The best way to shut an over-fire situation?

[Lake Girl]

sometimes you just can't fix stupid

My Hubby's 26+ year career is based on this...

 

[firefighterjake]

As a volunteer firefighter, if you were in my "catch area", I would encourage you to call the fire department and have them heading your way just in case it gets away from you...it's much easier to put out the fire if it happens to get in the walls when it's small and just confined to the area around the stove (and besides we like to drive our big red trucks with lights and sirens going and are always looking for an excuse ;-) )

If you've got it out when we arrive, we can take a look with our thermal imager and make sure that everything is good with your floor/walls/ceiling...pack up and go home.

If the issue is just in the stove, or the flue pipe connecting to the chimney we'll usually take a dry chem fire extinguisher hose, just crack the door and give it a quick squirt...if you do it right it's all drawn into the stove, up the chimney and doesn't make a mess in the house, sometimes it take a few squirts..that will usually knock the flames down enough so that we can let it cool off some then we can start pulling wood and coals out of the stove and take them outside...

If you've got a chimney fire going (go outside and look at the top of your chimney, if it's really cooking you'll have flames and thick black smoke pouring out of the chimney), then we go up on the roof and start dropping dry chem "bombs" down the chimney and that usually will snuff the flames down enough so that we drop our chains down to break up the creosote that is burning inside the chimney, then a few more dry chem bombs, then remove the burned stuff out the cleanout...

We usually always "red flag" a chimney until it gets inspected and given a clean bill of health. Depending on how long it has been burning it can ruin the chimney and can be very expensive to fix....which is why everyone should clean their chimney at least once a year...

We have a couple people in our catch area that pride themselves on having a chimney fire at least once a year and having us come out to clean their chimney for them...which really p@#ses me off since one of these times their chimney fire is going to turn into a structure fire and they're going to lose their house...and put me and my fellow firefighters at risk...sometimes you just can't fix stupid...

Like this thread . . . a lot . . . especially that last part because it is so true . . . sadly.

 

[Silenced38]

It seems to me that this was not an issue with the old air tight stove. Shut the air off the fire dies. So why don't the add an "emergency brake" to secondary burn stoves. You know PULL THIS IN AN EMERGENCY handle. To shut the air off fully.
SO the way i see it. The over-fire happens because of excess out gassing once the secondary start burning. Then the out gassing increases as the temp rises and bingo run away. So burning larger wood should burn and out gas slower and burn longer and cooler. Or am i looking at it wrong?

 

[DougA]

So burning larger wood should burn and out gas slower and burn longer and cooler

That's my experience and it makes sense. 3 cu ft of kindling will burn very hot & fast vs. 6 pcs that equal the same 3 cu ft. That's an extreme example but you get the idea. The problem for the last 2 winters for many of us has been that we're using wood that is not as dry as it should be because it's been so cold, our wood supply of dry wood gets depleted early. I've solved that problem now.

 

[bholler]

You are right, it is a possible problem. Not to make my water method sound correct but there was no 'major' steam that I saw and zero came out the stove door.

like i said you may get away with it many times but it is still very unsafe. The dangers just are not worth it. The last resort to me is a fire extinuisher water should never be an option at all

 

[Jags]

I have seen sand and dirt mentioned a few times in this thread. If using that is your inclination (not condoning or opposing in any way) - why not use a bucket of ash? Its also non-combustible and as a wood burner - readily available.

ETA - one other option that I did not see mentioned (and I have one in reserve) is a chimfex.
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...qmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_86tfrv2ps2_e

 

[Silenced38]

I have seen sand and dirt mentioned a few times in this thread. If using that is your inclination (not condoning or opposing in any way) - why not use a bucket of ash? Its also non-combustible and as a wood burner - readily available.

ETA - one other option that I did not see mentioned (and I have one in reserve) is a chimfex.
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...qmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_86tfrv2ps2_e

i have used ash before to slow a fire down. But wondered about it having an effect on secondary burn. Since the burn is happening above the wood.

 

[Jags]

Snuff the flames. Fewer flames equals less wood gas which equals less secondary burning.
Looking at it another way...reducing the oxygen getting to the fuel will slow down the burn.

 

[Babaganoosh]

It seems to me that this was not an issue with the old air tight stove. Shut the air off the fire dies. So why don't the add an "emergency brake" to secondary burn stoves. You know PULL THIS IN AN EMERGENCY handle. To shut the air off fully.
SO the way i see it. The over-fire happens because of excess out gassing once the secondary start burning. Then the out gassing increases as the temp rises and bingo run away. So burning larger wood should burn and out gas slower and burn longer and cooler. Or am i looking at it wrong?

You have to remember that when you design and sell a product that you have to idiot proof it. How many idiots a year do you think would try to shut the air down all the way to extend burn times?

 

[electrathon]

This is making more sense to me now. I have been around wood stoves all of my life and the way to shut down a stove was always to remove the air. But on a modern stove you almost can't remove the air. If there was an emergency air shut down control most people would quickly learn that the way to get the burn times that we had for the last 25 plus years would be to pull the lever part way. Now you would have a stove that burned through the night and smoked.

I have looked high and low for a small damper to put in the OAK line

A 4" sewer drain valve to a motor home. Hard mount it where the air line comes in through the wall, then run your flexy hose to the stove. You could do a full air shut down if you chose to. If you were using it as a damper the stove would smoke and polite, so don't do that.

 

[DougA]

A 4" sewer drain valve to a motor home. Hard mount it where the air line comes in through the wall, then run your flexy hose to the stove. You could do a full air shut down if you chose to. If you were using it as a damper the stove would smoke and polite, so don't do that.

