymike]

Sorry to keep derailing the storage topic, but I can't seem to avoid sorting the loop things out in my head.

After re-reading the thread, this is what I would try re-arranging on that:

That is assuming CCW loop flow, and trying to keep the re-arranging as simple & non-destructive as possible. Just seems to me, unless I'm missing something, that very little heat is getting to your zones from either of your boilers the way things are plumbed now. Just my quick thoughts, there are likely more effective or efficient re-arrangments others might come up with.

That looks a lot better.
Now both heat sources can inject hot water into the loop before the supplies of the zones.

 

[infinitymike]

Unfortunately he only wishes it was drawn up wrong. This loop has been discussed already in another thread, and IIRC Mike himself came up with a good solution, namely bring the returns supplies down from the top of the loop down to the unused ports on the bottom, thus making something that actually resembles a primary/secondary arrangement. Then reverse the direction of the primary loop pump.

After thinking about that a little, if the supply of zone 1 was up stream of the return of zone 1 (with closely spaced tees) and then right next to that was the supply of zone 2 with its return downstream with a closely spaced tee, wouldn't the cooler return water of zone 1 flow right into the supply of zone 2?

 

[infinitymike]

I have a couple of concerns about flow balance, or maybe I'm just confused. The 007 primary loop should have very little head, and primary flow probably is in the 14-17 gpm range. I'm thinking that it will be important that WG flow be less than primary flow to prevent short circuiting, similarly with the OB. In the same way, I think it also will be important that total zone flow (all zones "on") be less than primary flow to prevent short circuiting a zone(s). A short circuited zone could result in slow heating of the house.

I'm not sure about any of the gpm or head loss but I will say this... When a zone calls for heat the primary loop pump turns and the zone return pump turns and the wood gun supply pump turns all at the same time.

You should hear how loud it is. It resonates throughout the whole system.
I lay in bed and hear it humming.
It sounds the same as when my domestic water is being used for the irrigation sprinkler system.

How would the wood gun short circuit if its flow was greater then the primary?

 

[infinitymike]

Sorry to keep derailing the storage topic, but I can't seem to avoid sorting the loop things out in my head.

Don't be sorry. If I don't get the main plumbing correct the storage won't be of any good use either.

So lets figure out exactly what to do with the primary and then we can jump to the storage.

 

[jebatty]

Here is the way I believe the primary should be plumbed (ignore the loop arrow on the WB for the moment).If the S-R lines for either boiler are reversed, then because of the primary flow direction the S from the boiler will short circuit back to the R to the boiler.

My comment on the WG short circuit if its flow is greater than the primary flow (now focus on the loop arrow) is based simply on WG supply gpm = WG return gpm. If primary flow is 5 and WG flow is 10, the flow pattern on the WG between supply and return will follow the path of least resistance. I don't have a clear-cut answer, but it seems to me that there is a possibility that some of the WG 10 supply flow will take the primary route and some may short circuit back to the WG 10 return flow. Others more knowledgeable may debunk this possibility.

 

[heaterman]

Hey guys, I need some help.

I want to hook up storage. Thinking about 1000 gallons. Only because it seems that is what most of you guys have.
I haven't done a heat loss calc so maybe that the first place to start to determine the size but lets say I go with a 1000.

I was thinking of getting one horizontal tank. Because I cant get it in the basement and my boiler is in the garage/boiler room, I figured it would be best to put it there.
originally I thought I would do two vertical 500 tanks but I am limited on space, so I thought I would dig a pit, much like a mechanics pit, in the center of the garage bay. I would form out the walls with concrete and then finish the top with removable steel grating.

I had a someone install my system and all though I do heat my house, you guys have said that it probably could have been a done little better.

Basically I have the Wood Gun in the garage/boiler room on the right side of the house.
I have 1" pex running for 63' with 4 elbows.
It then attaches to a loop of 1.25" copper hanging on the basement wall.
That loop is about 4' long by 2' high it has a 007 that pushes the water counterclockwise and then I have 2 zones which each have a 007 pulling the zone water back to the loop.
The Wood Gun has a 00R ifc 3 speed set on high pushing the supply water to the loop

My questions are (and I don't really even know what questions to ask):

1. My boiler would obviously be higher then the tank. Does that pose a problem?

2. How do I pipe it?

3. What else do I ask

 

[heaterman]

Mike, it looks like you're trying to do a primary loop there. If that's the case, the tees for each load or input should be no more than 4 pipe diameters apart. with the supply going out to the zone "upstream" of the return. The supply for each zone would be situated "closest" to the pump in terms of flow, not physical distance. Note that each zone will get progressively lower temperature.
When it comes to input entering the primary loop from any heat source, you want the "return" first so it pulls water off the loop, takes it to the boiler, and dumps it back onto the btu train after being reheated. Storage would be piped the same way.

As far as elevation is concerned, it's not a concern. The static/fill pressure will take care of any issues there. I would strongly recommend a low water cut off in any instance where the boiler is located above the loads or storage.

 

[maple1]

I'm not sure about any of the gpm or head loss but I will say this... When a zone calls for heat the primary loop pump turns and the zone return pump turns and the wood gun supply pump turns all at the same time.

You should hear how loud it is. It resonates throughout the whole system.
I lay in bed and hear it humming.
It sounds the same as when my domestic water is being used for the irrigation sprinkler system.

How would the wood gun short circuit if its flow was greater then the primary?

Another thought, since you mentioned all the noise. Looking at the picture I marked up - if you were to put a flow check in the loop between the Wood Gun supply & return T's (that would block CW loop flow), could you do away with the loop circulator?

EDIT: Hey, look at that - I'm a Combustion Analyzer. Does that mean I can quit my day job now?

 

[woodsmaster]

EDIT: Hey, look at that - I'm a Combustion Analyzer. Does that mean I can quit my day job now?

Yes, you should be getting the check anyday now.

 

[maple1]

Yes, you should be getting the check anyday now.

Awesome, I think I'll go set up camp right beside the mailbox - don't want to miss it.

On topic, I don't think my last suggestion of the flow check & doing away with the loop circ would work - unless there was another one doing the same thing (preventing CW flow) on the other side of the loop maybe where the current oil comes in.

 

[Clarkbug]

I'm not sure about any of the gpm or head loss but I will say this... When a zone calls for heat the primary loop pump turns and the zone return pump turns and the wood gun supply pump turns all at the same time.

You should hear how loud it is. It resonates throughout the whole system.
I lay in bed and hear it humming.
It sounds the same as when my domestic water is being used for the irrigation sprinkler system.

How would the wood gun short circuit if its flow was greater then the primary?

Mike,

If you have that howling, thats usually not a good thing. You have others here who know waaaaay more than I do on this (Ill be posting my own "help me!" thread before too long), but the 007 seems like a lot of pump for that short run. There should be very little head loss just to move around that little loop.