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SUV's exempt from Gas Guzzler Tax!

Post in 'The Green Room' started by webbie, Oct 19, 2006.

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  1. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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  2. Sandor

    Sandor Minister of Fire

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    Reason 345345234552345 why we are doomed.

    Like the little guy with the turtle cap on Gullivers Travel, "W'ell never make it!"

    We will collectively plunder everything until all is lost.
  3. spot

    spot New Member

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    Hooray!!

    2000 Xterra 4x4, grille-guard, KC Daylighters, Nerf bars, roof rack, 31-inch BFGoodrich A/T's.....Grrrr....Arrrrrr! (pounding chest)

    13 mpg and I LOVE IT!

    I have a little civic which gets 35 to 40 mpg. I drive it when the hair on my knuckles gets too thick.
  4. babalu87

    babalu87 New Member

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    They pay enough tax on every fill up (ducks and runs for cover)
  5. saichele

    saichele Minister of Fire

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    This isn't news. It's been this way for years.

    Steve
  6. northwinds

    northwinds Minister of Fire

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  7. bruce56bb

    bruce56bb New Member

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    13 mpg???? i need to hook you up with a new suburban:)
  8. spot

    spot New Member

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    Yep...13!

    That is what it was when I first got it and that is what it is today.
    I do the math every fill-up and always come out between 12 and 15.

    I have done everything in the book to raise my mpg: correct tire pressure, synthetic oil, no junk-in-the-trunk, brakes checked, conservative driving, wheel bearings checked, etc. etc. etc. -I even took off the roof rack, grille guard and nerf bars (to paint them) and drove it around "naked" (and supposedly more aerodynamic) for a while...still 13.

    So, um, yeah, suburbans, hummers, etc. all get better mileage than me.

    I have been to xterraownersclub.com and discussed it with other Nissan Xterra owners and they all agree 13 is about average. A few claim to get better...but for the most part 13 it is.
  9. Sandor

    Sandor Minister of Fire

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    2004 Z-71. 5.3Litre.

    19.7 Summer Average.

    20.8 All time personal record.

    19 Winter Average.

    13 Towing 5000lb camper to the Outer Banks Labor Day weekend with 4 people in the cab. (3 women, so you know I was loaded up)

    Check out the mileage rating on the new all aluminum block 5.3L 2007 Silverado's.
  10. bruce56bb

    bruce56bb New Member

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    3 women....thats a guaranteed extra 1000lbs of luggage!
  11. CrazyAboutOrchids

    CrazyAboutOrchids New Member

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    Oh phewey... SUV's are not the cause of our dependance on oil. But they are out there and they give folks like you reason to post threads like this. As I've mentioned in past years, I drive a Yukon XL and I love it - won't give it up! Can't tow my camper with a bicycle and I don't want to give up the pleasure of taking my family out to camp in our almost 4000 lb pop up. Charge me a gas guzzler tax? Than add on to your list of vehicles that get cruddy gas mileage. My GMC happens to get the best gas mileage of the bunch, including MANY much smaller SUVs. Yeah, not everyone needs one, but they do serve a purpose. Ever take your family camping? It's a great time to be 'out there' and sure, I could do it in a tent, but I have no desire to anymore.

    How about mini vans? Ever post on the evils of mini vans and how many of them happen to be on the road. I used to drive a mini van, had 2 in fact. They got me 1 mpg more in highway gas mileage than my current vehicle. What do I SAVE with my current vehicle? Well, each time we camp, even getting 13.5 - 14.5 mpg towing, I figure we save at least 20 mpg. Why? Well, we no longer need 2 vehicles to get the 5 of us, supplies, dog, fishing poles, tackle, etc. to a camp ground. We are happily crammed in one huge land yacht towing a grossly oversized pop up SAVING gas!!!!

    How about cars? The Chrysler 300 gets less mpg city driving than I get towing a camper! Where's the uproard over that? There's many other cars than get absolutley wretched gas milage yet no one spray paints them and labels them as evil and blames them for the US oil troubles.

