The problem... and answer... to pellets

[summit]

Problem with pellets and pellet stoves; Fuel cost has fluctuated upward due to high increase in demand, many people who should not have stoves got into them because of the allure of cheaper fuel prices. when oil came down (and then parts of the economy), pellets stayed up due to lack of material supply and highest ever demand. Peopled are peeved cause their new toy runs par with oil, now.

Answer; pellet fuel cannot be promoted as such a cost alternative, as much as a world alternative. The more of our own domestic fuel we can supply (pellets, biomass, nuke, etc), the less we can depend on the rest of the world to dictate our energy prices. It is greener, and all that, but if we are going to get our energy situated, it has gotta be seen as promoting local eonomy. People will pay to support the job in their area right now. (although this will probably not be the last selling point ever introduced to pellets)
Now if only the American plants could make as nice of a pellet as the Canadian plants.....

 

[JustWood]

The answer to cheap pellets IS, for pellet stove manufacturers to develop a stove that can burn a "dirty" pellet without problems. There is a massive amount of "dirty" raw material out there (within very close proximity of pellet mills to be had cheaply) , if only manufacturers could produce it without extra die costs and a pellet stove Mfgr. could build a stove to burn that pellet.
If someone could develop such a die or stove they wood be a millionaire.

 

[tjnamtiw]

The answer to cheap pellets IS, for pellet stove manufacturers to develop a stove that can burn a "dirty" pellet without problems. There is a massive amount of "dirty" raw material out there (within very close proximity of pellet mills to be had cheaply) , if only manufacturers could produce it without extra die costs and a pellet stove Mfgr. could build a stove to burn that pellet.
If someone could develope such a die or stove they wood be a millionaire.

I believe the Bixby can burn just about anything. The problem is that they are in deep trouble thanks to the shyster that is also mixed up in the pellet industry. Too bad because the stove has some really unique features.

 

[imacman]

The answer to cheap pellets IS, for pellet stove manufacturers to develop a stove that can burn a "dirty" pellet without problems.....

I believe the Bixby can burn just about anything. The problem is that they are in deep trouble thanks to the shyster that is also mixed up in the pellet industry. Too bad because the stove has some really unique features.

I thought there were at least 4 Harman pellet stoves that they claim will burn "any grade of pellet at maximum efficiency"?

 

[Delta-T]

The answer to cheap pellets IS, for pellet stove manufacturers to develop a stove that can burn a "dirty" pellet without problems.....

I believe the Bixby can burn just about anything. The problem is that they are in deep trouble thanks to the shyster that is also mixed up in the pellet industry. Too bad because the stove has some really unique features.

I thought there were at least 4 Harman pellet stoves that they claim will burn "any grade of pellet at maximum efficiency"?

I believe that all the Harman pellet stoves can burn junk pellets just fine. Heck, the PC45 will burn Pellets,Corn,Wheat,Oats,Barley,probably cherry pits,Peanut Shells,toenails, and dung. But these units only account for a small "worldwide" percentage of stoves. Downside is that with a 3-8% ash content you will be cleaning the thing very often<read every few minutes, LOL>.

Low grade pellets might be put to better use in CoGen Power plants, that have automation for ash and clinker removal.

 

[tinkabranc]

My stove manual claims the stove can burn any grade pellets but
warns not to exceed 8% moisture content.

However, the "junk" pellets around here are competitively priced with the
premium brands so never bothered with them.

 

[Steveo]

My P68 seems to burn any pellet so far. Of coarse I have only burned like 6 different types of pellets.

 

[minnow]

... The more of our own domestic fuel we can supply (pellets, biomass, nuke, etc), the less we can depend on the rest of the world to dictate our energy prices....

