The Great Greenwood Smokeout

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KingM

New Member
Jan 31, 2010
10
Vermont
So my Greenwood 100 is down yet again. I've burned a total of about 8 cords of wood since it got up and running last winter and have cleaned the creosote twice and installed a draft inducer. Each time I've done something, the smoking has gotten better and it seems to be running well but now there's just not enough draft/fresh air to keep it from smoking.

I had a licensed contractor install it, the chimney seems to be what it's supposed to be and it was working fine at one point, but no longer. When I open the door you can see there's not enough fresh air, as the fire is in a starved state, yet the vents are clear enough. It got so smoky today while I tried to let it burn out that my CO monitor kept going off. (Yes, I took precautionary measures.)

Has anyone else had this sort of problem? Given that I have a draft inducer and the chimney is clear of blockage and it was working at one time, I can only surmise that it must be something internal. I saw on a complaint site for the Greenwood that the owner has to remove the rear boiler plate manifold for cleaning or the boiler will start smoking. But given that I've only run it for a total of about 3 months, it's hard to believe that I'd already need to take such a drastic step.
 
There is a possibility that your pressure vessel in back is plugged up enough to restrict the draw from the flue. Is there any way for you to look thru the flue opening to see if you have any blockage there? I have installed an inspection hole in mine so I can check occasionally.
 
Jesse said:
There is a possibility that your pressure vessel in back is plugged up enough to restrict the draw from the flue. Is there any way for you to look thru the flue opening to see if you have any blockage there? I have installed an inspection hole in mine so I can check occasionally.

I'm running it as an open system with a tank on top. Or am I misunderstanding?
 
You have a Greenwood that looks similar to my avatar correct?
 
Ten to one, I'll bet you are plugged tight in the back. When that happens you won't get much of a fire and very poor heat output. Good luck with taking it apart and cleaning it . Hope its not installed in your house cause its a real pain and awful sooty and black. I use all kinds of scrapers to clean it up. You will probably need new insulation to put it back together again. It will choke up your shop vac pretty good too. Good luck, I need to clean mine again also, just can't get excited about doing th the job from h--- yet, mines not completely choked again. I need to get more insulation before I rip it apart again. Its not a job for the weak of heart.
 
Welcome Aboard!

Just so we are clear on the problem you are experiancing:

When the damper is open, the water is between 170-190, you open the load door, can you see all 4 air tube openings? The entire openings, not just the top or the top half. If these tubes get blocked in any way (ash, compacted ash chunks, etc) the GW will burn air-starved.

Also, tell us more about your setup. How has it been burning? What wood are you using?

Jimbo

KingM said:
When I open the door you can see there's not enough fresh air, as the fire is in a starved state, yet the vents are clear enough. It got so smoky today while I tried to let it burn out that my CO monitor kept going off. (Yes, I took precautionary measures.)

You let it burn with the load door open??? :roll:
 
@Jessie - More or less. I have the expansion tank on top, though.

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
Welcome Aboard!

When the damper is open, the water is between 170-190, you open the load door, can you see all 4 air tube openings? The entire openings, not just the top or the top half. If these tubes get blocked in any way (ash, compacted ash chunks, etc) the GW will burn air-starved.

Yes, they look pretty clear.

Also, tell us more about your setup. How has it been burning? What wood are you using?

I started trying to get the damn thing in the early summer of 2008, when I saw my oil company's pre-buy "offer." It took most of the summer and fall just to get it permitted, as I own an inn and it is a commercial operation. I also had a very slow plumber. The upshot it didn't get installed until March. I ran it with the initial setup for about three weeks and it seemed to work just fine.

There was a fair amount of creosote to deal with already, though. This was the first sign I had that things were not going to run smoothly. I cleaned it again when it started to smoke just before Christmas (I fired it up the first of December), but this didn't help. I then installed a draft inducer, which solved the problem for about a week before the chimney started to smoke into the basement again. I taped off the seems on the chimney, which again solved the problem for about a week before it started to smoke yet again.