    So, where does the trouble lie? Well, you can't blame the SUV's completely. Folks need trucks, folks need SUVs and yes, not everyone does. Folks have completely bought in to the sales pitch that they HAVE TO HAVE 4WD in order to drive through snow and rain. Funny, go up over the border as we do many years to travel to hubby's family, where they have snow that hits the roof of single story homes and hey, my MIL drives a Hyundai with no 4wd. Wonder how she gets along? Humm.... could it be she knows how to handle a vehicle and drive safely, not rely on a vehicle to drive for her? Many folks here rely on vehicles, not skills, to drive. Makes it scary on the road out there when you realize just how many women AND men cannot handle a vehicle properly on their own. Wonder how our society got anywhere in years past before 4wd. Strange how as a teenager I was taught to drive in a 4 door Nissan that got over 40mpg, but over the years our vehicles have decreased in mileage rather than improved upon. Of course, show a man a souped up car with mega horsepower in it and his eyes will glaze over... but blame it on those big SUVs not the modern worlds thrill of a faster, more powerful car.

    Then of course, there is electricity. Here in the Eastern part of the US much of our electricity is created via oil. We could use wind technology, so darn cheap, but no one wants to fill up the landscape with wind turbines, it would look much better razed down, paved over with a condo complex on it. Solar power? Awesome stuff, love to have it, but so costly and again, modern folks don't want to 'dirty up' the landscape with solar panels.

    Our electrical demands increase our need for oil since we haven't and probably won't move away from oil generated electricity any time soon. Folsk don't want to think about where the stuff comes fromt hat powers up things when you flip that switch. They just want more and more items that can do the work for them, make their lives easier, the power of modern technology is quite costly in more ways then one. Our society lives pretty much climate controlled - afarid to be too hot, too cold. Turn the furnace on, turn the a/c on, man I have neighbors that if one isn't running the other is. Then of course you need all this indoor air "purification" machinery to clean out the air in your house since the windows are never opened.

    Internet, ever see anyone screaming about the internet or computers? Hum... wonder how much electricity is used on a daily basis by all the pcs running and with folks accessing the internet. This webpage in fact, wonder how much electricity is used on a daily basis with folks checking the forum and how much of that electricity comes from burning oil?

    So, tax my SUV? Whatever... I say open your eyes, it's just not one thing causing dependancy. It's a multitude of items that we've grown comfortable with over the years. Want to cut it down? Turn off the lights, turn off the tvs, turn off the pcs, turn up the a/c, turn down the heat. Folks here have a great jump on some, they use alternative sources of heat, but there's so much out there that is so much bigger and more costly than my big old SUV.... Meet me in real life, I am fairly close to being considered a tree hugger. I take more care of my environment than most, even with my big old, gas guzzling SUV. We practice conservation, we grow vegies on our deck, we cook almost 100% from scratch - no processed foods here, we use homeopathic medicine, I wash floors on my hands and knees, my home is organic in and out, I don't use chemicals in my home nor on my lawn (and I have the best looking lawn in my neighborhood) and I love my gas guzzling SUV!!!
  12. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    This entire web site is run on one small computer with no monitor - probably about 3-4 light bulbs worth of electric. I would guess that the tips we give for increasing efficiency and renewable uses far outweight those bulbs - but it would not be a bad idea for use to purchase some renewable credits to offset even those few watts.

    Sandy, don't take it personal. We are all hypocrites, starting with yours truly.....and there is much more to it than even that. We have a lack of leadership, a lack of future planning and a lack of education. Certainly SUV's and McMansions are a easy target - and even a fitting one. However, you would not miss your Yukon if you never knew such a thing existed, and perhaps that is the right idea - a national energy policy that somehow attempts to balance "need" with "want". You are already taxed many times on your car - when you bought it, every year (registration or local tax) as well as when you buy gas.

