Stoves under 1.0 g emissions

[Highbeam]

Yes, my area requires stoves to be "epa certified" in order to burn them on "no burn days" (which are about 50% of days in winter including all of the previous week). So if I buy a new stove now I will be able to use it until 2020 when the regulations change and it will be no longer "epa certified" hence I will not be able to burn it on "no burn days" I am wondering if that means I should just comply with the future regs now. ( I guess that means buying the ideal steel stove).
Or just buying one that is now epa certified and in 5-8 years figure out what to do.

The stove you buy today that is EPA certified will always be EPA certified. Just because they tighten up those emission limits for future certifications does not mean that previously certified stoves will lose their certification. There would have to be a specific new type of certification for this newest cycle of emissions numbers. Perhaps called phase 2 certified. Your clean air idiots will have to decide whether they want to ban burning for phase 2 stoves at the same time as current EPA stoves. My clean air idiots currently lump all solid fuel burners into the pre-EPA stoves and the EPA certified stoves.

I suspect that the new stoves meeting a new and tighter requirement will have some recognition of that accomplishment on their permanent label. I even suspect that new stoves will have to meet that higher level in order to be certified as the previous threshold will no longer get you "certified". I do not expect that the clena air idiots will begin banning burning for certified stoves that did not meet this newest limit. It is possible of course but the infrastructure and laws are written to recognize certified stoves and I expect that will continue.

Just like car emission regulations. They are ever tightening. Running old cars is still legal.

 

[begreen]

Most all of us here have benefited from EPA phase II stove regs. It's quite possible that the new stoves will produce some real winners that heat better and use less fuel. The proposed Phase 3 regs will most likely be staged. Not every state will adopt them right away. This change is not going to happen overnight.

 

[Hoozie]

Yes, my area requires stoves to be "epa certified" in order to burn them on "no burn days"

Something similar in my area too. Green days anyone can burn. Yellow only certified stoves can. Red days, no one can burn, unless you're under 2.5g/hr, in which case you can get an exemption.

And this year has Health Alert days where absolutely no one can burn :-|

 

[begreen]

There have been days here when no one can burn also, and with good reason. Some of those smoggy days are something else. You can smell the sickly fug in the air. It even shows up on Mt. Rainier, some 75 miles south of Seattle.

low pollution day

bad air day

Sometimes the stuff we spew out has no where to go. An atmospheric inversion traps it between our mountain ranges. It's like your septic system backing up into the bathtub and sinks. When that happens you stop using the toilets no matter how inconvenient.

This was last January. Meh.

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2020139333_dryweatherxml.html

 

[Highbeam]

Not every state will adopt them right away.

I thought this was an EPA thing. Isn't that a federal agency?

 

[begreen]

It is, but my understanding is that states can choose not to enforce it. Without a state SIP the law has no enforcement. I'm not sure about the details so don't quote me. I'm going on past performance. My guess is that the Fed can control sale across state lines?? (maybe not) and the EPA controls (owns) the testing results database. But clean air enforcement occurs at the state level. AFAIK, even today, only a handful of states currently ban the sale of uncertified stoves. My guess is that there will still be some EPA phase 2 for sale even after the phase 3 regs are enacted.

 

[BKVP]

It is, but my understanding is that states can choose not to enforce it. Without a state SIP the law has no enforcement. I'm not sure about the details so don't quote me. I'm going on past performance. My guess is that the Fed can control sale across state lines?? (maybe not) and the EPA controls (owns) the testing results database. But clean air enforcement occurs at the state level. AFAIK, even today, only a handful of states currently ban the sale of uncertified stoves. My guess is that there will still be some EPA phase 2 for sale even after the phase 3 regs are enacted.

No state may employ any standards that are less restrictive than those set by the Feds (EPA). However, any state may set stricter standards so long as they can prove the benefit. Of course, they may be challenged by any party and legal proceedings may ensue.

 

[begreen]

But states have the option of allowing older stoves to still be sold and installed or not. right? That seems to be the question currently.

 

[BKVP]

Yes, that is true. However, if the EPA were to say pre EPA stoves were to be made no longer unusable, then the states would have to uphold that position.

However, I have first hand knowledge that will not happen! In my dealings with EPA, they are clear that is a topic they do not wish to address as it would create significant issues.

But states have the option of allowing older stoves to still be sold and installed or not. right? That seems to be the question currently.

 

[Tenn Dave]

On the bright side, my parents live near the Woodstock factory and I am going to check it out over Christmas.

you won't be disappointed.

 

[begreen]

Yes, that is true. However, if the EPA were to say pre EPA stoves were to be made no longer unusable, then the states would have to uphold that position.

However, I have first hand knowledge that will not happen! In my dealings with EPA, they are clear that is a topic they do not wish to address as it would create significant issues.

Your inside insight and opinions on this developing topic are always appreciated Chris. Personally I do not in the least feel threatened by it. If new stoves come out that are more efficient heaters and cleaner burners I am interested. But I hope the regs are reasonable and achievable for ordinary mortals and stove companies without negatively impacting their product.

 

[BKVP]

Your inside insight and opinions on this developing topic are always appreciated Chris. Personally I do not in the least feel threatened by it. If new stoves come out that are more efficient heaters and cleaner burners I am interested. But I hope the regs are reasonable and achievable for ordinary mortals and stove companies without negatively impacting their product.

Thank you. When the initial NSPS was promulgated in 1988, pre EPA stoves were grandfathered. The logic or thinking was few if any low price, clean burning stoves were available to low income families, so they allowed them to continue in situ.

