Strange Harman Invincible Insert behavior on Honda EU3000i backup due to Feb 24 snowstorm power outa

[sandpipe]

First post! Been reading up and educating myself regarding pellet stoves on this great site.

Here's my question--

I have been using an old Harman Invincible Insert that came with my recently bought house. It normally works great. Now we have a power outage-- 13 hours and counting. I hooked up the Harman pellet stove to my EU3000i Honda Inverter/Generator and the stove is not running the same way as when plugged into the house current.

I always run it in stove temp mode with fan on high and it normally blows air into the run constantly. Now the distribution fan turns on and off intermittently. This keeps the house cooler than normal. I also have to keep the temp dial set at 6 instead of 4 to get the same sized flame. The flame is not as energetic as it normally is under regular power.

I checked the voltage and it is a rock steady 120v. I don't know the actual amperage output but running the stove by itself or with my fridge on, light on, and all computer eqpt on makes no difference. Seems like plenty of amperage available. The generator output is rated at around 23amps.

This is the first time I have had this generator hooked up. I'm happy the house is warm and I have necessary electric but am perplexed by the different operation of the stove. My only theory is that when the power went off and on several times this morning before the outage it scrambled the brains of the circuit board on the stove and now it permanently thinks it is in room temp mode (with varying motor speeds) and not in stove temp mode.

Any ideas/suggestions are welcome. Thanks!

Paul in Western Mass.

 

[woodsman23]

That is because it is not a pure sine wave inverter generator. google up sine wave and see the difference, its a cleaner wave like the power company uses..

 

[OldScrap]

I'll second that. The problem here is that you are using a Honda generator. Hondas actually do some pretty sophisticated stuff in order to increase their efficiency and reduce noise. One of these is that they spin the alternator at a higher RPM (thereby requiring a smaller engine). Another is that the alternator is three-phase, unlike most generators that use a single or two-phase alternator. Since whatever you're plugging into the Honda wants to see 120 or 240V at 60Hz, and what comes out of the Honda's alternator is some wacky three-phase delta output at some higher frequency, the engineers at Honda use a rectifier (as does a car alternator) to convert the output to DC. The DC is then filtered, and converted to 60Hz AC using an inverter (much like the ones you buy so you can plug your coffee maker into your car's 12VDC electrical system). Unfortunately, the output of the Honda inverter isn't a pure sine, so the induction motors (and there are three of them) inside the pellet stove get all annoyed.

Go to Pep Boys and buy a small, cheap Chinese generator and use that to run your stove. It'll be a lot louder than the Honda, but it will produce a waveform the motors will like more.

 

[sandpipe]

Do you think they are giving erroneous info at hayesequipment.com? I don't see any mention of sine wave in the Honda EU3000i owner's manual.

From http://www.hayesequipment.com/honda/generators/honda_inverter_generators.htm :
"The EU3000is maintains the impressive rating of 48 to58dB (less than that of common speech even at rated load), and it will run for up to 20 hours on a single tank of gas when used with the Eco-Throttle feature. This impressive generator provides 3000 watts of power and weighs only 134lbs. The Honda Inverter Technology makes this generator ideally suited for use with sensitive electronics (e.g., computer, fax, printer, telephone, stereo) because the generator produces a clean sine wave of energy that results in no surging."

Very strange that a cheap Chinese generator should give better performance than a high-end Honda. I never heard of this problem before but I may not have googled the right search criteria.

I guess there should be quite a few disgruntled Honda EU* generator owners around. I'd be interested in any comments from such owners as regards to their stove operation.

Can I damage my stove by using the Honda? Everything else seems to be working fine such as my computer and fridge.

Thanks for the info.