At $300 plus for compressed sawdust, our energy prices are being dicated to us by our own "home grown" cartel. I see little difference in my wallet if I have to pay outrageous prices for either oil or wood. When traditional heating fuels (electric, gas or HHO) and wood pellets are priced pretty close per therm of heat generated, then it becomes an issue as to what is easier to use. In simple terms, if I can get the fuel oil guy to drop a load of oil in my tank and all I have to do is get off my backside and flip the thermostat on to stay warm as compared to calling all over the countryside trying to find a fair price (or even a stable supply) of pellets, have to make four trips to the dealer to bring back the 4 tons I need to heat the house per winter (plus the gas for the truck), unload and stack 200 bags of pellets, drag two bags per day from the garage to the house, clean the stove once a week, clean the chimney twice a year... well you get the drift. The point being, does my time to do all of this count for something ? When I was saving several hundred dollars a heating season over traditional heating then the answer is YES !! When I might save a hundred bucks over 5 months (or $20 a month) then the answer is not quite so clear cut.

 

[summit]

... The more of our own domestic fuel we can supply (pellets, biomass, nuke, etc), the less we can depend on the rest of the world to dictate our energy prices....

At $300 plus for compressed sawdust, our energy prices are being dicated to us by our own "home grown" cartel. I see little difference in my wallet if I have to pay outrageous prices for either oil or wood. When traditional heating fuels (electric, gas or HHO) and wood pellets are priced pretty close per therm of heat generated, then it becomes an issue as to what is easier to use. In simple terms, if I can get the fuel oil guy to drop a load of oil in my tank and all I have to do is get off my backside and flip the thermostat on to stay warm as compared to calling all over the countryside trying to find a fair price (or even a stable supply) of pellets, have to make four trips to the dealer to bring back the 4 tons I need to heat the house per winter (plus the gas for the truck), unload and stack 200 bags of pellets, drag two bags per day from the garage to the house, clean the stove once a week, clean the chimney twice a year... well you get the drift. The point being, does my time to do all of this count for something ? When I was saving several hundred dollars a heating season over traditional heating then the answer is YES !! When I might save a hundred bucks over 5 months (or $20 a month) then the answer is not quite so clear cut.

As wandering said, having a pellet stove that can burn anything is great, and there should be more of them, but you still gotta empty ash more often with crap pellets than you do with good pellets. that is the ultimate indicator about how your pellets are gonna sell and do. one pellet company here in maine is actually churning out a fair priced, middle of the pack kinda pellet..but the stuff the churned out their first year is killing them because it was extremely dirty. I know alot of people who will never give the new mix a try, based on the prior performance. We need to have a more comprehensive standard to produce pellets at a higher quality... I agree with you in principle on the fact that the price has to be more competitive, but remember this last year? everyone was trying to get out of oil because it looked like it was drying up... programs on tv focused on other energy sources, and drill here and now kinda stuff, everything was green and local.. dont need the arabs... etc. if everyone is gonna flock to that, and then pass because it becomes cheaper to go back to paying for oil then dont complain about it when it starts to become more expensive, and dont tell me how cheaper it is to burn oil. If we were really committed to getting off this needle, then we would support our own industry while they provide a viable option. pellets have been a great option for many, but ownership has increased four or five times over in the last 2 yrs. burn our domestic fuel source, give it time... and when heating oil starts to hit 4.89 a gallon again you'll thank me. The biggest killer here is the marginal difference in cost between the two mediums. you can't be fickle and dismiss this product that employes your country's sons and daughters while it is just starting to gain traction in more of a national way than a regional one.

 

[Amaralluis]

At $300 plus for compressed sawdust, our energy prices are being dicated to us by our own "home grown" cartel. I see little difference in my wallet if I have to pay outrageous prices for either oil or wood. When traditional heating fuels (electric, gas or HHO) and wood pellets are priced pretty close per therm of heat generated, then it becomes an issue as to what is easier to use.

I love your comment "$300 plus for compressed sawdust". It sounds so outrageous and yet its the truth.

 

[Wet1]

... The more of our own domestic fuel we can supply (pellets, biomass, nuke, etc), the less we can depend on the rest of the world to dictate our energy prices....

