taco 013 pump leak *again*

[taxidermist]

My pump on my boiler is leaking at the cartridge seal. I have had it apart a few times and everything looks good. No nicks in the seal no pits in the casting ect? Do they just sell the cartdrige seal?

Thank you,

Rob

 

[patch53]

Not that I'm aware of Rob. Does your pump have the removable cartridge? If not, I would call Taco customer service, I'm sure they would be able to help you.


Pat

 

[taxidermist]

Well here I go again! came home from work today and my pump was leaking again!! It it leaking at the body o-ring. Seems I get halfway thru the heating season and my seal goes south.



Rob

 

[in hot water]

Is it possible the pump dead heads or cavitates at some point and sees excessive pressure in the volute?. That is fairly unusual for two seals to fail, something sounds fishy? How hot does it run?

hr

 

[heaterman]

A 0013 is going to be happiest running about 20GPM @ around 18 ft of head. That kind of flow dictates pretty decent pipe or tube size. What is it connected to? To hit those numbers it would have to be hooked up to 1-1/4" or maybe even 1-1/2" pex.

For example: That circ, connected to a 1" pex loop of 200' in length is going to be at the top of it's curve developing about 25-26 ft of head and around 10GPM. It's not going to live long operating in that range.

The only way to fix it is to buy a new cartridge. The seal is not available as a separate piece.

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/0013Sht.pdf

 

[taxidermist]

A 0013 is going to be happiest running about 20GPM @ around 18 ft of head. That kind of flow dictates pretty decent pipe or tube size. What is it connected to? To hit those numbers it would have to be hooked up to 1-1/4" or maybe even 1-1/2" pex.

For example: That circ, connected to a 1" pex loop of 200' in length is going to be at the top of it's curve developing about 25-26 ft of head and around 10GPM. It's not going to live long operating in that range.

The only way to fix it is to buy a new cartridge. The seal is not available as a separate piece.

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/0013Sht.pdf

It runs fine, This was what my boiler supplier sent me so I could run a 300' loop of 1" pex from my boiler in my barn to storage in basement. I already know the 1" pex was a bad idea but we did not know that 3 years ago. I can buy the pump seal as I have bought 2 already http://www.pexsupply.com/Taco-009-0...g-O-Ring-for-Select-009-0011-0013-0014-Models When I remove the old o-ring i cant see any nicks or anything. I wonder in I can run a smaller pump or am I stuck with the 013.

Rob

 

[heaterman]

300' round trip or 300 one way?

If it's 300 total try a Grundfos 15-58 or a Wilo S 21F

The 0013 is running far past where it wants to be making about 28 ft of head and moving a little under 9 gpm. Either of the two circs I referred too will give you about 6 at about 13 ft. The Grunt a little less and the Wilo a little more. The bonus with either of these is they can easily be had for under a hundred bucks so you can afford to keep a spare on hand. The 0013 is probably about $250-300.

Under the learn something new every day category.....the Taco rep here in Mich doesn't sell the seals only for wet rotors. They have told me it's not available. Complete cartridge only.

If your loop is 600' total you have two options. keep buying pumps or parts or else dig up the 1" and get it done right. Shame on the person who recommended 1" tubeto you for your application in either the 300 or 600' scenario.

 

[taxidermist]

150' each way so 300' round trip. I too tried to talk with plumbing supply houses around here and only a few said they could get them. Will the wilo or grund direct fit into my taco flanges? As to the guy who sold me the 1" pex I am sure he sells it the same way today I even asked him many times if it would be big enough and he said "yep" to over come the head pressure we just added a bigger pump!! UGH!! I heat my storage pretty good but always looking for a better way.

Rob

 

[heaterman]

150' each way so 300' round trip. I too tried to talk with plumbing supply houses around here and only a few said they could get them. Will the wilo or grund direct fit into my taco flanges? As to the guy who sold me the 1" pex I am sure he sells it the same way today I even asked him many times if it would be big enough and he said "yep" to over come the head pressure we just added a bigger pump!! UGH!! I heat my storage pretty good but always looking for a better way.

Rob

I think the 0013 is standard flange size but i would have to look it up. If it is then either of the two I mentioned will bolt up.

 

[rkusek]

150' each way so 300' round trip. I too tried to talk with plumbing supply houses around here and only a few said they could get them. Will the wilo or grund direct fit into my taco flanges? As to the guy who sold me the 1" pex I am sure he sells it the same way today I even asked him many times if it would be big enough and he said "yep" to over come the head pressure we just added a bigger pump!! UGH!! I heat my storage pretty good but always looking for a better way.