I'll second that. The problem here is that you are using a Honda generator. Hondas actually do some pretty sophisticated stuff in order to increase their efficiency and reduce noise. One of these is that they spin the alternator at a higher RPM (thereby requiring a smaller engine). Another is that the alternator is three-phase, unlike most generators that use a single or two-phase alternator. Since whatever you're plugging into the Honda wants to see 120 or 240V at 60Hz, and what comes out of the Honda's alternator is some wacky three-phase delta output at some higher frequency, the engineers at Honda use a rectifier (as does a car alternator) to convert the output to DC. The DC is then filtered, and converted to 60Hz AC using an inverter (much like the ones you buy so you can plug your coffee maker into your car's 12VDC electrical system). Unfortunately, the output of the Honda inverter isn't a pure sine, so the induction motors (and there are three of them) inside the pellet stove get all annoyed.

Go to Pep Boys and buy a small, cheap Chinese generator and use that to run your stove. It'll be a lot louder than the Honda, but it will produce a waveform the motors will like more.

 

[DBCOOPER]

Note in e) below things that do not work well with a modified sine wave inverter



http://www.donrowe.com/inverters/inverter_faq.html#modified



Advantages of Pure Sine Wave inverters over modified sine wave inverters:

a) Output voltage wave form is pure sine wave with very low harmonic distortion and clean power like utility-supplied electricity.

b) Inductive loads like microwave ovens and motors run faster, quieter and cooler.

c) Reduces audible and electrical noise in fans, fluorescent lights, audio amplifiers, TV, Game consoles, Fax, and answering machines.

d) Prevents crashes in computers, weird print out, and glitches and noise in monitors.

e) Reliably powers the following devices that will normally not work with modified sine wave inverters:

Laser printers, photocopiers, magneto-optical hard drives
Certain laptop computers (you should check with your manufacturer)
Some fluorescent lights with electronic ballasts
Power tools employing "solid state" power or variable speed control
Some battery chargers for cordless tools
Some new furnaces and pellet stoves with microprocessor control
Digital clocks with radios
Sewing machines with speed/microprocessor control
X-10 home automation system
Medical equipment such as oxygen concentrators

 

[DAKSY]

Damn Asian voltage!
Might hafta switch to 93 octane rice...

 

[Sawduster]

I'm glad I saw your post as I was just about to pull the trigger on one of those small Honda gernerators. I too thought they were the best you could buy and would be the ideal ticket to power my Harmon in a power outage. I know I have seen other posts on here from people who have purchased the Hondas mainly to power their stoves in an outage, because they thought they were the best.

 

[Delta-T]

any chance the stove just needs a cleaning? dirty ESP can cause dist fan to turn off and on. Dirty air passages/comb blower can result in lazy flame. just a thought. I have used the EU1000 and EU2000 on pellet stoves with no ill effects.

 

[ironpony]

just curious,
would a good ups or surge protector
clean up the signal
if the electronics are that sensitive
why dont the manufacturer recommend using one

 

[sandpipe]

any chance the stove just needs a cleaning? dirty ESP can cause dist fan to turn off and on. Dirty air passages/comb blower can result in lazy flame. just a thought. I have used the EU1000 and EU2000 on pellet stoves with no ill effects.

Finally some hope! The stove was cleaned but I don't think the ESP sensor was. Maybe cleaning that up will help but still, why would the distribution motor go on and off when in stove temp mode because of a dirty ESP sensor?

just curious,
would a good ups or surge protector
clean up the signal
if the electronics are that sensitive
why dont the manufacturer recommend using one

I was hoping that there might be some workaround like you suggest. I like the quality, dependability, and 20 hours between fillups of the Honda EU but not having the Harman perform maximally is a big letdown. Luckily it was in the mid 30's during this power outage. If it were in the teens or single digits I can't see the stove doing a very good job without a strong flame and the distribution motor working non-stop.

 

[Delta-T]

the ESP must see a temp of at least 165 in order to tell the blower to turn on. If the probe is surrounded by ash that temp may not be registering as the stove changes burn rates and such.

 

[sandpipe]

the ESP must see a temp of at least 165 in order to tell the blower to turn on. If the probe is surrounded by ash that temp may not be registering as the stove changes burn rates and such.

