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The end of petroleum dominance

Post in 'The Green Room' started by Dune, Aug 18, 2012.

  1. Dune

    Dune Minister of Fire

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    A group of Korean scientists, working at the Ulsan National Institute of Science and Technology (UNIST), have developed a fast-charge lithium-ion battery that can be recharged 30 to 120 times faster than conventional li-ion batteries. The team believes it can build a battery pack for electric vehicles that can be fully charged in less than a minute.
    http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...ery-that-charges-120-times-faster-than-normal

    With 300 mile range and almost instant recharging, petroleum powered cars will cease to make sense.

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  2. BoilerMan

    BoilerMan Minister of Fire

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    Agreed, however how do we generate electricity in this country? They are taking most of the hydro off-line in my part of the country and now import electricity from Canada, which is hydro produced. Don't get me wrong though, the electric car will benifit from seriously fast charging long lasting batteries.

    TS
  3. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    I like the final question, "To charge a 56KW battery in less than a minute would take an awful lot of power and some really thick cables, right?" Ah, yeah.
    Seasoned Oak likes this.
  4. Frozen Canuck

    Frozen Canuck Minister of Fire

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    Yes I think we are going to have be satisfied with slower charge times.
    Unles of course you are satisfied with line voltage like I have seen some welders use in Mexico.
    Not sure how one contols or meters that though! :eek:
  5. Frozen Canuck

    Frozen Canuck Minister of Fire

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    On the upside every improvement in battery technology does bring us closer.
  6. Dune

    Dune Minister of Fire

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    Right, one minute is clearly not practical, but how about 7-10 minutes?
  7. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    It's certainly possible, though not for the current charger infrastructure that is going in on our highways. I think the best they can do is 32 amps. But 10 minutes would be enough for a good partial charge to get one another 50 miles down the road. Both the vehicle and the charging station would need to be set up for higher voltage and amperage charging. These are often 460VAC 3 phase setups not seen in homes. Alternatively in areas that have adopted A Better Place's standard, the battery pack would be swapped out for a freshly charged one. That takes a bit over a minute and the process is similar to a drive-thru car wash.
  8. Dune

    Dune Minister of Fire

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    Admittedly the infrastructure for fast charging is not in place everywhere, however, I think it would be relatively simple and quick to install if the demand appeared, certainly more so than a hydrogen infrastructure for example. The beauty with high voltage 3-phase of course being that the wires are small (cheaper) even for higher amps than lower voltage single phase.

    The better place system requires that all the cars have the same battery pack, I presume. How much is that being utilized now, other than in Israel?
  9. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    In urban areas it should be fairly straight forward. In interstate rest areas, not so easy, but again one doesn't always need a full charge instantly.

    The better place project is moving along. It takes time to set up standards and then have vehicles manufactured to that standard. The battery pack doesn't have to be identical. It just needs to meet the standard for size, attachment, connectors, etc.. That way technology can progress without obsoleting the vehicle. Israel is fully committed, but the project is being adopted in Denmark, Japan, Australia and Hawaii too. It makes good sense to adopt it for fleet vehicles and taxis to start with.
  10. btuser

    btuser Minister of Fire

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    I think we're (the proverbial) 20 years away from the common nano-battery. Until then people could simply change their attitudes/habits to get around what it takes to charge their batteries. Right now a battery will give you 100 miles (give or take, heat and defroster and AC running) and that's fine for the vast majority of people. If you're a OTR trucker, you won't be able to make it 14hrs, fake your log book and turn around for the return trip, but a few stops every 4-6 hours will save you A LOT of money vs pouring diesel into your tank while you keep everyone else safe. If you're outside sales you may have to take a 2 hr lunch at the charging station while you make some calls and catch up on email. Gas stations converted to charging stations with wifi would be more than enough for me to waste an hour, or leave an hour early from work and finish up.

