The ol' open the ash pan trick...Ney or Yeah?

[Soadrocks]

Veterans...

When I'm loading the big logs into the Jotul Castine, is it ever okay to just open the ash pan door for a few seconds to get the fire going good? Is it so bad? Can it really damage the integrity of the stove? I've done it a few times, for no more than like 4 seconds and to clean the ash pan. I know the manual says you should never do it (because it can cause an overfire), but I monitor it very closely.

Isn't it similar to running EUR style?

Let me hear your thoughts, please.

 

[jtp10181]

You would have to leave it open for a while to overfire. A few seconds wont hurt anything.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

You would have to leave it open for a while to overfire. A few seconds wont hurt anything.

Ayup.


Matt

 

[8nrider]

have a soapstone stove do it all the time works great wife say no no no

 

[kevinwburke]

Been warned against it....but I do it for a few minuyes to get the stove cranked....did it all the time wil my olf 3CB with no problem...just dont forget it.

 

[begreen]

seconds maybe, minutes no. the real worry is not overfire, it is hitting the cast iron ash grate and base frame with sudden forge-like temps. This can crack components and lead to expensive repairs. Leave the door ajar slightly instead.

 

[myzamboni]

I do it for seconds. My safety is I make myself hold the ashpan door handle the whole time. I don't want to let go, get careless and walk away and become distracted. Plus, this means I am in a squat position and don't want to be that way for very long.

 

[rkymtnoffgrid]

Anyone have a stove that has a configuration where an ir temp gun can hit the grate while doing this? I would think the rush of incomming cold air would cool the grate perhaps countering the effect of the forge on the actual grate. Oh yea, the stove is going to get really hot, you bet your britches, but if the air control is totally shut down and the only incomming air is from under the grate, would it be focused on the grate or just above it? The reason I say this is because I have overfired my Dutchwest in this fasion out of ignorance for 3 years. I have gotten the top of the stove a very mild red-hot, (I just didn't know I wasnt supposed to do this) Over the years I have damaged it and now have cracks and warps in the bypass plate, and upper right and left of the side door. However, the bottom of the stove, the ash grate, etc, is as straight and intact as the day I bought it. I would like to see what the actual temps are on the ash grate when doing this, I would think that the danger is for overfire and excessive heat toward the top and outlet of the stove. In fact, looking back, if I would have only paid attention to the stove temps in normal recommened fashion, (a flue thermo) and never exceeded that, I don't think my stove would have had any damage. But here is the fact, my stove is damaged because I operated it expressly with the ash door open, it's so much easier from a manufactures standpoint to say "never do this"...I am the example...There are dangers with it, I don't know if its the ash grate that you necessarly have to worry about. Get an IR Gun, find out, then post, I'm definatly curious.

 

[kevinwburke]

My installer told me to never use the ash door (Jotul500) as he has seen the stoves damaged and Jotul will not cover the warping of the grates etc. (and still I do it...what is wrong with me.)

 

[pmac]

One more opinion.... I have the same stove (Castine) and will occasionally have a small coal bed in the morning and will use the ash pan BRIEFLY to get things going faster. I like myzamboni's advice - don't let go of the door until it's shut again. I made that mistake once, got distracted for longer than I should have, won't do it again....

 

[Jags]

Have you ever heard of "flashback". It can happen. Trust me, it can happen. And I will bet the ash pan door was open for no more than 45 seconds. It'll scare the hell out of you and truly convince you to never do it again.

 

[jharkin]

VC Encore here...

I open the ash door while starting up occasionally to get it going - seems ok. Lately I use the front door more often as you have to be careful on the VC to get that ash pan to seal right when you latch it.

Once I opened it to dump ashes with a full hot load of coals in the stove and bypass open. The results was iin literally 10 seconds flames were roaring out of the coal bed like a blacksmiths forge and the stove started to make this suprisingly loud rumble like a freight train was driving through it. Scared the crap outta me.

Now I only dump ashes after first raking the coals to the sides of the firebox so they wont get a direct hit of air from below.