But wouldn't that problem with a dirty ESP occur with house current as well? My stove's erratic behavior only occurs when on Honda backup power.

 

[exoilburner]

My stove's erratic behavior only occurs when on Honda backup power.

Did you check the electrical wiring and connections to the Honda inverter? Did you measure the 120v at the stove or at the inverter when it is under load by the stove? Does your computer operate normally when powered by the inverter?

 

[sandpipe]

My stove's erratic behavior only occurs when on Honda backup power.

Did you check the electrical wiring and connections to the Honda inverter? Did you measure the 120v at the stove or at the inverter when it is under load by the stove? Does your computer operate normally when powered by the inverter?

Hi; I measured the voltage at the stove-- at the end of a 50' 10/3 SJTW 3Way Lited Generator Ext Cord L5-30 Plug. My refrigerator and all computer systems (laptop, dsl router, linksys wireless router) worked perfectly. The voltage remained 125v with no wavering at all even when refrigerator motor kicked on.

 

[lmjr]

The above suggestion to plug UPS into generator and then stove into UPS would have a conditioning effect to the output.

 

[Snowy Rivers]

I have seen odd behavior of our Quad while running on the generator too.

We have a Coleman 1700 portable and the room air fan surges a little but the thing heats OK

What you are experiencing is due to voltage variations and frequency anomalies due to the equipment.

Likley not producing a true 120V 60hrtz power.

Slight voltage variations with engine RPM variations can also cause anomalies too.

The voltage or the frequency can vary slightly due to engine RPM's not being absolutely stable.


Generally this stuff wont hurt tools and such but depending on how far out of whack the supply is, it can cause electronic controls to get a tad fussy.

My quad seems to be OK with it other than slight pulsing noises from the room fan.

Hard to beat real shore power unless you have a serious Gen set that was designed to handle sensitive electronic equipment.

I used our Coleman last summer after a large T storm caused an outage of 3 days. Ran the fridge for a few hours.

It too was a little strange but kept the food cold.


Snowy

 

[exoilburner]

Honda's specification for the EU3000i states the following:

Honda Inverter Technology
Honda's inverter technology means stable, clean power in a smaller, lighter package. By taking the raw power produced by the generator and passing it through a special microprocessor, Honda generators are able to produce a sine wave equal to or better than your household power. This means you can even operate the most sensitive electronics without fear of interruption.

I wouldn't put much value on a statement from most companies. But Honda seems to have quality products, is innovative and their stuff usually works as advertised. Plus they could get sued for false claims in their specification.

I have an EM7000is and have been pleasantly surprised by the quality of it. If the EU3000i truly does produce power "equal to or better than" utility power (the normal operation of your PC, DSL & wireless routers with the refrigerator confirms that) it pretty much eliminates everything but the stove. From the other posts it appears that pellet stoves are just sensitive to power changes. Not that ether power source is bad but the stove operation will be different between them. Looks like you have started compensating for the difference and maybe that is the answer.

 

[tinkabranc]

Just out of curiosity...have you tried to run the stove on the generator alone by itself?

Is the behavior still the same?

 

[sandpipe]

Just out of curiosity...have you tried to run the stove on the generator alone by itself?

Is the behavior still the same?

Exactly the same-- i needed to turn all settings to maximum just to get less than my normal medium setting's output. Since the Honda's voltage is rock solid I thought I might not have been outputting enough amperage. But of course the fridge and electronics worked perfectly as well as a light and the computer electronics. Just the stove worked poorly.

Oldscrap made some interesting points in the third post of this thread describing the way the Honda goes about creating its AC output and that it was not the type of sine wave that some finicky motors like. I wonder if there is ups or line stablizer I could try between the generator and the stove that might solve this problem (and not cost hundreds of dollars)? Also, if anyone with old Harman Invincible type pellet stoves and a Honda generator could let us know how there setup runs that might be helpful.

