Suggestions - insert installed with no blower

[Armoured]

I've recently had a fireplace insert installed in the open fireplace, with piping up through the chimney. It's a pretty basic unit but seems big enough for the place, and the several times I've used it, it gets good and hot and seems to be burning well. It certainly helps with the heat, and lovely to watch. It was installed with what seems like decent care despite the issue here.

It doesn't, however, seem to do a very good job of distributing heat. It's been installed with facing around it on the three edges - I forget the name of the material but basically a fire-proof drywall. There is probably 10-12 inches on all three sides before the walls of the old fireplace (firebrick and concrete, it seems). The facing gets good and hot, and eventually the brick of the fireplace (on an exterior wall) gets warm as well, but there's clearly not a lot of air movement around it or in behind the facing and out, so the cast-iron of the insert is obviously generating a lot of hit straight into all that brick - with only the glass door as the main heat source to the room. The insert had a fair amount of room inside the fireplace to the sides and a reasonable amount behind it, but I don't believe there is any clearance to speak of under it. The bottom has a combined air intake/ash pan that provides good circulation into the insert.

This unit doesn't seem to have an option or any kind of blower unit. Any suggestions?

I'm thinking one of two things:
1) Drill some holes at the bottom of the facing to let air in behind to the body of the insert, and either some holes at the top or even remove a chunk of the facing immediately above and install a grill. If I were to do that, perhaps it would make sense to put holes on one side at the bottom and other side at the top?

2) Get someone in to install a blower - I guess at the side or the top. There's no built-in power connection but that can probably be worked out. I presume it must be possible to install for the space around even if the insert itself wasn't designed for one, but I'd obviously like to try the easier of the solutions first.

Any other suggestions (or more detailed ones than what I've thought of here)? I'm inclined to try the small holes/vents and larger holes/vents/grill at the top.

The facing has been screwed into metal bits to hold in place, so should be possible to remove them to look around if needed. Facing is basically flush with the concrete/brick of the original fireplace.

 

[PLAYS WITH FIRE]

Detailed photos are good for this type of question.

 

[Retreadsme]

If you can give some information about brand and model of the insert it would help tremendously. One good picture will tell a story that takes many words to try describing also. Inserts without fans are not going to put much heat into the room. If the surround is removed and there is a blockoff plate in the chimney then more heat will radiate out into the room. If you can, send a picture and I'm sure lots of folks here will offer their assistance.

 

[Armoured]

Sorry, here's just about the only photo I have, embarrassingly.

As you can see, the plan is to pretty up the whole spartan arrangement ... later.

Here's the insert if it helps to understand:

All thoughts welcome, thanks!

 

[Armoured]

If you can give some information about brand and model of the insert it would help tremendously.

Thanks, the unit is a Kratki Felix 16 kw. Info at Kratki.eu, unfortunately not all in English.

 

[WoodpileOCD]

Wow... that's a LOT of glass. You should be getting a lot of radiant heat out the front of that one.

 

[Armoured]

Wow... that's a LOT of glass. You should be getting a lot of radiant heat out the front of that one.

Yes, it does give off a lot of radiant heat and it's very, very nice when you're within a meter or two of it. Frankly, it's a big improvement, just I'm convinced it should be able to put a lot more heat out and be more effective at heating the whole place up. The house is not that big (150 sq. m., about ~1500 sq ft?), but I've also not got a good feel yet for how well it works. Only had it a few weekends, and the most recent stretch was in -25C (single digits in fahrenheit? Close to zero F?). House has electric heat with rads for the time being but expensive and it cycles on a lot even when this beast is going full bore.

 

[PLAYS WITH FIRE]

I would hate to take away from the apearance of the insert as it is very nice...But maybe something you can do to pull the hot air safely from inside the fireplace? I would think that a squirrel cage fan pointed at the bottom to force air out top would also force feed your draft? Maybe that can be controlled? If you remove the top cover does a lot of heat escape? Do you have a block off plate?

If you have a block off plate it will definetly help to keep the heat in the house. It will also help so if you make something to pull the heat out that you are also not pulling cold air from the stack in!

There is something that can be done but will it be SAFE most importantlty and will it keep the mrs happy?

 

[begreen]

Can the cement board side panels be removed? I'm wondering if the top cement board could get a large, horizontal black vent grille?