Rob

I think the 0013 is standard flange size but i would have to look it up. If it is then either of the two I mentioned will bolt up.

Hopefully, you have some "give" on one end of these flanges if this where your pex connects. The Taco & Grundfos are about a 1/4" different in lengths I believe, at least the 007 and 15-58's are. I have one Taco 007 on the primary loop in my setup that was my first circ back when I just heated the pole barn with a simple heater tied right to the boiler loop. Everything I've bought since then is the 3 speed Grundfos 15-58s for my hybrid primary-secondary (ie. circ intensive) setup. I wish they were all 15-58s but I couldn't see not making use of the 007 I already had. Now since the 007 is connected to black iron, I will probably need to stick to the 007s or the newer Taco 3 speed version if it ever fails. FWIW, I believe the Taco 007 and Grundfos 15-58 flanges are interchangeable, though not sure about the 013. You could probably check website to see if 007 and 013 are different. I had a set of Taco green 1" flanges that I thought of reusing on a Grundfos but decided against since the local plumbing supply house sells red B&G ones for $6 apiece that match color better on the 15-58s. Wife already says I hope we never have to sell our house when she's down in the utility part of the basement and my plumbing job actually looks fairly decent.

 

[heaterman]

150' each way so 300' round trip. I too tried to talk with plumbing supply houses around here and only a few said they could get them. Will the wilo or grund direct fit into my taco flanges? As to the guy who sold me the 1" pex I am sure he sells it the same way today I even asked him many times if it would be big enough and he said "yep" to over come the head pressure we just added a bigger pump!! UGH!! I heat my storage pretty good but always looking for a better way.

Rob

I think the 0013 is standard flange size but i would have to look it up. If it is then either of the two I mentioned will bolt up.

Hopefully, you have some "give" on one end of these flanges if this where your pex connects. The Taco & Grundfos are about a 1/4" different in lengths I believe, at least the 007 and 15-58's are. I have one Taco 007 on the primary loop in my setup that was my first circ back when I just heated the pole barn with a simple heater tied right to the boiler loop. Everything I've bought since then is the 3 speed Grundfos 15-58s for my hybrid primary-secondary (ie. circ intensive) setup. I wish they were all 15-58s but I couldn't see not making use of the 007 I already had. Now since the 007 is connected to black iron, I will probably need to stick to the 007s or the newer Taco 3 speed version if it ever fails. FWIW, I believe the Taco 007 and Grundfos 15-58 flanges are interchangeable, though not sure about the 013. You could probably check website to see if 007 and 013 are different. I had a set of Taco green 1" flanges that I thought of reusing on a Grundfos but decided against since the local plumbing supply house sells red B&G ones for $6 apiece that match color better on the 15-58s. Wife already says I hope we never have to sell our house when she's down in the utility part of the basement and my plumbing job actually looks fairly decent.

They should all be 6-1/2" flange to flange.

 

[rkusek]

I didn't want to second guess a pro like Heaterman, so I check the Taco website and the data sheets show the 013 is indeed 6 1/2" so you should be able to bolt a 15-58 right in its place. The 0011s and bigger circ's are 6 1/2" and list one of the features as "universal flange to flange dimensions allow for easy replacement of other models". The 0010 and smaller (like my 007) are only 6 3/8" however and don't mention anything about "easy replacement of other models..." I guess it is only 1/8" instead of 1/4" but I remember it being a noticeable difference when I put all of that stuff together. I remember thinking that if I wanted a spare pump I would NOT be able to squeeze a 15-58 in there. Now looking at the 00R-3 (newer 3 speed Taco) it is also 6 3/8" but they call it a direct replacement for the 15-58 so I guess I'm confused. Heaterman, is it a given that one can always "make it fit" on an install when you're only talking about an 1/8"?

 

[in hot water]

you need to move about 17 gpm through that boiler to move 175,000 btu/hr. I doubt that a smaller circ will move near enough through that much tube (pressure drop) that larger pump was suggested to compensate for the small tube size. To move that much energy with a low head circ you would need 1-1/2" pipe or equivalent.

Remember 1" pex is a much smaller ID compared to copper or steel pipe.

hr

 

[taxidermist]

you need to move about 17 gpm through that boiler to move 175,000 btu/hr. I doubt that a smaller circ will move near enough through that much tube (pressure drop) that larger pump was suggested to compensate for the small tube size. To move that much energy with a low head circ you would need 1-1/2" pipe or equivalent.

Remember 1" pex is a much smaller ID compared to copper or steel pipe.


hr

Yeah a few years ago heaterman informed me I had too small of pex run from my barn to storage for the amount of btus I needed to move thru the boiler. I bought good insulated pex so I did not have to re do it like many have. But no one was talking size of pex when I installed mine. Oh well looks like I buy a few more o-rings until I can afford to do it right.