 

[Battenkiller]

Anyone have a stove that has a configuration where an ir temp gun can hit the grate while doing this? I would think the rush of incomming cold air would cool the grate perhaps countering the effect of the forge on the actual grate. Oh yea, the stove is going to get really hot, you bet your britches, but if the air control is totally shut down and the only incomming air is from under the grate, would it be focused on the grate or just above it? The reason I say this is because I have overfired my Dutchwest in this fasion out of ignorance for 3 years. I have gotten the top of the stove a very mild red-hot, (I just didn't know I wasnt supposed to do this) Over the years I have damaged it and now have cracks and warps in the bypass plate, and upper right and left of the side door. However, the bottom of the stove, the ash grate, etc, is as straight and intact as the day I bought it. I would like to see what the actual temps are on the ash grate when doing this, I would think that the danger is for overfire and excessive heat toward the top and outlet of the stove. In fact, looking back, if I would have only paid attention to the stove temps in normal recommened fashion, (a flue thermo) and never exceeded that, I don't think my stove would have had any damage. But here is the fact, my stove is damaged because I operated it expressly with the ash door open, it's so much easier from a manufactures standpoint to say "never do this"...I am the example...There are dangers with it, I don't know if its the ash grate that you necessarly have to worry about. Get an IR Gun, find out, then post, I'm definatly curious.

Incoming air in a forge has a definite cooling effect on the tuyere and the intake grate on the bottom. Otherwise, it would erode away pretty fast in the intense 2000ºF+ heat. I made my forge years ago, and the only damage to the grate after hundreds of intense fires is from rust when I forget and leave it uncovered. Pretty hard to measure the temp inside a forge, but next time I fire it up I'll give it a try.

For the record, most consumer grade IRs only go up to about 900º or so, some only up into the 600º range. Mine goes to 1400ºF, and during a normal burn, some internal parts max it out. I can assure you that internal temps would have to get hotter than 900º in order to damage those parts.

For the record, my stove hits scary high temps low down on the doors and right side (outlet in horizontal burn mode is on the bottom right), much hotter than I can possibly get on the stove top, even when running it in the damper open position. My stove seems to be built backwards from most stoves I read about here, with the intake along the back left and also across the front left side. Stove top temps aren't more than an indicator for me, and even then, I found that they don't really tell me that much. I get hot spots at different locations, at different times in the burn, with different woods and different charges, etc. The IR info is very intriguing.

 

[Corey]

Guess all stoves are different, but I've left mine open for quite a long time on many occasions...ie 1/2 hour or longer and never noticed anything bad. Sometimes just to burn up excess coals, sometimes to get the fire roaring good, once when I needed to forge a piece of iron and used it as a mini coal forge, and once when I wanted to test melting some aluminum. The cool air coming in seems to keep the cast iron ash grate at a moderate temperature, plus the real heat doesn't develop until you're in/on top of the coal bed.

It's probably not the most efficient way to burn. The air should channel through the primary/secondary combustion for that, but when you need to light a load off quickly, it beats letting it set and smolder - which isn't terribly efficient either.

 

[rkymtnoffgrid]

With my dutchwest, I would open the ashpan door expressly to incernate a huge coal bed from oak, let me tell you, its very effective, but you have to be very carefull about an overfire like I've done on a number of occocassions before I knew any better. Now I simply shut down the main air and just release the latch on the ashdoor without opening the door at all, at first it doesn't seem to do much, but 5 mins later the coal bed is more active even though the stove temps are dropping...I will then just tap the door to "jar" it so a little more air can get in, sometimes this is not necessary. The dynamics of the fire change, but overall the stove temps don't necessary have to. As I already mentioned, with that stove I've already overfired it so I'm not afraid to operate it like this. Now at my house, I have a brand new Leyden, which right now is 1/2 full of oak coals, I could easily get rid of them with this technique, but I'm scared to hurt the stove. Once I get an IR gun, I will begin to experiment with this a little more, as long as everything is not getting too hot. In fact, I wouldn't be afraid of a future modification which would allow a controlable air input into the ashpan area, at least then one would have more control of the firing of the stove, and I think that is key. (naturally there goes the warranty) It obviously is a slippery slope, theres always three or four unforeseen ways it could get out of hand. As far as starting a fire with a cold stove using this method, theres no hugh coal bed so I wouldnt think the danger would be to the ashgrate, just a general overfire, I would think this starting meathod would have much less dangerous "potential" provided the stove remains in normal operating temps. One just cant dump tons of air directly under the fire like that, it has to be controlled.

 

[Jags]

Well...at least I tried. :shut:

 

[gpcollen1]

Flashback is REAL and can get you if you you keep on trying. I wonder how your face may feel, or eyes, after a nice flash...

 

[Jags]

Flashback is REAL and can get you if you you keep on trying. I wonder how your face may feel, or eyes, after a nice flash...