    I can see us switching to the siesta time schedule quite easily.
  11. Jags

    Jags Moderate Moderator Staff Member

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    I am not sure why mega amp charging stations appear so daunting. A bank of large capacitors located in the brick building next to the station could be at a constant charge and when a car pulls up, dumps. So it takes 7 minutes of line power to charge the caps back up - so what - it takes 10 minutes for the driver in front of you to fuel and get out of the way, now.
    Dune likes this.
  12. btuser

    btuser Minister of Fire

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    And you wouldn't have to fill the tanks every few days. Mega-giantic solar setups and push the sunshine North.
  13. Jags

    Jags Moderate Moderator Staff Member

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    I think you WILL see a solar revolution if (when) electric cars go mainstream. I have an acre or two I am willing to donate to the cause.
  14. Flatbedford

    Flatbedford Minister of Fire

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    This stuff is pretty cool. It's looking like it will happen.
  15. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Look at an average filling station in the city. There can be 4-6 vehicles filling up every 5 minutes in a busy station. That's a lot of amps.
  16. Flatbedford

    Flatbedford Minister of Fire

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    Somebody (actually a bunch of people) figured out how to get large quantities of gasoline to station all over and built the infrastructure to do so. I imagine that once the demand is there the infrastructure will come without much trouble. There will be money to be made in it.
  17. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Actually it will take a whole lot of infrastructure to make it work. Local power companies are pretty concerned about a mass migration. The grid and generating capacity is pretty close to max in many regions. Distributing the load via overnight charging is preferable right now. It may be slower, but what else is the car going to do while you sleep? And how much do you invest if hydrogen is the next solution?
  18. Seasoned Oak

    Seasoned Oak Minister of Fire

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    I see these type stories every month or so ,seems you never hear about the same concept again.
  19. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    There's a big jump from the lab to scaled up production. That takes research, testing and time. A big company like Ford or Toyota is going to be very conservative about the battery they supply with the car. It has to last a long time and be very safe. But I do see incremental changes starting to show up in motors and batteries. Nissan is claiming to have improved range by 25% in the 2013 Leaf via motor and battery improvements. That's a respectable increase.
  20. BoilerMan

    BoilerMan Minister of Fire

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    It is the heat and A/C that is currently (no pun intended) killing the electric/hybrid concept in my neck of the woods. Much better suited for city stop/go traffic, but A/C again......... The grid is pretty much at max capacity now, as we all know brown-outs are are a sign of overloading with mass air conditioning. The idea sounds good, but there are still many hurdles to overcome, just as there were with the "horseless carrage". Our world is built around oil, and a switch will be difficult to say the least, anyone remember when we tried to go metric in the 70s? LOL

    TS
  21. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    It's ironic that this is an issue in your neck of the woods. I would think that is only a problem for a few weeks. It seems that the bigger problem would be battery capacity in the deep cold of winter.
  22. Dune

    Dune Minister of Fire

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    I think overnight charging will always be preferable. The vast majority of cars are parked at home overnight, and charging at night helps the electric companies by balancing their loads better.
    Of course, many could be encouraged to continue charging at night with off peak metering.
    The need for fast charging will not even be an issue for most drivers anyway, since they drive less per day than even
    present day batteries are capable of.
  23. Seasoned Oak

    Seasoned Oak Minister of Fire

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    One train of thought is to allow (for a price ) power companies to tap into unused battery capacity, as per the days your electric car sets in your garage unused, to satisfy peak loads during the day. Not sure if its a good idea cuz it will cost you 1 charge cycle. Wear and tear.
  24. Jags

    Jags Moderate Moderator Staff Member

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    The one problem that I have with this is wanting to jump in and go and not knowing if it is fully charged or not. I don't want somebody draining that sucker when they don't know my schedule.
  25. Seasoned Oak

    Seasoned Oak Minister of Fire

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    The cars owner, not the electric company would make the decision to make the cars capacity available to the grid. Might work better with old end of life volt/leaf batteries that are not actually in a car.

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