 

[Retreadsme]

After looking at the mfg info and some additional web sites, I have another question. What does your enclosure look like above the fireplace? The Kratki line is a bit different from our normal wood heating appliance, but it reminds me (roughly if you have a vivid imagination) of a boiler system we had on a dustpan dredge and when I saw the water jacket system on the Kratki units it just brought tears to my eyes !
As you probably know, that unit is built to radiate heat in five directions, sideways and up. Since it does not have sealed air chamber system I would suspect the most efficient means of capturing the heat will be by using an "air exchange box".

If there is boxed in air space above the insert where two 25x25mm grills can go, then you may want to consider putting them in and also place 1 or 2 at the bottom with a small fan mounted in one or both of the lower holes to bring in cool air. If there is no space above, then you may want to consider doing a similar install at a lower elevation for the upper outlets.
I'm just curious as to whether you have the optional automatic flue damper.

For anyone interested, here is a link (hopefully) to (of all places) ebay where one is being offered for sale. The reason I included this link is because there are more pictures that allow one to see how it functions optimally IMO.
It's always great to see what products are available outside the U.S.A.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Kamineinsatz...W-/230739096165?pt=Kamine&hash=item35b91f3265

 

[begreen]

It really does look designed to be cabinet installed or at least with some thermal mass and convective venting system. Here's an example:

 

[Armoured]

Can the cement board side panels be removed? I'm wondering if the top cement board could get a large, horizontal black vent grille?

When you say the cement board panels, if you mean the lighter grey surrounding the glass, yes, they can be removed - you can actually see the retaining screws. The darker grey is basically cement on firebrick - a thin layer - and can't be (easily anyway).

And putting a vent grille is more or less what I was thinking of. Thinking about it, I figure that it may make sense to remove the top panel (and maybe even side panels) next time I use it and see if it makes any difference in circulation of hot air.

 

[Armoured]

After looking at the mfg info and some additional web sites, I have another question. What does your enclosure look like above the fireplace?

Unfortunately I don't have photos but the fireplace was not purpose-designed for this insert. It was an open-style fireplace, which I never used, but the previous owner had actually sealed off with plywood. As is often the case with the open ones, it didn't provide much heat (probably negative), smoked a lot, and as it was open, you didn't feel safe using it without constant monitoring. With a kid around, he boarded it up and stopped the draught. I'm not certain if the installers put a blockoff plate - but at minimum the area up the traditional chimney was blocked off with rockwool.

If there is boxed in air space above the insert where two 25x25mm grills can go, then you may want to consider putting them in and also place 1 or 2 at the bottom with a small fan mounted in one or both of the lower holes to bring in cool air. If there is no space above, then you may want to consider doing a similar install at a lower elevation for the upper outlets.
I'm just curious as to whether you have the optional automatic flue damper.

No, I didn't get the automatic flue damper. The light grey panelling above can be removed and grills put in, and likewise below to the side - that's about what I was thinking. There is some room 'above' the facing part and behind the concrete but not much before it is blocked off. (When you say 25x25mm grills what do you mean? Or a picture? I assume you mean the pattern sizes.)

I'm pretty sure that anything above that would require brickwork/drilling (which may be possible but I'd like to try other options first). The original fireplace had the damper handle inset in the wall about two feet above the mantel - and while it probably would be possible to fiddle around with that part to inset a convection plate, it would be a lot of work.

Someone mentioned a squirrel cage fan or other fan - anything to look for? I'll obviously need to get a fan that can take considerable heat if installed in the area available around the insert.

For anyone interested, here is a link (hopefully) to (of all places) ebay where one is being offered for sale. The reason I included this link is because there are more pictures that allow one to see how it functions optimally IMO.
It's always great to see what products are available outside the U.S.A.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Kamineinsatz...W-/230739096165?pt=Kamine&hash=item35b91f3265

Thanks, that insert is a different model but fairly similar (mine is the Felix); the main difference is the height of the iron part extending above the glass door, lower in my case (corresponding to the maximum clearance to the dark grey cement in photo above). Other and moving parts the same as far as I can tell.

 

[Armoured]

It really does look designed to be cabinet installed or at least with some thermal mass and convective venting system. Here's an example:

That's lovely; unfortunately I'll have to work with what I've got )).

