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Terrible chainsaw accident (wrist guards?)

Post in 'The Gear' started by Mandoo, Oct 30, 2008.

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  1. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    I haven't had EMT training, and my first aid training has been somewhat limited, but I've had a reasonable amount. I particularly remember the femoral artery because it's associated pressure point always gets people wierded out in any kind of first aid class - a reflection on the whole sex / moral issue thing. To be certain I had recalled my info correctly I just double checked on the location of the femoral artery, and yes it is as I recall, namely on the inside of the thigh where you need to get through a LOT of tissue to reach it (and where it's most exposed there are other things also at risk....) NOT saying it can't be hit, but that a hit to the front of the left thigh is NOT the same as a hit to the femoral, though I am NOT challenging the idea that it's a potentially life threatening injury location. (And note that I said you were in bad trouble if you DO hit the Femoral)

    Note also that I have NEVER advised skipping the essential safety gear - chaps or pants - boots (chainsaw rated, NOT just steel toed) and logger hat... I have reported that I've seen less convincing arguments for gloves and vests - and that fewer PRO'S say they wear them. I don't see how that counds as "belittled the use of PPE"

    I have also never put down the idea of training - though I don't always push it in the context of a thread like this one which is mostly about gear, not training...

    I will admit that I'm not an expert on chainsaw accident statistics, but what I have seen of them draws some significant parallels with the way motorcycle safety statistics get thrown about, and misused so I raise the same questions that arise from there...

    I don't see the reason you're complaining so much...

    Gooserider

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  2. sl7vk

    sl7vk New Member

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    I've got to disagree with this statement. Being that the majority of PPE makers are also saw makers, a bloody picture is not what you get....

    Who makes PPE? Stihl, Husqvarna, Echo, Dolmar... Labonville, and few.... independents..... Most of those are saw makers. Blood and gore doesn't sell saws.....

    I would bet that the PPE for the smaller makers is a losing prop on their budget line. But they are willing to take that loss, to offer the protection if someone should need it. Wouldn't look good for Echo to sell the saw, but not hte PPE, and have someone cut their leg off.....
  3. downeast

    downeast Guest

    You're taken with things that you throw around as gospel without basis Goose. You are on this site at least, like your buddy Elk was, an "expert", for some reason of an online persona. But when you post opinion as fact that is misinformation, even dangerous to novice or moderately experienced chainsaw users, it becomes an issue of safety. No complaint here, just concern about misinformation and malinformation. No "complaint"..... concern. Hey, we ain't talking bikes.

    Let's take your one simplistic comment about gear and training; they are part of the same for most who use chainsaws near full time or on a professional level. You need to train and know how to use tools and gear. Can you separate the firearm from the training to make you a safe and accurate handler of a firearm ? Not here, not in our background. They are part and parcel of the same thing....at least to most. No "complaint"..... concern. You need to be right, fine. But expect to take some grief about what you post when it is plain wrong.
  4. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    PPE is like the vast majority of secondar products, there are a few outfits that make most of it, with rebadging and detail changes to supply the official sellers (as one example, Elvex makes Sthil chaps, and I believe Peltor makes most of the logger helmets with sawmaker brands on them.)

    It is also worth noting that accessories are NOT necessarily a money losing proposition - Harley makes BIG bucks off all the chit they sell with their logo on it - (nearly all made by 3rd parties under license BTW) - and I've noticed both Sthil and Husky selling NON-PPE clothing with their logo all over it... (IMHO somewhat deceptively, as the non-PPE stuff was displayed next to the PPE, with no clear labeling as to which was which)

    As to "making the picture bloody" - it's called marketing 101 - the approach to sell things that are intended to increase safety is to emphasize the bad consequences of not buying...

    Look at the efforts to promote seatbelt usage - Do they show accidents where people aren't wearing them and don't get hurt? - You are told "Seatbelts save lives" - not the far more accurate "Seatbelts improve your odds, but won't always save you, and might even cause serious or fatal injuries that wouldn't occur otherwise in some accidents"

    The impression that they give with that picture of chainsaw injuries is that all the injuries listed were "serious life threatening" - I'm certain that at least SOME of them were - no question about it. But I have my doubts as to whether ALL of them were, although I don't know this for certain - which is WHY I raised the question of saying that I'd like to know. I'm quite certain that if all those dots don't represent serious injuries, the guy trying to sell me gear by waving it at me is NOT going to tell me so.

    Nobody is denying that chainsaws are dangerous, certainly I am not, and I don't think that saying so will reduce sales - the people that buy saws tend to be people that need them, and aren't going to be turned off by pictures of injuries. (Unlike the motorcycle industry where you will be hard pressed to get an industry exec to even admit that you can crash on one) You also aren't going to get any efforts to sell on the basis of "brand X saw is safer than brand Y" - so there is no downside to putting as many red dots on that picture as you possibly can - or at least picking the set of figures that gives you the worst looking scenario.