    People do not have faith in our government.....but I'll tell you this - we can be 100% certain that there are no facts that will cause our population as a whole to save energy and resources. In other words, we are willing to invade the world, cut off mountaintops, poison our water, etc. etc. just to have things we do not need. So, what is the answer?

    In my opinion there are three components - Legislative, Economic and Personal....... to add to this, there is technology, although we usually use that for the wrong thing (example, making your Yukon get 16MPG instead of making a smaller van get 40). This whole neocon idea about leaving everything alone and people will sort it out...does not work! Never has. Yet, legislation, CAFE standards, etc. - THEY DO WORK. So does taxation.

    It's a sad world when China is beating our pants off in renewable technology!

    So, back to the SUV thing. I'm certain even you will admit there is a limit. Should folks be able to buy a vehicle TWICE the size of your car with 8MPG and not pay for the extra resources?

    Certainly SUV's are not the entire problem, but they are in the sector (transportation) which uses the most energy, and they are a significant part of that. If I had my way, they probably would not exist - that is, I would have CAFE standards that virtually elminated them....or, at least made certain that automakers made X number of efficient vehicles to a set number of less efficient ones.

    If we are even going to start down the path of a sustainable economy, we have to at least think about these things. My neighbor, for instance, goes out every morning for a cup of coffee. It's amazing to think he uses MUCH more gas than the amount of coffee which he buys or drinks!

    In the end, the only question is whether we can and should start turning this thing around - as of now, our energy use is still on an incredibly high level..... should we turn it around? And if so, how and when?
  13. CrazyAboutOrchids

    CrazyAboutOrchids New Member

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    Oh yes, I agree there is a limit. BUT, SUV's tend to be pulled out of a pack of problems, identified, "picked on" you could say. They aren't the problem, it's the public that is the problem. Yes, I drive an SUV, yes I use it for it's intended use - towing. Yes, I could drive a truck versus an SUV, but at the time of purchase I had three in car seats and no truck with 3 back shoulder belts for them. No, I am not driving all over rock beds, etc., (we do that in my BIL's old truck!).

    Do I think everyone needs an SUV - of course not! People drive them because they want BIG. Not because they need them. I just don't think they need to get pulled out of the pack as the problem. Want to tax the SUV's? Then tax ALL gas guzzling vehicles whcih would include most the cars out there, We were trying this year to replace hubbies 15 year old Audi which we bought used, decided against it. I was really disgusted at the gas mileage of our 'modern' vehicles. Unless he wants to drive a car that we cannot fit the family in comforatbly (2 are still in car seats), the gas mileage on them just stinks. That is progress?

    Is it the car manufacturers problem? Sure, we can foot the blame there. But in reality, they aren't to blame, the government isn't to blame (although folks seem quite happy to throw all the blame at the foot of our governement), who is to blame? We are! Folks want bigger, bigger, bigger.

    Heck, look at the size of new houses. It's incredible. I have what I think is a large house at almost 2500 sq feet and I don't want anything larger to heat or clean. My house looks like a weekend cottage compared to the new homes going up around me, it's incredible. Try buying furniture lately? We did. We can't find a dining room table to replace our 1940's table with the legs falling off unless we have one built, we'e sticking with the one we have for now. New furniture is huge to go into the huge homes being built. Most dining room tables are too big for my dining room. Oh, and try and put a chair around that table, holy cow they are huge! Big, big, big....

    Cars may not be bigger, but they are packed with horsepower and electronics which need to be fed with something. But folks want a car, they want it to go FAST, they want it filled to the brim with buttons and toys. All that come at a cost. I think it's sad that my vehicle, which truly gives our family such pleasure in enjoying the outdoors, is singled out as an evil when someone else can go fly down the road in a Chrysler 300 that gets worse gas milage than my vehicle, and that's okay. I live in a fairly comfortable area of CT - I doubt half the folks around me have a clue what mpg's their cars get, nor do they care. That's sad.