But the fireplace it is in (the lower part) has a fair amount of thermal mass and should be enough room to get some more air behind there. I think the main advantage of the system in the photo you've shown is that the temperature of the air convecting out above in the white part of the cabinet would be considerably lower - and a more even heat coming down from above (by air circulation) rather than out at the stove level. Just guessing but maybe designed that way to capture some of the advantages of the masonry type stoves.

 

[Armoured]

I would hate to take away from the apearance of the insert as it is very nice...But maybe something you can do to pull the hot air safely from inside the fireplace? I would think that a squirrel cage fan pointed at the bottom to force air out top would also force feed your draft? Maybe that can be controlled? If you remove the top cover does a lot of heat escape? Do you have a block off plate?

If you have a block off plate it will definetly help to keep the heat in the house. It will also help so if you make something to pull the heat out that you are also not pulling cold air from the stack in!

There is something that can be done but will it be SAFE most importantlty and will it keep the mrs happy?

I think there is rockwool installed either with or instead of a block-off plate. What you're suggesting with a fan or even just putting a grille to let air circulate around behind there is what I'm thinking. Have not yet pulled that top cover/panel and am not out at that place now but will try it first chance I get.

Fortunately the Mrs. is okay with whatever I do to keep the place warm (and safe). At least she says so. At any rate when the season is over and all working okay she has carte blanche to do the finishing (she even agreed to pay for that - 'cause otherwise the cement looks good to me). It's her job to arrange for natural gas hookup and not making much progress.

 

[begreen]

What is the situation here? What structure was this installed in? Masonry or metal cabinet?

Also, just out of curiosity, are you native Russian or a transplant?

 

[Armoured]

What is the situation here? What structure was this installed in? Masonry or metal cabinet?

Also, just out of curiosity, are you native Russian or a transplant?

My pictures are above. It's installed in a former open-hearth fireplace, firebricked, with cement facing. On the picture above (with the ugly facing) that between the insert and the firebricks there's a gap around the insert, mostly air, corresponding roughly to the size of the facing (maybe 10-12 inches per side). (Actually above and behind the front part there is more space where the upper part of the open-hearth fireplace extended up to the damper).

I am a transplant - the building is my wife's dacha.

 

[EJL923]

It looks like it is suppose to be able to have air circulated around the stove, given the radiator type fins all around the outside. They aren't there for looks. I think BG is right on.

 

[Armoured]

It looks like it is suppose to be able to have air circulated around the stove, given the radiator type fins all around the outside. They aren't there for looks. I think BG is right on.

Thanks, that is my feeling as well. I'm going to try removing the top cement board first to see if that provides some additional air flow out. Next would be to drill some vent holes on the sides to allow the air to enter at the bottom, hopefully around and over and out. Obviously a room fan might help as well. (I have extra cement board if needed later)

Eventually I guess the ideal would be to put some kind of ventilator/fan in there to draw in air and/or push it out, especially to draw around the full body of the insert.

Anyone have suggestions on how to tell if a fan/ventilator is well made enough to put in there and withstand relatively high temps? Comments on the wiring (especially to power so that wires can withstand)? Or maybe some kind of powerless fan in there would help somehow.

 

[EJL923]

One other observation. I think ventilating at the top and bottom will definitely help, as that's how most standard wood inserts are made. However, i am not familiar with cabinet type systems in how they are suppose to be vented. My thought is, as shown in BG's picture, that a higher vent will produce more draft and more heat. Any venting right now is going to better than you have shown. A lot of guys with inserts, me included, will take the surrounds off during outages. It is the only way to get heat out.

 

[begreen]

In order to get the most out of this unit, I think it will need a block off plate at the damper area. Otherwise you are just going to end up with a very hot chimney. Roxul is good, but it will still breathe a bit. A metal plate surrounding the flue with the Roxul behind it would be best.

Then there definitely needs to be a way for the heat to escape. Intake vents at the lower, left and right sides (say 4"x 10") and a large grille (4" x 24") at the top will facilitate this. For a blower I would try a pair of flat 4", 100cfm, axial (muffin) fans like you see in some computers, though you will need 220v fans unless you are going to run these off a 12v battery. The fans should be mounted low on each side. I suspect they will be shallow enough to not be seriously impacted by radiant heat from the stove, but if they are, a small L-shaped heat shield could be made for each one. The fans would blow cool room air into the cavity around the stove.

PS: What is the cement board screwed into?