I've learned that the first bad sign is when I go down in the morning and there's a suspicious amount of coals still live at the bottom. That means that I have about 24 hours before it starts to smoke.

There is a basement that runs the length of the inn where I stacked about 14 cords of wood. The boiler is on a cement pad midway down the inn. The wood is mixed hardwoods. Most of this wood is pretty dry by now, with only about four cords being stacked this last summer. I initially had split wood, but most of what I have now is rounds, which I have been mixing with splits.

KingM said:
When I open the door you can see there's not enough fresh air, as the fire is in a starved state, yet the vents are clear enough. It got so smoky today while I tried to let it burn out that my CO monitor kept going off. (Yes, I took precautionary measures.)

You let it burn with the load door open??? :roll:

No, the door was closed, but the draft was so poor that smoke was puffing out through the draft inducer and leaking from every seam of interior portion of the chimney. I opened it at one time to figure out what the hell was going on and the wood was sitting there smoldering. It burst into flames as soon as the fresh air reached it.

Given how progressive improvements to the draft would work for a bit, then stop working, I can only conclude that there's a blockage internal to the unit that has grown progressively worse until it overwhelms whatever new measure I have implemented. When I talked to my Greenwood dealer prior to the draft inducer installation he was sure there couldn't be any internal problem. Yet apparently the guy has run one himself for a couple of years, so I would think he would know better.
 
muleman51 said:
Ten to one, I'll bet you are plugged tight in the back. When that happens you won't get much of a fire and very poor heat output. Good luck with taking it apart and cleaning it . Hope its not installed in your house cause its a real pain and awful sooty and black. I use all kinds of scrapers to clean it up. You will probably need new insulation to put it back together again. It will choke up your shop vac pretty good too. Good luck, I need to clean mine again also, just can't get excited about doing th the job from h--- yet, mines not completely choked again. I need to get more insulation before I rip it apart again. Its not a job for the weak of heart.

I'm coming to this reluctant conclusion. The dismantling of the chimney itself was a horrid job, I can't imagine what removing the rear manifold is going to be like. First I have to dismantle the chimney and I'll have to disconnect some electric stuff too. I can't imagine having to do this every year, clean the chimney twice a year, plus all the work of stacking and loading wood. No wonder everyone switched from wood heat to oil back in the day.

I wonder how many Greenwoods have become big, green, expensive sculptures in people's basements.
 
KingM said:
No, the door was closed, but the draft was so poor that smoke was puffing out through the draft inducer and leaking from every seam of interior portion of the chimney. I opened it at one time to figure out what the hell was going on and the wood was sitting there smoldering. It burst into flames as soon as the fresh air reached it.

If the damper was open, yet the fire burst into flames when you open the oad door, I would verify the fresh air inlet first. Go to the back of the unit and eyeball down each of the four tubes. You should NOT see ANY ash. You shoud see a round, laying E/W.

I can honestly say I have never seen my GW puff smoke out the pipe seems, but my unit is outside so I might not notice it if it did anyway.

Tell us about the draft. What doed it measure? Why did you put the draft-inducing fan on?

Jimbo

KingM said:
I wonder how many Greenwoods have become big, green, expensive sculptures in people's basements.

I know it's a bit late, but . . . a basement is a really bad place for a GreenWood.
 
If you have smoke coming out of the chimney seams, I would think that indicates that the chimney is plugged, or partially plugged ABOVE that point, restrictly the smoke from exiting the chimney properly. I'm assuming when you say chimney you are referring to the vertical chimney, not something on the stove?

When I first moved into my home, the guy who lived here had on old wood boiler in the basement that he used to run very slowly. It smoldered most of the time. Two weeks after we moved in a big chunk of creosote fall off the inside of the chimney and lodged sideways. Smoke started pouring back into the basement. That was the last time we used that stove. Sounds to me like you got something obstructing your chimney.

Pat
 
patch53 said:
If you have smoke coming out of the chimney seams, I would think that indicates that the chimney is plugged, or partially plugged ABOVE that point, restrictly the smoke from exiting the chimney properly. I'm assuming when you say chimney you are referring to the vertical chimney, not something on the stove?