Thank you for everyones help

Rob

 

[brad068]

Little off topic and I think we may have discussed this before, but what would happen if you put in tandem to smaller circs or even one on the return like TC did?

I was thinking of this a few years ago and looking at the prices of star 16/21's and 15-58/007's, one could burn up alot of them. Wouldn't that double the head but keep flow low?

I might have to set up an experiment.

I myself did not research the pex sizing either. One loop is 350' of 1", and another is 230' of 1". 350 is on a 011 and 230 is on 26-96.

If I could go back I would kick my own ass for doing this. Luckily I have not run out of btus or burned up a pump yet!

 

[taxidermist]

Anyone know? if you can run 2 pumps?

Rob

 

[ewdudley]

Anyone know? if you can run 2 pumps?

Rob

Yes, it's in the Taco FAQs even. Any two pumps in series the pump curves add one on top of the other, pumps in parallel the pump curves add one to the right of the other.

http://www.taco-hvac.com/en/faq.html

--ewd

 

[bigburner]

We do it. I usually put a load [PL] between them, HX, hydraulic separator or what ever, may not make any difference just old habits.

 

[in hot water]

sure, in parallel would double the flow, in series almost doubles the head, a bit of pressure loss through the second series is all. Here is what it looks like in series. I like to see a short piece of pipe between them to allow any turbulance to sort out, but flange to flange is used also.

hr

 

[taxidermist]

sure, in parallel would double the flow, in series almost doubles the head, a bit of pressure loss through the second series is all. Here is what it looks like in series. I like to see a short piece of pipe between them to allow any turbulance to sort out, but flange to flange is used also.

hr

If you say I need to move 17gpm thru the boiler whats my best setup for a 300' round trip thru 1" pex? Should I be looking for gpm or a pump that pumps more head pressure? As you can tell I dont have a clue about pumps I just know I got screwed on 1" pex and would like to make my system work the best with what i have.

I run my eko 60 like a eko 40 with only 1 fan and 1 nozzle I have 1000 gal storage closed system.


Thank you,
Rob

 

[ewdudley]

sure, in parallel would double the flow, in series almost doubles the head, a bit of pressure loss through the second series is all. Here is what it looks like in series. I like to see a short piece of pipe between them to allow any turbulance to sort out, but flange to flange is used also.

hr

If you say I need to move 17gpm thru the boiler whats my best setup for a 300' round trip thru 1" pex? Should I be looking for gpm or a pump that pumps more head pressure? As you can tell I dont have a clue about pumps I just know I got screwed on 1" pex and would like to make my system work the best with what i have.

I run my eko 60 like a eko 40 with only 1 fan and 1 nozzle I have 1000 gal storage closed system.


Thank you,
Rob

Check out the pressure-drop-vs-flow-rate table in this pdf:

http://www.viega.net/xbcr/en-us/TDPF0810FostaPEX.pdf

You can see that for any given size of pipe the pressure drop per foot doesn't amount to much at low gpm, but after a certain point it's like running a Volvo 240 at Daytona: you can go from half throttle to full throttle and all that happens is it gets hotter and makes more noise with little gain in speed.

So for 17 gpm through 300 ft of 1" pex you'd see a pressure drop of 300 * 0.166 psi = 49.8 psi. So you need a pump that can deliver 17 gpm at 49.8 psi pressure drop (yikes). Or thirty Taco 007 pumps in series would also work.

But if you can live with a deltaT of 50degF, boiler output of 150,000 btu per hour, you'd only need 6 gpm or so, which would only be a pressure drop of 300 * 0.024 psi = 7.2 psi, which could be handled by two Taco 008 pumps in series.

You probably need to dig out some pump curve graphs for candidate pumps so you can see what gpm a given pump can deliver at a given pressure drop.

--ewd

 

[heaterman]

This is maybe already on here somewhere but is your storage by the EKO or at the end of the 150' run?

 

[taxidermist]

This is maybe already on here somewhere but is your storage by the EKO or at the end of the 150' run?

Its @ the end of the run

 

[taxidermist]

Here is some numbers that north woodsman did for me a few years ago....

Taxidermist,

It was my pleasure helping you out with the calculations (believe it or not, I actually enjoy doing the math !! !! )

However, I wanted to clarify one of the figures you posted:

13.6 GPM @ 77 ft. of head is not actually correct for your EKO60.

The correct number is actually 20 GPM due to your boiler being an EKO60 which is rated at 206,000 BTU/HR and not an EKO40 as I originally thought and calculated for.