    What to do to stop it? I don't have a clue. I know I don't want government involved. I can't stand big government and all their programs to do this and that which end up doing nothing other than raising taxes which get fed into government employee paychecks instead of feeding into a solution for the problem. Seems like everytime we have a flip of the administration, we get more government programs initiated, higher taxes and nothing from it. Next flip, the stuff is done away with. If our admin changes, I think we are going to go back to the big government we had a few years back with higher taxes on us middle folks, hand outs to the poor so they don't have to work for stuff and rich folks who walk off with little to no taxes. I have no interest in that. I think change has got to be more in educating the public. Maybe it will take something bad happening to open folks eyes. I don't know. You'd think that the recent gas prices and oil heating prices would have opened folks eyes up, but it did nothing to stop the huge monsters being built around me. I don't want government restrictions on car manufacturers. I want the public to stand up and stop buying into the bigger and faster thing and start asking for fuel economy. With all things, it's the public and the force of supply and demand. We are asking for it, so they are building it. That cycles won't stop till the public starts demanding better.
  14. Sandor

    Sandor Minister of Fire

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    Uh, Sandy. This country generates less than 1% of our electric from burning oil.

    Now, if you count how many gallons of oil we burn mining and transporting coal, thats another story.
  15. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    I just envy the guy that is getting thirteen to the gallon.
  16. MrGriz

    MrGriz New Member

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    1995 Ford F-150 (wood hauler) -- average 16mpg

    2006 Ford E-250 (work van) -- average 14.5mpg loaded down
  17. Gunner

    Gunner New Member

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    Love my 2001 Silverado Z-71 5.3LV8. Drive it because I need to, not for a fashion statement. Tired of people in tin cans that get 40 mpg yipping about SUV's and Trucks. Drive it to work, tow a trailer, haul gravel, soil, stone, construction materials...this morning a full cord of wood. We get are share of snow, plus I do a fair amount of hunting and need 4WD. I'm 6'6" 215lbs so I like to ride in comfort not jammed in a go-cart with my knee's behind my ears. That being said I do carpool to work everyday. I get over 600 KILOMETERS/tank on the hwy. If I could find a vehicle that can do what I need it to do using less fuel I would buy it....right now they don't exist.

    Buy the way gas when as high as $1.30/litre here during the summer.
  18. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    People that need trucks are a whole different story - and although the crew here may be different, most folks don't need 'em. I actually never had a car my entire life! My current Forester is the closest thing to a car, but I've always had vans (carpentry) and pickups which were used 100% for hauling stoves, lumber, tools, etc. - even when I had a minivan, the seats were usually out of it and it towed a trailer with display units!

    I would love to have a small pickup with a small clean diesel in it....at this point in my life, I haul less (most stuff can be delivered) - and, as I said before, I have figured out that if I get a big truck, my back will be put to work...at least now I have an excuse.

    BTW, Canada scores right up there...and sometimes even ahead of the US for energy use. Then again, it is colder....and at least you folks have enough energy internally for a couple centuries. You better hope Bush doesn't decide to occupy mexico and your place.....he can be quite brutal when resources are at stake.
  19. Gunner

    Gunner New Member

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    Can't for the life of me understand why there are no small diesel trucks in North America. That would be the ticket, half-ton with a small diesel could get 30 mpg easy.
  20. Mike Wilson

    Mike Wilson New Member

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    All these liberal gloom and doom theorists just kill me.

    Don't any of you worry... when the US is finished with its new global paradigm, the world will be a better place... with plenty of cheap energy for all, good judeo-christian values, and a little bit of Mecca tucked away in EPCOT Center.
    Just drink the god-damned Kool-Aid... it will make you feel better.