During this NSPS, the same questions and concerns were discussed. As part of those discussions, which I was party to, the thinking was there are now thousands of phase 1 and phase 2 used clean burning stoves available on line, at retail showrooms and newspapers world-wide. Even though this was acknowledged, EPA did not wish to tackle such a monumental undertaking.

However, it should be noted there are actually a rule or two in the current NSPS that are much ignored. The definition of an affected facility and new source are both very clear. An affected facility is an all-encompassing term, in our case, a wood stove. A new source is any affected facility that is either new or requires more than 50% of the original cost to maintain.

So, if you paid $800 in 1977 for your wood stove and you need a new door, or other essential elements that cost more than $400 to purchase, technically the affected facility is now deemed a new source and MUST meet the new source standards.

Personally, I think the pre EPA stoves are here for the future unless the Federal agencies unite to get a nation-wide stove change out underway.

 

[velvetfoot]

Will the clean technology take away from the maximum firebox an insert can have, or the ability to load n/s?

 

[mellow]

Will the clean technology take away from the maximum firebox an insert can have, or the ability to load n/s?

My take on that is, just like the new water heaters that are bigger due to increased insulation, inserts are going to have to get bigger (taller?) to hold the cat and the secondary burn tubes, I wouldn't doubt if they somehow insulated the insert itself to make it more efficient. We will need a bigger fireplace to put the insert in if we want to keep our 12 hour burn times.

 

[trucha]

Thanks for the pics BeGreen. Those of us who live in the mountains know about winter inversions which can trap bad air in valleys even in small towns that don't have much pollution otherwise. It is not all due to wood smoke but it probably helps especially people who still have the old pre-1990 stoves.

It looks like the rules will be posted Feb 1st. They will probably go down to the 1.3 level but this will be a phase in over 5-8 years so there will time for stove companies to comply and there may even be an intermediary number of 2.5. This will not affect stoves that are already installed only newly manufactured stoves.

 

[trucha]

My question is: Should I try to get a stove that is compliant with the new regs just to be "ahead of the game" (which would probably mean the ideal steel).
Or should I just get one before the regs come out and in 5-10 years plan on replacing it with something newer. I agree with begreen, the technology, once caught up, will probably yield some really cool stoves.

 

[begreen]

You should get the stove you want and your wife likes and not worry about it. If you take care of the stove it will still have value later on. In spite of claims that there is no inflation I have seen stove prices go up a fair amount with each stove I have owned. They went up so much with our Jotul F400 that I sold it for more than I bought it for.

 

[trucha]

Nice, The regulations around here say if you live over 7,000' you can burn on "no burn days" I am at 6,000'. So there are plenty of folks that could use it if I want to "upgrade". I feel like the technology will explode in the next 5-10 years and I don't want to suffer stove envy too soon.

 

[begreen]

Be sure to have a little extra height in the chimney to compensate for that mile+ high location.

fwiw, I hope the new technology doesn't explode!

 

[Tenn Dave]

Jquote="trucha, post: 1836706, member: 9788"]Nice, The regulations around here say if you live over 7,000' you can burn on "no burn days" I am at 6,000'. So there are plenty of folks that could use it if I want to "upgrade". I feel like the technology will explode in the next 5-10 years and I don't want to suffer stove envy too soon.[/quote]
Technology is changing everyday for just about everything. If you postpone purchases for fear of 'future envy', you will never own anything ! Just buy what you want today and enjoy........

 

[begreen]

And don't hang around here. You'll be buying a new stove every 3 years.

 

[draughtdude]

BeGreen,

The new Twinfire has dual cats. I saw it in action at Brookhaven.

Also, all of you that have not read the 354 pages, you must look closer. Currently all standards are predicated upon a weighted average of 4 burns, each defined by kg/hr burn rates.

The 2015-2020 proposed 4.5 gr/hr is still based upon 4.5 gr/hr using crib fuel and method 28.

The 2020 and on is quite different. The 1.3 IS NOT ACHIEVABLE by many stoves, if any at all, because it is 1.3 gr/hr on the worst burn. IT IS NOT WEIGHTED AVERAGE!

For example, a catalytic stove that has a weighted Average of 1.3 gr/hr may score as follows:

Low: .66 gr/hr, Medium Low: .89 gr/hr, Medium High 1.09 and High 2.01

The stove above FAILS THE PROPOSED "No burn to exceed 1.3 gr/hr" and cannot be sold.

This is interesting information. I was under the impression the new epa regulations beginning next year would force manufacturers to start producing progressively cleaner burning stoves until 2019, a year in which the 1.3 gr/hr emission regulation will be in full effect. This was the year I interpreted as "sorry sir you can't buy a super 27 anymore".

If their testing methodology will be anything like you describe, then we're going to have wood stoves that are similar to modern 2008-up north american diesels with fancy and expensive particulate filters, urea fluid, etc and dramatically increased purchasing costs, running costs, and greatly diminished long term reliability.

I can't help but see this as a move to make wood burning illegal. Time for me to move even further into the bush.

 

[BKVP]

My take on that is, just like the new water heaters that are bigger due to increased insulation, inserts are going to have to get bigger (taller?) to hold the cat and the secondary burn tubes, I wouldn't doubt if they somehow insulated the insert itself to make it more efficient. We will need a bigger fireplace to put the insert in if we want to keep our 12 hour burn times.

Actually, power vented wood stoves are not far off! Increased efficiency beyond what we provide will mandate an assist of some sort. You can only rob so much heat from the stack without paying the price. (In terms of draft)

 

[trucha]

I'll never plug in my stove.

 

[begreen]

I believe the Mulciber is self-power vented, and it powered it's convection fan with TEGs. At .2gms/hr it is a very, very clean burner.

http://mffire.com/mulciber.html