206,000 / (500 x 20) =20.6 GPM

Also, below are the assumtions and calculations that I used in determining this pump sizing:

PUMP CALCULATION FOR EKO60 SYSTEM

01.17.09

QTY ITEM DESCRIPTION

348" 1" Pex 348

38" 1" Black Pipe 38

13" 1-1/2" Black Pipe 13

8 1-1/2" BP elbows x 4.03 32.24

6 1-1/2" BP tees x 2.68 16.08

6 1-1/2" ball valves x 6.50 39

2 1" Shark Bite elbows x 2.62 5.24

8 1" BP elbows x 2.62 20.96

7 1" BP tees x 1.75 12.25

2 1" Ball Valves x 1.80 3.6

1 1-1/2" Danfoss loading valve 16.4

TOTAL (Equiv. length pipe) 544.77

HL= k x c x L x (f1.75) where:

k=0.00223 (1" Pex) x 348" = .776

k=0.00036 (1.5" Pex) x 348" =.12528

k=0.0001(2" Pex) x 348"= =.0348

(notice this # drops significantly due to the larger diameter Pex, 1" dia. = .785 in2 area,

1.5" Pex =1.76 in2 area, 2" Pex =3.14 in2 area- more than double !! !! )

k=0.000845 (1" copper/black pipe?) x 38" = .032

k=0.000146 (1.5" copper/black pipe?) x 13" = .002

c=.933 (water @ 180 degree)

L = 545 (equiv. length of piping circuit)

f1.75=101.327 (based on 13.6/14 GPM desired flow rate)

f1.75=189.148 (based on 20.6/20 GPM desired flow rate)

USING 348" OF 1" PEX

HL=(.776+.032+.002) x .933 x 189.327 = 143 feet (based on 20 degree temp drop & 20.6 GPM design flow rate)

Because of the extra long length of 1" Pex the head is very high and thus not even a Taco 013 can provide 20.6 GPM at 143" of head (a 014 is rated for a max of 8 GPM at 6" of head). Even at a flow rate of less than 1 the Taco 014 has a max head of 35".

When doing the initial calculation of target flow rate (Page 1 of Taco TD10 bulletin):

F = Q/(500 xt) where:

F= flow rate

Q=rate of heat transfer (BTU/Hr)

T=temperature drop of circuit (supply temp " return temp)

F=206,000 BTU/HR/ (500 x 20) = 20.6 GPM ( the EKO 40 is rated at 206,000BTU/HR)

When looking at table 1 on page 2 of the same bulletin, it shows that a 1" Pex has a minimum flow rate of 3.8 GPM and a max flow rate of 7.5 GPM. Thus, the 1" Pex is not large enough for this application. The proper size Pex would be 2.0" which has a min flow rate of 13.4 GPM and max. flow rate of 26.8 GPM.

Running the same calculation but using 1.5" Pex vs. 1" Pex results in the following:

USING 348" OF 1.5" PEX

HL=(.12528+.032+.002) x .933 x 189.148 = 28 feet (based on 20 degree temp drop & 20.6 GPM design flow rate)

STILL QUITE A BIT OF HEAD !! !! (a Taco 013 is max. rated at 20 GPM @ 18 ft. of head, possibly a 014 might get the job done)

Running the same calculation but using 2.0" Pex vs. 1" Pex results in the following:

USING 348" OF 2.0" PEX

HL=(.0348+.032+.002) x .933 x 189.148 = 12 feet (based on 20 degree temp drop & 20.6 GPM design flow rate)

THIS IS MORE LIKE IT !! !! This scenario can be taken care of with a Taco 011 pump which is rated at 20 GPM @ 13 ft. of head (a 013 would probably be best).

I have used the data listed for copper fittings/pipe when calculating the k value of the black pipe items. I"m assuming these are pretty close to the same but will investigate this further to verify.

The bottom line is something weve all heard before:

PAY ME NOW (FOR THE LARGER PEX) OR PAY ME LATER (FOR THE ELECTRICITY OF THE SUPER LARGE PUMP THAT IS REQUIRED WITH THE SMALLER PEX AND ALSO HAVING AN IN-EFFICIENT SYSTEM FOREVER!! !! )

Warning to all - keep the Pex large when running it in long lengths !! !!

Sorry to post all the details but I figured this might clarify things.

Can someone please check out my calcuations and let me know how they look?

NWM

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

Excellent information!

So, if you are in a situation where you can do the job with 1 pump or with 2 smaller pumps, what is then the best practice?
How much disctance is recommended between the 2 pumps?