When I first moved into my home, the guy who lived here had on old wood boiler in the basement that he used to run very slowly. It smoldered most of the time. Two weeks after we moved in a big chunk of creosote fall off the inside of the chimney and lodged sideways. Smoke started pouring back into the basement. That was the last time we used that stove. Sounds to me like you got something obstructing your chimney.

Pat

That's what I would have thought, but I ran the brush all the way to the top of the chimney and only brought down creosote. There was more than I would have expected after just a few weeks, but it was in no way blocked. And it didn't help matters anyway.

The other thing is that the smoke pressure was great enough that there was actually smoke leaking around the door and seems of the Greenwood itself. Smoke was still coming out the top of the chimney.

I know it’s a bit late, but . . . a basement is a really bad place for a GreenWood.

Yes, I have learned that lesson at great cost and effort. The dealer took one look at my basement and proclaimed it a great place for a Greenwood. Live and learn, I suppose.
 
Thats strange, because I don't see any way you could have smoke coming from the seams of your chimney without something blocking it from above . There is no way the smoke would come out of those seams if the obstruction was below it, unless perhaps your chimney is too low and your getting a downdraft from a roof or another building outside.

How high is the chimney ? It needs to be several feet higher than the highest point on your roof, and it also should be 20-30 feet away, at a minimum, from another structure if that structure is taller than your chimney.

Pat
 
patch53 said:
Thats strange, because I don't see any way you could have smoke coming from the seams of your chimney without something blocking it from above . There is no way the smoke would come out of those seams if the obstruction was below it, unless perhaps your chimney is too low and your getting a downdraft from a roof or another building outside.

How high is the chimney ? It needs to be several feet higher than the highest point on your roof, and it also should be 20-30 feet away, at a minimum, from another structure if that structure is taller than your chimney.

Pat

Yes, the chimney is high enough. I had a licensed contractor do the installation and we went over all these things when we were installing. And this doesn't just happen when starting a fire, when the chimney would be cold, it happens when the chimney is hot enough that you'd think it would be going up without a problem. Also, remember that it was initially working just fine and then was working fine again after the draft inducer was installed. This implies that there is a progressive block. The inducer overcame whatever the partial block was but then it got worse until it failed again.

I literally ran the brush to the top of the exterior portion of the chimney until it hit the cap and I could see soot popping out the top. I also took the interior segments 100% apart and cleaned them. I can't see how there could be a blockage, given all of that.
 
Cap? If its legal where you are, I would try it without the cap. I think most gasification boilers are not supposed to used with a cap. I know my Seton does not have a cap and it is strongly not reccomended. Perhaps the cap is getting plugged around the edges and causing the smoke to back up?

Pat
 
I could be wrong, but I think you're having a "huffing" problem. Does it sound like a steam engine? When I crack my ash door while its huffing, the fire will really take off and my draft inducer fan will pick up a little speed.
 
The draft inducer helped at first, but now doesn't seem to make a difference. It is connected directly, so there's no way to turn it on and off. If the vent is open, it's on.

And yes, it does have a huffing sound, but it didn't always do that. The fire picks up, but only when the door is open and you really don't want to do that because if smoke is leaking out the pipe, it will serious pour out when the door is open and when it's closed, the fire dies right down again.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on the chimney cap idea? Could a different kind of cap or a T-bar type opening at the top help?
 
KingM said:
The draft inducer helped at first, but now doesn't seem to make a difference. It is connected directly, so there's no way to turn it on and off. If the vent is open, it's on.

And yes, it does have a huffing sound, but it didn't always do that. The fire picks up, but only when the door is open and you really don't want to do that because if smoke is leaking out the pipe, it will serious pour out when the door is open and when it's closed, the fire dies right down again.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on the chimney cap idea? Could a different kind of cap or a T-bar type opening at the top help?

Is there any way you could try it without the cap? Otherwise can you look up around the cap and see if there is ample air space for the smoke to easily get out under the cap.

