Suggestions for a Full Port 1" On/Off electric ball valve

[peakbagger]

Hi, my storage installation last year worked well for half of last winter but one ongoing issue was that I bought a two - 1" taco electronic ball valves which have a 1/2" ball valve guts with 1" connections. I can live with it on one of the services, but the backpressure on the other one is causing some significant "ghost flows" on my circulators. Not a major issue in the winter but its impacting my ability to run storage on low heating demand days.

I liked the concept of the EBZ valves as they draw little power when running but its time to get one with a full size port. Does anyone have any suggestions on a 1" full port electrically actuated valve that has the capability to fail open when the power is turned off?

 

[Bob Rohr]

Hi, my storage installation last year worked well for half of last winter but one ongoing issue was that I bought a two - 1" taco electronic ball valves which have a 1/2" ball valve guts with 1" connections. I can live with it on one of the services, but the backpressure on the other one is causing some significant "ghost flows" on my circulators. Not a major issue in the winter but its impacting my ability to run storage on low heating demand days.

I liked the concept of the EBZ valves as they draw little power when running but its time to get one with a full size port. Does anyone have any suggestions on a 1" full port electrically actuated valve that has the capability to fail open when the power is turned off?

Sounds like you want a spring return valve? Most full port ball valve with electric operators require power to open and power to close, just like a manual ball valve, where you are the motor.

Generally most flapper type, spring close, zone valves will have a Cv of 7-8. This type of valve will flow 12 gpm without any problem, just a bit more pressure drop. The question is how much flow are you wanting to move thru it?

hr

 

[BoilerMan]

Don't some have a capacitor to act like a battery when they go into the fail open mode?

TS

 

[Bob Rohr]

Don't some have a capacitor to act like a battery when they go into the fail open mode?

TS

That is sometimes refered to as an electronic valve. There have been some reliability issues with some brands.

Try someone like Bellimo, select the valve body you need based on the flow rate (cv) then select from an array of actuators. Sounds like a high flow, two way valve with a 24 or 120v ac spring return actuator, is what you are after, maybe in a NO normally open version. When it is powered it is closed, loss of power opens the valve and allows flow. But NO valves consume power all of the time. I believe Belliumo also offer electronic actuators.

www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=bellimo+ball+valves&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


You can buy off the shelf NO zone valves, probably less $$ than a custom built assembly, really depends on how much flow you want to move.

When you see a small orfice in a valve typically it is designed to shut off against high pressure, like a ball valve can. Spring return flapper type usually have a max. shut off of 75 psi, that should be plenty for most hydronic applications. Smaller orfice= higher shutoff, but lower Cv.

 

[maple1]

One of the last things I have to get here is a 1" NO zone valve for my new dump zone (two 3/4" second floor raidation zones). My supplier didn't carry, has to order. Found out yesterday after ordering a week ago they're having problems finding one with full port. I thought this would be an easy source but it's turning out not to be. How much flow would I lose if I had to get one that wasn't a full port valve? They carry Honeywells but not sure what else they're looking at/for. This valve won't be my only dump circuit, the boiler can also dump on power outage through the loading unit to storage and my current 3/4 dump valve to first floor radiation.

 

[BHetrick10]

I just bought Taco zone sentry valves. I was hoping for full port as well, after looking at it I figured it cant hurt the system to much because its shaped like a nozzle inside and I believe will create a venturi effect going through it. So if I am correct it will add some head to the system but should not hurt the GPM.

Sound right?

 

[Bad Wolf]

I was looking at this http://www.pexsupply.com/Taco-V100C2A2ZB024Q4A1-1-Motorized-EBV-Zone-Valve-Sweat-Normally-Open is that the one you got?

I wanted a valve that I can put in my storage loop that will close when the house is calling for heat and the boiler is on. Right now its drawing water through the storage loop (unpressurized storage) and diluting the high temp boiler water.

Sounds like you are doing the same thing. I was confused on the wiring since it was made to work with the boiler and all I wanted was to open and close when I told it.

 

[Bob Rohr]

I just bought Taco zone sentry valves. I was hoping for full port as well, after looking at it I figured it cant hurt the system to much because its shaped like a nozzle inside and I believe will create a venturi effect going through it. So if I am correct it will add some head to the system but should not hurt the GPM.

Sound right?

The Cv number tells you how much flow the valve will pass. The Cv number is the GPM flow rate with a 1 psi pressure drop. If you flow more gpm thru a valve the pressure drop increases. Too much flow causes noise and un-do wear on the body.

