Suppliment to Geothermal?

[jazzbiker]

Merry Christmas everyone. I'd like to find out if an insert or stove would be a good supplement to my geo system.
I have a 2 story home, again, with a geothermal heat pump and a builder box (0 clearance) fireplace. Would a stand alone stove or insert be a good way to deal with the following?

1. Lowering overall heating costs by warming the downstairs family room (downstairs is cooler than upstairs)
2. Serve as an effective backup heater when we have electrical outages. (I have a 5000w generator which is too little to run the Geo)

As far as overall heating hosts, I'm not sure if the electric I'd save by dropping the thermostat 5-7 degrees minus the cost of pellet fuel would amount to much. There have been times
when the Geo died on me and straight resistance heating kicked in. When that happens, I see $700+ electric bills. Otherwise $350-400 during the coldest months here in Ohio.
Would the combination of tax incentives and pellet/corn fuel costs make this a good idea?


Thanks,
Dave

 

[firefighterjake]

Hmmm . . . you're asking us, a woodstove forum, if it would be a good idea to have a woodstove? Hehheh . . . yeah, we're a bit biased.

But to heck with wood being a supplemental heat source . . . for many of us our oil, gas and heat pumps are our supplemental heat sources to our woodstoves. I use my woodstove for maybe 90-95% of my heating needs with the oil boiler kicking on automatically when the temps dip below 60 degrees inside -- which is nice for when I'm away from the house too long or when we're on vacation. With oil runing at $3.50 +/- I've saved a lot of money with wood.

 

[begreen]

Greetings Dave and welcome. I have an air heat pump primary system and wood stove. We use the stove a lot, particularly when the temps get below 45F. We also get several extended power outages. Whether it saves you money or not will depend on the cost of getting fuel in your area. The deep heating warmth of the stove and beautiful fire view? Well, they are kind of priceless, especially to a firebug. Which one will be the best fit will depend on your lifestyle. But I would recommend a woodstove over pellet if the power outages are frequent and extended.

 

[HotCoals]

I have a heat pump and e-furance..they are back ups to my stove.
It seems you might have found out that geo cost more to run then people say...not to mention repairs.
I have yet to have a wood stove break down to where I could not use it.

Curious though..if you have forced air geo does the blowers run almost all the time in cold temp?

 

[woodgeek]

You have to crunch the numbers to get a good answer--a lot of folks think because their heat bill is higher than they want to pay, then every other heat source must be cheaper. If I were still burning oil, my bills would be north of $1000/mo here in tropical PA. Depending on the size of your house and the insulation, $300/mo in OH might be cheap compared to the alternatives. IF your system is calling a lot of strip heat, AND its well serviced/undersized, some house airsealing or insulation could fix that by reducing your load for a lot cheaper than new iron.

That said, of course you should get a stove, makes a home. Skip the pellets and put biomass bricks in your stove if you don't want to deal with cordwood, and you'll be good to go in any outage.

 

[jazzbiker]

Thanks. The blower on the geo does not run constantly in extreme cold. Re going with a wood/bio brck instead of pellet, would I still need some electric for blower?

 

[begreen]

No, some wood stoves don't even come with a blower. How well that would work for you depends on the house layout. If the stove is centrally located and there is a large open stairway nearby, the heat will convect pretty well. If not, then a blower and maybe a circulation fan may be helpful. Still, durning an extended power outage having one nice big warm room can be a godsend. You just might find yourselves camping out in the family room then.

 

[HotCoals]

A wild somewhat educated guesstamate for buying wood to heat a fairly large well insulated house with wood in Ohio might be in the 700-$900.00 range.
Bricks maybe 25% more.
Ambiance and knowing the power company didn't get that money and more..priceless.

 

[rwhite]

How many families do you see gathered around the duct work sharing stories? There are many benefits beyond heating to a stove. But I will agree that the forced air become supplemental. Good exercise getting the wood, keeps ya busy fiddlin with the stove and gives you a good reason to come on here. I vote wood! Seems like a toss up if you buy all your wood whether to go pellet or wood. But if you do any type of camping, fishing or hunting you can work in a few truck loads a year and you were gonna be there anyway.

 

[babzog]

I've got geo as well and have found a lot of the same irritations as the OP. Had a $1000 hydro bill one month when the electrics kicked on unbeknownst to us. Whole geo had died, took a $5k repair to rebuild the unit (had insurance so it only cost me a bill).

Our monthly bills in winter are probably $300 more than summer, shoulder maybe half that. So, whole heating bill for a year, Oct-Apr could be about $1600. If I can provide maybe 90% of that with wood, then I'd be looking at an annual wood heating value of $1440. I burn about a cord every two weeks; 24 weeks of burning time / 2 x $90 / cord is a wood heating bill of $1080, IF I have it cut split and delivered. There are initial savings (of wood over geo) of $360, more if I scrounge and process myself. I have picked up a years worth this fall for a cost of about $250 in gas.

We just installed an RSF Opel 3 for just over $11k. Payback, best case, if I scrounge and process my own wood, is about 10 years: $11000 / ($1440 - $250 (costs - gas mostly, $250)). I suppose I should add a couple years to account for tool costs (saw, splitter, PE gear). Already well into stockpiling wood with about 2.5 yrs onsite. For comparison, if I bought truckloads of logs and processed it myself, I'd be looking at about another 6 yrs for payback.

Either way, it's well within the warranty period for the Opel. And... I haven't even factored in the massive increases in hydro rates than our wunnerful gubmint will be foisting on us in the not distant future (which means a quicker payback for me).