    A couple of posts previously, I got yelled at for raising the question of what is the definition of "Serious Injury" - I don't think it is at all a silly question. I think we can all agree that given that there has been an un-intended event, there is a wide range of possible results, ranging from "Do I really need a band-aid?" to "Get that man a leakproof casket..." One end of the range is clearly not a "serious injury" the other obviously is, so the question is WHERE in that range do you draw the line between "minor" and "serious" injury levels? If you are trying to make a statistical conclusion it's an important thing to ask.

    I remember a study done years ago that challenged the old saw of "you are more likely to get hurt in a motorcycle accident than a car accident" - they compared injury severity and location between unhelmeted motorcycle riders, and unseatbelted car drivers - Turns out more motorcyclists suffered injuries to their arms and legs, but the severity level was low. Car drivers had fewer total injuries, but most of theirs were to head, neck and torso, and had a higher severity.... IOW, the biker DID get hurt more often, but his injuries were less severe.

    In another case of "definitions matter" - many gun grabbers claim that large numbers of "children" getting shot is a good reason to restrict firearms... Sounds great until you dig into their "studies" and discover that they define "children" as being under the age of 25....

    To be Continued...
  5. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    When I see suspect figures being used for questionable purposes in other areas, it makes me look at ALL such claims with a degree of suspicion. I'm not saying that the chainsaw safety numbers are being "cooked" - If I did, I'd be saying so with far more emphasis! But I have my doubts and so I ASK the questions - which makes some uncomfortable...

    It is entirely possible that the folks that are making the chainsaw numbers are entirely honest, and doing the best job they can - though cynical me would surprised to see that. Given that there aren't as many political battles being fought over the topic though, it may be there is less incentive to "stretch" the numbers as much as there is in areas like motorcycle safety and firearms.

    NONE of which makes a lot of difference in regards to the question of how much and which gear to get - I think there is sufficient antecdotal evidence to back up the list I gave earlier in the thread, as to what gear seems to be most vital, and what gear is optional...

    Gooserider
  6. downeast

    downeast Guest

    You are right, correct, and your veracity will not be questioned ever again.
    You are the man.
  7. Sealcove

    Sealcove Member

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    Chainsaw safety numbers came from within the forestry/logging industry; they had nothing to do with PPE manufactures. Collection of these statistics stemmed from an industry wide desire to reduce logging related injuries and fatalities, which 10-15 years ago were still extremely high. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, training, new techniques, equipment improvements, and PPE have all played a role in drastically reducing injuries.

    If at some point I come across all of my saw training materials I will post some sources, or better yet I can scan some of the pertinent documents for all to read.
  8. crazy_dan

    crazy_dan New Member

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    wow getting pissy over somebody saying that their list would be in this order of what they do and would wear.
    I say if you want to were the PPE go for it and if you do not them you are more than welcome to.
    For the record I am a non wearer in fact I cut in tenny runners and short sleeves sometimes even shorts.
    No I do not care to hear about it and you would be wasting your time by telling me all about why I should wear PPE.
    Every time I were Steel toed boots I cut the toe open and ruin a chain, I cut in tenny runners and never get close to my foot I guess it is a subliminal thing because I really don't like cutting up brand new size 15 steel toed boots.
  9. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    You won't get chit from me - as a Libertarian, I believe in free choice, including what variety of handbasket / bucket you wish to travel in... (Ref. Grateful Dead)

    It also isn't unusual that you have problems with steel toed boots - look up "Risk Acceptance Theory" some time, there is a great deal of evidence that safety equipment of various sorts can actually cause people to act in a less safe manner - Average driving speeds go up when seat belt laws are passed as one example....

    Theory is that everybody has a preferred "level of perceived risk" in their life that they feel most comfortable at, and they will adjust their behaviour to get that level of risk in their lives - thus if you push someone into wearing / using safety gear that makes them feel like they are safer, they will take more chances / act in a riskier manner in order to get their percieved level of risk back into their "comfort zone" - In the case of a chainsaw, presumably letting the bar get closer to them and / or making riskier cuts...

    Gooserider
  10. caber

    caber New Member

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    Seems common sense is dead.
  11. downeast

    downeast Guest

    Agreed. Fine. Enclosed in Priority Mail is a Release Form for you to sign please. It states that the town, city, county, state taxpayers will not be responsible for the transport, evacuation, and E.R. care of you in the case of your chainsaw injury. You will not have access to your local EMT, and you will be unable to have any form of care. Thank you.