Here is the spec from the Taco pdf. I'm not sure why the 3/4 has a higher Cv than the 1", good question for Taco.

hr

 

[peakbagger]

The link in Post 7 is what I bought and unless they have changed in the last year, they are a 1/2" ball valve with oversized 1" connections. The concept is great but I had some issues with the valve and ended up that they had to replace one of the actuators. They have an undersized/under strength drive shaft connecting the valve to the actuator and when the valve is initially cycled, there is too much torque to break it loose from the postion it was shipped in. I figured out that if the actuator is removed and the valve stem is manually rotated a few times, that cuts down on the torque and then the unit works. Their recomendation is to use the manual feature on the valve to do this intital break in, but after breaking one actuator and taking a close look at what was going on, I switched to removing the actuator and turning the bronze shaft. They ahve worked fine since then. I do like the LED on the valve that gives indication that its actuated.

My system is complex. I have an oil boiler that acts as a backup to the woodboiler and a storage tank. The system is wired and setup so when I shut off the circuit breaker to the wood boiler, all the relays and valves "fail" in the correct position so that the oil furnace runs just like a normal oil furnace with 3 zone valves, bascially if I cant burn wood when I am on the road for work, I want a system that can be diagnosed by a run of the mill heating tech. If there is a call for heat and the storage system is energized and over a low setpoint, water is supposed to bypass the oil boiler and go out to the zones. This valve is part of the oil boiler bypass, it fails open. Unfortunately it is a restricted port size so instead of the water going where I want it, the water flows through the zones. Unless I add more complexity to an already complex system that is run on relay logic, I always will have some ghost flows but a lot less than I have now if I install a valve with less resistance.

I guess I have to pull out my Cv spreadsheet. I was spoiled in industry, acutated full port ball valves with spring returns were not hard to find.

 

[BHetrick10]

http://www.taco-hvac.com/en/product...Zone Valve/products.html?current_category=396

This is what I have.

says 10.3 Cv on 3/4 and 8.9 on the 1" The higher the Cv the better right? Ebay is the cheapest place to buy them that I have seen. Somewhere around 50. I paid 90.00 from the heating supply house I deal with.

Sorry, I realize this is not helping the OP out just figured while we were talking about valves that are not full port I would list some specs.

seems like a lot of the old school zone valves have low Cv's some were in the 3's?

What about running two of them in parallel?

 

[mikefrommaine]

White rodgers zone valves usually have a high cv rating

Here is a white Rodgers 1" NO zone valve. 37 cv! Sure you can find it cheaper than what graingers wants for it.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/WHITERODGERS-Hydronic-Zone-Valve-2E164

 

[maple1]

Down in the specs it says CV of 7.0?

 

[mikefrommaine]

Down in the specs it says CV of 7.0?

In the write up at top it says 37...


Pex supply lists the NC version at 37 cv as well.

http://www.pexsupply.com/White-Rodgers-1361-103-1-Sweat-Zone-Valve-Two-Wire-14292000-p

 

[BoilerMan]

Check out the Caleffi or Grundfos ZVs both are made by Caleffi and can be had in 7.5 Cv. On an upstaird gravity loop, you will have plenty of rise to get rid of the heat, you only need something like 3 gpm in baseboard anyway.

TS

 

[Bob Rohr]

In the write up at top it says 37...


Pex supply lists the NC version at 37 cv as well.

http://www.pexsupply.com/White-Rodgers-1361-103-1-Sweat-Zone-Valve-Two-Wire-14292000-p

That Cv number listed may be an error. Possibly they mean 37 GPM at a 15 psi pressure drop. I highly doubt a 1" valve would flow 37 gpm with a 1 psi drop.

Here is an Excel sheet to calculate. With a 37 gpm flow, 15 psi drop that would be a valve of arounrd 10Cv, That sounds more resonable

 

[mikefrommaine]

That Cv number listed may be an error. Possibly they mean 37 GPM at a 15 psi pressure drop. I highly doubt a 1" valve would flow 37 gpm with a 1 psi drop.