 

[Armoured]

In order to get the most out of this unit, I think it will need a block off plate at the damper area. Otherwise you are just going to end up with a very hot chimney. Roxul is good, but it will still breathe a bit. A metal plate surrounding the flue with the Roxul behind it would be best.

Then there definitely needs to be a way for the heat to escape. Intake vents at the lower, left and right sides (say 4"x 10") and a large grille (4" x 24") at the top will facilitate this. For a blower I would try a pair of flat 4", 100cfm, axial (muffin) fans like you see in some computers, though you will need 220v fans unless you are going to run these off a 12v battery. The fans should be mounted low on each side. I suspect they will be shallow enough to not be seriously impacted by radiant heat from the stove, but if they are, a small L-shaped heat shield could be made for each one. The fans would blow cool room air into the cavity around the stove.

PS: What is the cement board screwed into?

Thanks. I'll look into the block-off plate although that will likely have to wait until warmer weather. There may be some from of blocker plate, and the brick/masonry damping plate was pretty substantial - I just can't check right now. It may also be able to find a way to vent higher up but would likely require getting through the masonry (which is not insubstantial).

I'll prioritize the venting around the edges as that's a clear issue and easily done. I was also thinking about the smallish muffin fans, I guess the worst that is likely to happen with those is the electrics quitting. 220v of course (or battery). Some low-key ventilation like floor fans nearby also can't hurt just to move the heat around more.

Getting this to perfect might take some time but it's already a big improvement over no insert. I'm pretty optimistic that with venting in particular it will get us to most of what we need - better quality of heat, substantial supplement to current (barely adequate and expensive) heating system, and ability to ramp up heat much quicker to a liveable level when we've been away and come back to a chilly place. Anything above that will be gravy (and that unit should be able to overfulfill that modest mission). Flame TV already a favourite, and much more than expected, and cat has a new favourite sleeping area (floor nearby when the fire's gone to mostly coals).

The cement board is screwed into a simple metal frame of sheet metal attached to the fireplace frame (not at site to look closer). It could all be removed pretty easily. Since the idea is to eventually get the facing done over and the thing hussied up, I can probably combine with some other work and more permanent solutions to these other things, but warmth first.

Much appreciate the suggestions.

 

[Retreadsme]

Armoured - when I typed 25mm grill I actually meant 25cm. 25mm would be rather small wouldn't it ! HA! The intention was as BG said ... get some openings (whatever size) above and below to move air in and out of the super heated space. For some reason that ebay site shows a Zuzia which has larger fins with a different pattern than the Felix, but as I scrolled down I got to the Felix. (neither here nor there)
As BG said, a solid blockoff plate will assist you a lot. I prefer high density ceramic blanket on top of a solid steel plate, but that's just me. Sounds like everyone is in agreement on the approach. Keep us informed on the project.

Just curious again - are you planning to stay long-term or be a tourist?


Получайте удовольÑтвие и Ð±Ñ‹Ñ‚Ñ Ð±ÐµÐ·Ð¾Ð¿Ð°Ñным.

 

[Armoured]

Armoured - when I typed 25mm grill I actually meant 25cm. 25mm would be rather small wouldn't it ! HA! The intention was as BG said ... get some openings (whatever size) above and below to move air in and out of the super heated space. For some reason that ebay site shows a Zuzia which has larger fins with a different pattern than the Felix, but as I scrolled down I got to the Felix. (neither here nor there)
As BG said, a solid blockoff plate will assist you a lot. I prefer high density ceramic blanket on top of a solid steel plate, but that's just me. Sounds like everyone is in agreement on the approach. Keep us informed on the project.

Just curious again - are you planning to stay long-term or be a tourist?


Получайте удовольÑтвие и быть безопаÑным.

Thanks - I figured the 25mm was meant to be the size of the mesh

Will see how this works when I get to it on the weekend.

Staying long term - I've already been here fairly long. So far my plan is to get this fireplace insert to where I want it and take it from there ...

 

[gregbesia]

Hi Armoured. I just got off the phone with the manufacturer of Your insert in Poland.
A nice lady there told me that they sell grills for Felix- bottom grill 17cm by 37cm and top grill 17cm by 49cm .
She said that once installed , cold air is drawn through the bottom and hot air exits through top one.
They apparently have few colors and finishes. I also asked about a fan , but she said the only thing they install is a system of ducts from the insert to a couple of closest rooms , however that cost a lot more. At this time they dont have any dealers in Russia.