 

[jtakeman]

For finicky electronics we have used Line conditioners. Smooth's the sine wave nicely.

http://www.geindustrial.com/solutions/engineers/docs/DET-267.pdf

Extremely pricey!

 

[exoilburner]

Can anyone explain what is a pure sine wave inverter and what is not a pure sine wave inverter. The gold standard I suppose would be utility power. I have seen pretty dirty utility power on a o'scope; especially in a manufacturing environment.

sandpipe maybe you should have your generator load checked for good 60Hz frequency and sine wave shape.

Below is a wave form of a Honda EU generator loaded at 78% of its capacity with an inductive load. A tough, realistic scenario.
The horizontal lines are 100v increments. At .707 x peak voltage it is putting out a little over 212vac.
Looks like a pure sine wave to me with a some distortion at the peaks.

Is a pellet burner so finicky that it can not deal with this distortion? How perfect does it need to be? I don't know, just asking.

 

[lmjr]

Besides the utility's clean sine waveform, they have very good ground paths.

Perhaps, this one particular Honda Generator, with it's stated sine waveform, is lacking the necessary good ground path.

Other thoughts, Are all cords polarized?...Is the outlet @ generator properly polarized? (Did Honda inadvertently hookup internally the Hot and Neutral reversed?)

Is the generator frame bonded to the generator neutral?...or is it isolated?

You could make these simple test w/ a DMM. The wider blade of either the male or female end is the Neutral (Return) and the smaller it the Hot 120vac.

 

[sandpipe]

Besides the utility's clean sine waveform, they have very good ground paths.

Perhaps, this one particular Honda Generator, with it's stated sine waveform, is lacking the necessary good ground path.

Other thoughts, Are all cords polarized?...Is the outlet @ generator properly polarized? (Did Honda inadvertently hookup internally the Hot and Neutral reversed?)

Is the generator frame bonded to the generator neutral?...or is it isolated?

You could make these simple test w/ a DMM. The wider blade of either the male or female end is the Neutral (Return) and the smaller it the Hot 120vac.

Good suggestion. I have a polarity tester which I will plug in to verify. To check the frame and generator neutral I would just need to test for continuity between ground on the plug and some bare metal on the frame? Will try that too.

The other thing I need to do is check the ESP probe and clean it just to eliminate that as a possible cause.

Thanks for all the suggestions!

 

[sandpipe]

UPDATE:

I got the pellet stove to work perfectly by using a standard heavy duty extension cord from the Honda 20A outlet direct to the stove. Previously I was using a 10/3 Milspec 30A 3-prong 50' extension cord. Although that ran my fridge, computer and lights fine, the pellet stove motors ran poorly, even when nothing else was on the extension cord but the stove.

So, the problem is not the stove and not the sine wave output of the Honda eu3000 as some suggested. It seems to me that it is either with the 50' cord or the 30A output plug of the generator.

Is there some way to test the 30A output plug of the Honda as well as test the 50' cable?

Besides the utility's clean sine waveform, they have very good ground paths.

Perhaps, this one particular Honda Generator, with it's stated sine waveform, is lacking the necessary good ground path.

Other thoughts, Are all cords polarized?...Is the outlet @ generator properly polarized? (Did Honda inadvertently hookup internally the Hot and Neutral reversed?)

Is the generator frame bonded to the generator neutral?...or is it isolated?

You could make these simple test w/ a DMM. The wider blade of either the male or female end is the Neutral (Return) and the smaller it the Hot 120vac.

Good suggestion. I have a polarity tester which I will plug in to verify. To check the frame and generator neutral I would just need to test for continuity between ground on the plug and some bare metal on the frame? Will try that too.

The other thing I need to do is check the ESP probe and clean it just to eliminate that as a possible cause.

Thanks for all the suggestions!

 

[exoilburner]

Can you borrow (or buy and return) another 30 Amp 3 prong extension cord to try. That would narrow it down to the generator or the cord.