    FYI:
    1. Skydivers and Paratroopers use Emergency Chutes as SOP. " I don' need no stinkin' backup chute," Dan
    2. Civilian and mil choppers, commercial and private aircraft mandate safety harness' and seat belts. " Not me", Goose
    3. Firearm training and range protocol requires certain safety gear and procedures. " That's silly", Crazy Dan
    4. If you are slicing those boots with your saw, something is drastically wrong with your technique. I've NEVER heard of anyone,
    professional or otherwise, cutting their boots with their chainsaw. Protective boots are NOT to protect you from a chain.

    This thread is getting goofy. I'm getting ascared. Paging Mr. Moderator. Paging Mr. Moderator.
  12. Adios Pantalones

    Adios Pantalones Minister of Fire

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    Huh. I wear a helmet/mask/muffs combo and steel toed boots. I don't wear chaps, but I do sometimes wear pants.

    I bet I'd look good in just chaps. huh.

    I don't wear gloves at all on most occasions. My wife complains if I've been splitting wood with a maul not wearing gloves.

    Not bragging, but I have on occasion been a poster child for bad safety practice. Ask Vic99 about the hung-up tree that I cut through and it came back and almost smashed my laughing face in.

    As I get older I take it much more serious.
  13. downeast

    downeast Guest

    Wait one minute.....The Moderators are running the show ! You can't page no one ( sic ).
    It's the loonies running the asylum .
  14. Sealcove

    Sealcove Member

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    I just noticed that line as well. Why is the bar anywhere near your foot?!?! You really should consider participating a saw safety course, because based on what your are saying you are a massive accident waiting to happen. Beyond learning basic saw safety you would likely learn a load about efficient cutting and sharpening from a simple weekend class. Otherwise I hope you are well insured, because at some point your luck will run out.
  15. caber

    caber New Member

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    what I cannot understand is how anyone develops the line of reasoning that says "If I ruined steel-toed boots by hitting them with a chainsaw, the logical recourse is to put on cheap tennis shoes." Ahhhhhh.... yeah.

    And how the heck do you hit your toe with a saw? If you are doing that, you desperately need PPE to protect yourself from you.
  16. Jim41

    Jim41 Member

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    Every time I use my chain saw I am soooo careful to follow safety guidelines. This is the most dangerous hand tool there is. Always 1) wear safety geear 2) always keep your work area clear of debris, espeicailly near your feet and 3) never ever ever operate your chain saw without both feet firmly on the ground. It is a great tool that needs to be treated with the utmost respect. One mistake, one shortcut can be costly........
  17. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    YOU RANG???

    FWIW, I do make a clear distinction between two concepts....

    1. The notion that using safety gear of the appropriate sort MIGHT be a good idea (depends on the gear, and the situation) and while I might or might not make the same choice - I will NOT give anyone making a different choice chit about it...

    2. Some thug w/ a funny suit and a gun FORCING a person to use a given set of gear - which I will oppose on principle regardless of the gear involved, not because of the gear, but because I don't feel this is an appropriate area of government.

    That said, I also don't have huge problems with people operating a service of some sort requiring their customers to use gear as a condition of service (If you are a guest in a house you follow the house rules...) I'm also not all that bothered by insurance companies or others offering incentives of some sort for use.

    However for the purposes of this thread, I will encourage people to wear gear when using a saw.

    ART
  18. rickh1001

    rickh1001 New Member

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    This thread caught my attention. I have ridden motorcycles since I was 14 or so, and tour usually anywhere from 5-10K miles per year plus. When I was 16 and invincible, I never worried about crashes, until my first one or two (still have the scars). When I got serious about riding later in life, I ALWAYS wear protective gear. I literally, won't ride across the street without the routine of "boots,jacket, helmet, gloves". It just becomes second nature, and that is a Good Thing. Motorcycles teach you that it is not if you crash, but when, and when that does happen, you need to be prepared. It is a mental thing. My son motocrossed for years, then got a job in LA in the motorcycle business, and used only his bike for commuting. He also taught MRC safety training courses, and is an excellent rider. Within 6 months of working there, he had 3 accidents, none of which were his fault. One was pretty severe, but he walked away with a ground down helmet and boots, plus a shredded jacket, from a 70 mph crash with a moron cutting over into the HOV lane. But he walked away from every one, and bought a new bike afterwards. Chain saws are not that different, and it is not if it will kick back, or if you will slip on poor footing, but when. When it does, we need some safety protection. If the money goes unused for buying safety gear, then give it to our kids (along with safety training). Just my two cents.
  19. downeast

    downeast Guest

    And repeat: THE LOONIES ARE RUNNING THE ASYLUM !!!

    Gee, boys and girls, this is not some rhetorical clasroom excercise in some ideological discourse. This is real world stuff from the field. From those who do, have done, have the chops to know how to do the right thing. Period. No one telling anyone what to do. You want to be macho, want to hurt yourself, want to jump without a reserve chute, fine. BUT ( butt :lol: )--do not expect us to pay for stupidity. :red: The release form is in the mail....have you signed it yet ? :vampire:
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