    -- Mike
  21. bruce56bb

    bruce56bb New Member

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    gm and ford both have light duty diesels in the works. it will be interesting to see how many people will fork over an extra $4000 for the diesel when they do come out.
  22. colsmith

    colsmith New Member

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    Dear Gunner, my hubby is almost exactly the same size as you, he is 2 meters exactly or 6' 6 3/4". We have a Ford Ranger (smallish pickup, gets 20+ mpg) that we use to haul firewood, manure, lots of old produce, and other misc. stuff. We also have a hybrid car, a Honda Insight, tiny 2 seater, gets 50+ mpg. He fits in that better than most small and medium sized cars, and all the other hybrid cars available at the time, because no back seat means more room for the front seat and his enormous legs. We drive the hybrid most of the time and save oodles on gas. Most families have more than 1 vehicle, so no reason you have to drive your gas hungry vehicle all the time everywhere, is there? No need to be hostile to the people in little cars laughing at you from the gas pumps. :)

    What we really need in the U.S. is smaller parking spaces. Then people would have to get smaller cars, right? :) We were in the Netherlands a few years ago, they have the TINIEST little cars. And so many people on bikes most of you wouldn't believe it. I thought well, they don't have as much snow here as we do (I lived near Chicago then.) Then we went to Sweden, and saw all the bike lanes all over Stockholm, too. Americans are just lazier than most other people, to be honest. I have been in many parts of the world, North, Central, and South American, Europe, and Asia. We have the biggest houses, the biggest cars, and are the fattest people, too I think. Don't know what will help us, but we need to do something soon before the world runs out of oil. We save a lot of money by not having jobs that we need to drive to. :)

    As for a new administration raising taxes on the middle class, I would have to say this administration is spending more money than any of the previous ones (on a stupid war) but going in debt. One basic law of money is to not spend money you don't have. If we don't have the money and we need to spend it, then we have to pay for it in taxes. Going in debt and borrowing to pay current expenses isn't a very wise method of operation. I have been to countries where they don't pay many taxes and they don't have squat, and let me tell you that you don't want to live in countries where the taxes are low and mostly evaded. The poor live in median strips, small children sell candy and gum to earn money for food, there are no safety nets, no public pools, few parks, no libraries, few police (if you want protection, you hire a guy with a gun to stand in front of your home or business), people throw garbage in the streets and down mountainsides, and so on. It's not pretty and you wouldn't want to live there. Taxes have a reason, to make our country a nice place to live. I am all for them.
  23. brian_in_idaho

    brian_in_idaho New Member

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    Largely because we have fools in the EPA... Diesels typically get at least 40% better mileage than comparable gas engines and last longer, Cummins claims a 400k mile MTBR. While also producing less CO2 and therefore reducing the potential for global warming, for those that believe in that stuff. The negative is that a more efficient engine produces more NOx, and our .gov holds them to the same standards as gassers on all emmisions. Emmisions regs were written around gas engines, hence are biased in that direction. I have a Ram Cummins 3/4 ton quad cab, it regularily gets 21-23MPG on rural roads. I would have been happy with a 1/2 ton truck, unfortunately you had to jump to 3/4 ton to get the diesel, since 8k gvw and above are subject to different emissions regs. It's geared as a pullng truck, put some "highway gears" in it and I bet it would knock down upwards of 30.

    BTW as a truck owner, I'm getting tired of people with their little "tin cans" asking to borrow my truck all the time when they have some work to do...but that's another topic. Keeps me in pizza and beer that way.

    Bri
  24. brian_in_idaho

    brian_in_idaho New Member

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    Isn't it difficult to haul firewood in a Subaru??? (just kidding, don't get in a tizzy)
  25. DavidV

    DavidV New Member

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    2004 Dodge Ram Quad cab 4x4. 13 -15 mpg. Gotta say i love that "family car" , But I drive a "hoopdi" 95 chevy corsica back and forth to work because it is easier on gas, and keeps the miles off the truck. We have 4 vehichles and burn so much gas each day it's sick. here I am turning the thermastat down and running the wood stove but burning so much oil. Go figure.
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