What kind of chimney are you using?

Removing the cap would more than likely improve your draft significantly.

Pat
 
Take the stove pipe off the back of the GW and look in both directions, any fly ash? If not, which I doubt since every GW I've seen with a draft inducer has some, use a mirror and look up the back with the front door open to see if it is clear all the way up. Something is slowing down air flow. Figure this out and you will be happy. GW's are heat monsters when working.
 
It sounds like something is restricting your draft. Is your basement really tight, the wood stove at my cabin will not work without a window open. Just a thought. My GW smokes when I 1st put wood in, once the paper on the birch burns off I can open the door with no smoke.
Doug
 
Did you measure the draft??

I'll go out on a limb and assume you put the DIFan in because some representative of GW told you too because you were groan!n' of smoke when opening the door. Remove the fan and measure draft. Since the GW in in your basement I assume you have at least 20' of Chimney. I wou;d think that would be more than enough to get draft.

Can you post a pic of the back of the GW which shows us your stove pipe configuration?

The GW may 'huff' when the refractory is not up to temp and you put too much surface area into the unit. This can be mitigated by cracking the load door while you keep an eyeball on it. The huffing should cease within a few minutes. The GW should not'huff' when the refractory is up to temp and you load appropriatly a/k/a maximize the mass-to-surface area ratio.

Not being there to see your operation, I would recommend let the fire go out, remove the stove pipe, remove the ash and creosote you can get at, yank the DIFan, inspect the chimney, measure draft, then fire up and load appropriatly.

More questions . . .

What size stove pipe and chimney are you using?
How many 90's?
What wood are you using?
How do you decide when to reload?
Does it ever get up to operating temp and the damper close?
 
ISeeDeadBTUs said:
Did you measure the draft??

I'll go out on a limb and assume you put the DIFan in because some representative of GW told you too because you were groan!n' of smoke when opening the door.

No, it was smoking when it was fully closed. The smoke literally leaks out the factory installed joints of the chimney (not the connecting joints, which were smoking terribly, but I taped them) and even at times out the seams of the GW itself. The problem is not a loading problem. It doesn't matter if there is one piece of wood or ten, it smokes when closed, puffing right out the side of the draft inducer. There's a column of smoke that isn't rising up the chimney and is under such pressure that it's coming out joints that should be practically airtight.

But again, this wasn't initially a problem; whatever is causing the blockage/problem did not initially exist, it got worse. Something has changed, progressively, for the worse.

The problem can't be a problem with the setup or usage, since this has not changed, other than the addition of a draft inducer. Either people are right about the cap being clogged or there is something clogged internally.

Does it ever get up to operating temp and the damper close?

Yes, but that eventually stopped after each modification/fix to increase the draft. Right now, the boiler is literally not usable if I don't want to die from CO poisoning and smoke inhalation. I can't fire up the boiler again until I solve the problem.
 
What is the water temp reading on the unit? Is it keeping up w the demand for heat? I am kinda new to the GW's as I just put mine in last year. Did the install myself. Had issues that drive me nuts at times and question myself over and over. I just keep plugging away at it though. I have not had an issue like the one you describe. Hate to say it but back to basics. Does the draft door open fully when the water temp drops? did you check the pipe directly out the back ot he unit? Have seen pics with that pipe half plugged or better. Seems like chimney height is not a prob to me. keep updating us as to how you are doing
 
I would say that you might have a blockage on the vertical part of your pressure vessel ( back ) and that would cause your boiler to act that way, that would not explain the chimney smoke. Here is a section view of the boiler if you haven't already seen one. What do the visible parts of your vessel look like, plugged at all with a white ashy build up?
 

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I would take the chimney cap off and try it again. It seems to me the only way you get that much back pressure coming out of your chimney seams is from an obstruction up above. If there was no obstruction from above you would not get that smoke coming out of those seams, unless you had some downdraft on your chimney, which you said wasn't the case. I wouldn't doubt if that chimney cap is sooted up and restricting your exhaust flow.

Pat
 
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