Here is an Excel sheet to calculate. With a 37 gpm flow, 15 psi drop that would be a valve of arounrd 10Cv, That sounds more resonable

Here is the spec sheet. Lists 37 cv (The explanatory note Says 'gpm at 1 psi drop') and an equivalent pipe length of 3.5'

In another column it states the max differential across the valve is15 psi. So now I'm more confused.

http://www.emersonclimate.com/en-us/Products/Valves/Documents/Cat_06_pg0134.pdf

For comparison the sentry lists a cv of 8.9 with an equivalent pipe of 47'

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/101-140.pdf

 

[BravoWhiskey]

Here is the spec sheet. Lists 37 cv (The explanatory note Says 'gpm at 1 psi drop') and an equivalent pipe length of 3.5'

In another column it states the max differential across the valve is15 psi. So now I'm more confused.

http://www.emersonclimate.com/en-us/Products/Valves/Documents/Cat_06_pg0134.pdf

For comparison the sentry lists a cv of 8.9 with an equivalent pipe of 47'

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/101-140.pdf

The Cv of 37 looks right, it just has a lot bigger hole in it than the other valve. There's such a thing as a 1" valve with a Cv up over 80. The max differential is the most pressure differential the valve would want to see from one side to the other when opening. If there was a 15 psi pressure drop across the valve when it was open the water would be flowing at 'ludicrous speed'! The 8.9 valve is just a smaller valve for applications that can use a smaller valve.

 

[kopeck]

Have you looked at Belimo.

They seem to have a valve for everything. I just installed a 3 way valve, very nice unit. It obviously wasn't full ported but it had the lowest CV of anything I could find. They're 2 ways valves are fully ported.

Heaterman turned me on to them, he seemed to like them a lot.

K

 

[Bob Rohr]

The Cv of 37 looks right, it just has a lot bigger hole in it than the other valve. There's such a thing as a 1" valve with a Cv up over 80. The max differential is the most pressure differential the valve would want to see from one side to the other when opening. If there was a 15 psi pressure drop across the valve when it was open the water would be flowing at 'ludicrous speed'! The 8.9 valve is just a smaller valve for applications that can use a smaller valve.

Looking at the B&G System Sizer it shows at 37 gpm flow thru a 1" pipe you have about 40 feet per second velocity! Typically 10- 12 GPM thru 1" pipe is acceptable design condition at 4 FPS velocity.

Velocity in hydronic piping should be between 2- 4 FPS to accomplish good air removal and provide quiet reliable systems. Below 2 FPS the slug of water may not push the air along the piping. Above the suggested 4 FPS you get noise and wear in the components.

Domestic water piping sometimes pushes 8 FPS especially in commercial installations with toilet or urinal flush valves an intermittent flow situation.

I doubt a 1" valve flowing 37 gpm would last very long or even shut off very well? But I will quizz the White Rogers folks on that spec.

 

[BravoWhiskey]

Looking at the B&G System Sizer it shows at 37 gpm flow thru a 1" pipe you have about 40 feet per second velocity! Typically 10- 12 GPM thru 1" pipe is acceptable design condition at 4 FPS velocity.

Velocity in hydronic piping should be between 2- 4 FPS to accomplish good air removal and provide quiet reliable systems. Below 2 FPS the slug of water may not push the air along the piping. Above the suggested 4 FPS you get noise and wear in the components.

Domestic water piping sometimes pushes 8 FPS especially in commercial installations with toilet or urinal flush valves an intermittent flow situation.

I doubt a 1" valve flowing 37 gpm would last very long or even shut off very well? But I will quizz the White Rogers folks on that spec.

The Cv merely says what the flow rate would have to be in order to show 1 psi loss of head, it is just way of describing the flow characteristics of the valve. Just because you would need 37 gpm to show 1 psi of head loss doesn't mean you would ever use a 1" valve to flow 37 gpm.

 

[BoilerMan]

What he said ^^^^^^

1" in a hydronic system is good for around 10gpm.

TS

 

[Bob Rohr]

The Cv merely says what the flow rate would have to be in order to show 1 psi loss of head, it is just way of describing the flow characteristics of the valve. Just because you would need 37 gpm to show 1 psi of head loss doesn't mean you would ever use a 1" valve to flow 37 gpm.

Just a little confusing how they word it. The industry definition of Cv is flow rate at a 1 psi drop.

They use the term Cv but also "flow capacity Cv" I've never seen it described that way.

We flow test a lot of products, both the valves we manufacture and our competitiors. No doubt that type of valve has a larger flow passage than a flapper type, my sources feel 8-10 Cv would be a realistic number, without actually putting it on the test bench and flowing it.

 

[maple1]

I ordered a 1in full port valve today from a different supplier than the one I usually use. Supposed to be here in a couple of days. Not sure what it is - I think a Taco. Guess I'll find out when it gets here - kind of leery about it, almost seemed too quick & easy when I told him what I was looking for.