Heck, my door was shut and the following "WHOOMPF" was enough to rattle the whole house. Scary crap I tell ya.

What happens is: by opening the ash door, you are introducing an abnormally large amount of oxygen that is now supporting an abnormally large fire. When you shut the ash door, you rob the fire of the needed oxygen to continue to support it. IF the fire is substantial enough it will actually pull air DOWN your chimney - and once that new oxygen feeds the starving fire, it is basically a low power explosion. This will result in a heart rate that a horny mouse couldn't compare to.

 

[begreen]

Have you ever heard of "flashback". It can happen. Trust me, it can happen. And I will bet the ash pan door was open for no more than 45 seconds. It'll scare the hell out of you and truly convince you to never do it again.

Likewise. And after I cleaned up my pants I blessed every triple screwed pipe connection and the glass for staying intact.

 

[Jags]

Have you ever heard of "flashback". It can happen. Trust me, it can happen. And I will bet the ash pan door was open for no more than 45 seconds. It'll scare the hell out of you and truly convince you to never do it again.

Likewise. And after I cleaned up my pants I blessed every triple screwed pipe connection and the glass for staying intact.

I believe that the flight of stairs to the crawl space in which my stack goes through was climbed in 3 steps. And a complete visual inspection was done before another stick of wood went into the firebox. And a hearty thanks to the installer that must of had a bunch of screws to get rid of and to Quad for making a damn near bomb proof firebox.

 

[rkymtnoffgrid]

It doest have to be the ashdoor for that to happen, many of the top loaders, including mine, are bad for that happening on the top...because its so easy to just open it up...I've never had a backdraft/flashback through the ashpan door in three years with my Dutchwest, but in the two weeks here with my new Leyden it happened once and it wont happen again... boy that can get ya if you don't open that lid slowly... You learn that lesson in a hurry.

 

[Corey]

Any time you have smoke coming off the wood, you could technically have a flashback. The smoke is just unburned hydrocarbons which can burn if the conditions are right. But that is exactly why I open the ash pan door - to make sure there is fire and not a bunch of smoldering. Anytime you have a big fire and slam the air closed you're going to get a lot of smoke and the possibility for a "boom". I suppose modern modern stoves make that a bit less likely to happen because you always have air through the primary or secondaries. But the key is to avoid the big fire suddenly starved of air condition - whether that means the brain actually engaging with the hand and saying 'don't do that' or the more goof proof method of an air control with can close either primary or secondary but never both.

 

[hareball]

If you crack the door on these newer stoves does it have the same effect as an old smoke dragon?

 

[bsa0021]

Anyone have a stove that has a configuration where an ir temp gun can hit the grate while doing this? I would think the rush of incomming cold air would cool the grate perhaps countering the effect of the forge on the actual grate. Oh yea, the stove is going to get really hot, you bet your britches, but if the air control is totally shut down and the only incomming air is from under the grate, would it be focused on the grate or just above it? The reason I say this is because I have overfired my Dutchwest in this fasion out of ignorance for 3 years. I have gotten the top of the stove a very mild red-hot, (I just didn't know I wasnt supposed to do this) Over the years I have damaged it and now have cracks and warps in the bypass plate, and upper right and left of the side door. However, the bottom of the stove, the ash grate, etc, is as straight and intact as the day I bought it. I would like to see what the actual temps are on the ash grate when doing this, I would think that the danger is for overfire and excessive heat toward the top and outlet of the stove. In fact, looking back, if I would have only paid attention to the stove temps in normal recommened fashion, (a flue thermo) and never exceeded that, I don't think my stove would have had any damage. But here is the fact, my stove is damaged because I operated it expressly with the ash door open, it's so much easier from a manufactures standpoint to say "never do this"...I am the example...There are dangers with it, I don't know if its the ash grate that you necessarly have to worry about. Get an IR Gun, find out, then post, I'm definatly curious.

Am I reading this correctly? You are using your stove with cracks in the bypass plate? Is the bypass plate the shelf that the damper door rests into? Doesn't that exhaust into the room with those cracks?

 

[rkymtnoffgrid]

Yes, right and left of bypass damper, on the shelf, no it does not exaust into the room, it does not seem to affect the stove...Heres a pict, although others have had the same cracking without ever overfiring, perhaps its a weakness in the stove, I don't know because I have gotten my good and hot at least 4 times...