What we are enjoying now is a warm home and a beautiful fire in the living rm. It was always cool in the house and I never wanted to turn the temp up due to the cost to run the geo. Once the Opel's heat duct is hooked up to the plenum, we'll have a warm home for a reasonable cost and a reasonable payback timeframe. Plus, we'll have heat during a power outage. Worth it? Oh yeah, every penny!

 

[fdegree]

I will admit, this is comparing apples and oranges...we have different climates, different homes with different heat loss values, different types of heat pumps, different electric rates, etc.

My home is 2300 sq. ft....4 ton air-to-air heat pump...oil furnace, instead of electric strip heat, as the heat pumps back up.

Last year was my first year with a wood stove and I tracked the following:
...wood usage (I purchase my wood already cut - split - delivered - stacked for me.)
...electric usage compared to the previous winter
...oil usage compared to the previous winter

Last year I spent as much in wood, as I did in electric the previous year, to keep my house around 72*. So, wood usage vs. electric usage resulted in zero savings. But, I saved $1,000 in fuel oil costs...well worth the investment for me.

You will have to do some research to figure out your cost difference. Prior to purchasing the wood stove, I figured I would save around $1,000 to $1,200 a year...I suppose I guessed correctly.

 

[HotCoals]

My step daughter and her boyfriend just built a new house.
They spent a lot of money on geo.
They did at least have a chase put in for a flue to have a wood stove later..I thought they should have installed one right away and just put in a propane furnace.
He does want to burn wood later..he told me so.
To each his own I guess.

 

[woodgeek]

My step daughter and her boyfriend just built a new house.
They spent a lot of money on geo.
They did at least have a chase put in for a flue to have a wood stove later..I thought they should have installed one right away and just put in a propane furnace.
He does want to burn wood later..he told me so.
To each his own I guess.

I think the payback between modern geo and propane is pretty favorable, esp in new construction. If I was building in a colder climate, I would consider it.

 

[Wood Duck]

The quick answer to your question is yes a wood stove will reduce the cost of electricity for your ground-source heat pump system and a wood stove can run without electricity. Any heat source in the house will cause the heat pump to run less maybe a lot less maybe a little less but the real question is how much benefit will you get from a wood stove. You need to know the cost and estimate the savings. Installation costs are fairly easy to figure out, then you need the cost of fuel. If you have a place to cut wood or want to scrounge wood you can probably scrounge enough for free, but there is the cost of hauling, equipment, etc. If you need to buy firewood you might not save a whole lot, but you'll still have a backup in case of electricity outage.

I think I save only $200 to $300 per cord of wood I burn and $200 to $300 is about the going rate for cut split firewood. It is cheaper if you buy logs and cut them yourself, and cheaper still if you scrounge free wood.

Edit: My only heat alternative to the wood stove is electric resistance heat.

 

[superbee69]

We have installed a GSHP unit in open floor plan 3000sqft home. Geo seems to be having no problems keeping up thus far. My folks have a similar set up and they claim they can run the geo in the coldest of winter and have about a 150-$200 electric bill. They also claim that because the geo heats part of their hot water the bills are essentially the same as running the kozy heat z42 zc fireplace (with blower) for the month, requiring full electric water heating. They do however keep the emergency heat breaker turned off. (We keep ours turned off too).

We installed a z42 kozy heat on the main level, and a PE super 27 in the basement.

Our electric coop offers rebates on GSHP installs, as well as the gov't tax rebate made the full install very competitive with other alternative systems. Seems as though there are many factors that effect the efficiency of the GSHP buried loop.

my 2 cents.

 

[babzog]

^^^

Hmm. I pay a LOT more than that, but I also have an open loop system. Running that 240v well pump all the time costs $$. My DHW is propane (also dryer and range).

 

[superbee69]

I can see where an open loop well pump would use up some juice. The only thing powering the closed loop is a small motor (1/6hp I think). Climate seems to be a big factor. If the high temperature for the day was 15 after an extended cold spell, I'm fairly certain the GHSP would not be able to fully keep up. Not because of the loop temp changing, but because the heat output just can't keep up with the loss.

 

[superbee69]

In our area we also have a competitive electricity rate which helps.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

WHen considering the high cost of Geo-thermal install and maintenance it seems super insulation would be a better investment in which your home would then require very little of any kind of additional heating or cooling.Something that would easily be accomplished by a very small wood stove or even a plug in electric heater. Some companies in my area recommend this higher level of insulation before considering GT. If its done well enough you could skip the whole expense of GT altogether.

 

[mbcijim]

I have Geo and a woodstove.

A lot has been covered, I'll just say one thing.

We just went through extensive power outages here in Pennsylvania. My area was hit with 2-7 day power outages on 3 occasions over 4 months. 2 of my family members are spending $6,000 each to install whole house generators because they were cold. I'm not. When the power goes out at my house I make sure the wood stove stays burning. I can keep my first floor at 70-72 with the woodstove on the coldest days. I did put a very large return in directly over the woodstove so the heat is well dissipated by my duct work.

 

[superbee69]

I agree with everyone that there is no substitute for wood heat as a supplement, or a primary if the circumstances allow. (Wood availability, work schedule, etc). We installed 2 wood burner units to not use the geo in dead of winter. Shoulder season will likely get the geo if it can show to be reliable and cost effective. (or else the PE, and the Kozy will get the nod)

Some folks must have very much over paid for a GSHP install, or had to choose wells and an open system because of space. With the tax incentive, and other rebates we got, it was very competitive to other forced air options. 4 ton unit was 7k, install of closed ground loop 2k, and ducting/install was an additional 5k. Tax rebate was 30% of 9k, our electric coop offered a rebate of $600 per ton, with max of $1800 rebate. Total cost of install was around $9500.