Never thought about that. Basically a gate valve. Thanks

 

[electrathon]

Never thought about that. Basically a gate valve. Thanks

They are cheap and airtight. The plastic could burn, but so can the wall it would be mounted against.

 

[jharkin]

First off assuming overfiremeans you have tried turning down the air inlet and closing any dampers and blocking off air inlets with no luck.

I agree with everyone else, I would never throw water in there... Besides the steam risk if you hit hot iron/steel with cold water you run the risk of warping or cracking a plate.

Better option is the sand mentioned, or throw a few shovels from your ash bucket on the fire - Ive done that.

I'm with Bart also on opening the door - it DOES work. Ive done it and it saved my butt. Don't knock it till you try. I know that it probably feels like opening the air control wide but its very different. With the door wide the volume of air the draft will suck up the chimney is many orders of magnitude greater than the usual intake air. Most of that air will just get pulled straight up the flue without passing through the fire and all that 70F room air dilutes the hot smoke bringing the temp down fast. Another thing it will do if you have a tube stove is remove the pressure differential in the firebox that draws air in through your burn tubes, which I believe should kill off the secondaries.

Another thought - Cat stove owners facing a catalyst temp overfire should open your bypass to shut down the cat and send flue gases right up the stack. This works like a charm as well, but in a cat stove can cause a stack temp spike so you might have to follow up with the open door trick. Sometimes just bypassing the cat long enough to bring the temps down to the normal zone and re-engage does the trick.


I'm a VC owner, so Ive had to do it all... Take my word for it some combination of these tricks always works

 

[bholler]

A 4" sewer drain valve to a motor home. Hard mount it where the air line comes in through the wall, then run your flexy hose to the stove. You could do a full air shut down if you chose to. If you were using it as a damper the stove would smoke and polite, so don't do that.

This is asuming that the port in the stove for the oak is actually sealed and it cant draw air from elsewhere Many are not sealed at all so blocking the oak in those cases would not change much. But on some stoves it would work very well

 

[WES999]

As someone posted previously, If you can close off the secondary air inlet( may not be possible on every stove) and the primary inlet the the fire will
die out pretty quickly and the temps will go down.

I added a control to my stove so I can shut down the secondary air if necessary.

 

[Stinkpickle]

Yeah, i don't think i would ever buy a stove that had a seconary intake i couldn't get to.

 

[bholler]

Yeah, i don't think i would ever buy a stove that had a seconary intake i couldn't get to.

you cant on most and it is very rarely an issue

 

[DanCorcoran]

My secondary air intake is underneath the rear of the stove. With a cold stove, I made an aluminum foil plug that fills the 2" x 3" hole. I have a mirror on the floor behind the stove, so I can see up underneath. I practice stuffing the plug in the hole, wearing my welder's gloves that I use for loading wood. I also have a bucket of sand sitting next to the stove. I think I'm covered...

For a chimney fire, I'll just grab the bag of marshmallows by the front door and run outside (the fire department is at least 20 minutes away).

 

[Silenced38]

So is it worth in stalling a standard damper in the pipe. Just as an Emergence brake if needed? How much will it effect normal draft? In my case it would not be used except in an over fire situation or heaven forbid a chimney fire. I didnt in stall one originally so i could push the chimney brush all the way to the top of the stove. If i installed one how close to the top of the stove can i put it? Thanks for all the good info.
Charles

 

[firefighterjake]

I've never had an over fire situation, but I have had the temp creeping up higher than I like to see ...,typically from some bone head move on my part such as loading the stove too early or filling it to the gills with the primo stuff.

I've had pretty good luck using a small sheet of aluminum foil partly covering the secondary air inlet ...the restricted air makes for some interesting effects though ... have seen very lazy violet flames for a brief time until the temp lowers enough and the firebox "cools" down.

 

[electrathon]

I have had chimney fires before, known others who have had chimney fires. Have never seen an overheat that I was fearful of in the firebox of a stove, except for the fear that it would move up into a chimney fire. Is this a cataleptic stove issue?

 

[firefighterjake]

Not so much a "cataleptic" stove issue I think as it is the case of more folks being aware of just how hot the fire is with many folks using not only stove pipe thermos but also stove thermometers. Any stove can over fire ...

 

[Spletz]

Stupid question I suppose, but not to ask would be worse.

With an insert and no view of the stove pipe, how would I know if I've over-fired? I have a IR thermometer and top center of the insert on the exterior just above the fan outlet might reach 500deg during a very stout burn.

Thanks.

 

[DougA]

Stupid question I suppose, but not to ask would be worse.
With an insert and no view of the stove pipe, how would I know if I've over-fired? I have a IR thermometer and top center of the insert on the exterior just above the fan outlet might reach 500deg during a very stout burn.
Thanks.

That's not a stupid question. I posted earlier that I suspect many people have overfires and don't even know it. firfighterjake said it best, most folks are not aware of how hot their fire is without a stove pipe thermometer. So, in your case, you can buy and install one if you want. There are a few options but my choice is here: http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17&products_id=292
For $70 you can see the temps from across the room and get a loud alarm when the temps exceed the limit you set it at.

An IR gun or stove top thermometer will tell you what is going on with your stove, the flue thermometer tells you what's going on with the fire. Two different things since the stove will react much slower than the flue.

The bottom line is that if you burn dry wood, keep your chimney clean and are careful, you really shouldn't need a flue thermometer IMHO. There are some of us that occasionally make dumb mistakes that have their butt saved by the alarm. The rest just call 911 when the neighbor sees flames coming out of your chimney.

 

[kd460]

Plastic zip lock baggies filled with sand. Just toss them in to slow things down. KD