At $300 plus for compressed sawdust, our energy prices are being dicated to us by our own "home grown" cartel. I see little difference in my wallet if I have to pay outrageous prices for either oil or wood. When traditional heating fuels (electric, gas or HHO) and wood pellets are priced pretty close per therm of heat generated, then it becomes an issue as to what is easier to use. In simple terms, if I can get the fuel oil guy to drop a load of oil in my tank and all I have to do is get off my backside and flip the thermostat on to stay warm as compared to calling all over the countryside trying to find a fair price (or even a stable supply) of pellets, have to make four trips to the dealer to bring back the 4 tons I need to heat the house per winter (plus the gas for the truck), unload and stack 200 bags of pellets, drag two bags per day from the garage to the house, clean the stove once a week, clean the chimney twice a year... well you get the drift. The point being, does my time to do all of this count for something ? When I was saving several hundred dollars a heating season over traditional heating then the answer is YES !! When I might save a hundred bucks over 5 months (or $20 a month) then the answer is not quite so clear cut.

As wandering said, having a pellet stove that can burn anything is great, and there should be more of them, but you still gotta empty ash more often with crap pellets than you do with good pellets. that is the ultimate indicator about how your pellets are gonna sell and do. one pellet company here in maine is actually churning out a fair priced, middle of the pack kinda pellet..but the stuff the churned out their first year is killing them because it was extremely dirty. I know alot of people who will never give the new mix a try, based on the prior performance. We need to have a more comprehensive standard to produce pellets at a higher quality... I agree with you in principle on the fact that the price has to be more competitive, but remember this last year? everyone was trying to get out of oil because it looked like it was drying up... programs on tv focused on other energy sources, and drill here and now kinda stuff, everything was green and local.. dont need the arabs... etc. if everyone is gonna flock to that, and then pass because it becomes cheaper to go back to paying for oil then dont complain about it when it starts to become more expensive, and dont tell me how cheaper it is to burn oil. If we were really committed to getting off this needle, then we would support our own industry while they provide a viable option. pellets have been a great option for many, but ownership has increased four or five times over in the last 2 yrs. burn our domestic fuel source, give it time... and when heating oil starts to hit 4.89 a gallon again you'll thank me. The biggest killer here is the marginal difference in cost between the two mediums. you can't be fickle and dismiss this product that employes your country's sons and daughters while it is just starting to gain traction in more of a national way than a regional one.

I respect your comments and agree with many of them. With that said, I think the biggest issue with the pellet industry is consistency, or lack there of... Not only in product quality, but also in supply, and pricing. During the 9 years I've been burning pellets, I've seen some wild swings in all three. Each time I open a bag of pellets from a different lot or supplier, it's like opening a box of Lucky Charms as a child, sometimes the 'prize' inside is good, other times its junk. On a yearly level, the same can be said for supply and pricing as the volatility has been extreme, and it seems to only be getting worse in recent years.

I have no problem supporting my local economy, in fact I prefer to. But, give me a constant product, make it regularly available (so I don't have to hoard excess inventory because of a routine lack of supply), and try to keep the price reasonably stable and fair. Oh wait, I guess I already have that and it grows in the form of trees... I guess I'll take mine in the much cheaper and more consistent 'uncompressed' form going forward because I've about had it with the compressed BS recently.

 

[smoke show]

here in the midwest we get a consistant product at a consistant price.
and if pellets get too expensive we burn corn.

 

[Wet1]

You bring up a good point Pane. For some reason, which I'm yet to get a good answer as to why, there seems to be a totally different 'market' and set of rules for the northeast. Prices, supply, and possibly even product quality are much more inconsistent in the northeast, and there has always been a huge price difference, despite the fact that many (if not most) of the pellets sold in that market are manufactured there. I realize the northeast is the largest market, but the majority of pellets are made on the east coast and in Canada, yet those same pellets are sold in the midwest and on the left coast for significantly less than they are just five minutes from the mill. We are always hearing about the huge cost of fuel and transportation and how it has drastically driven up the cost of pellets, so how could this possibly be?!?!?!? IMO, it's just another example of all the shenanigans going on within the pellet industry...

 

[jtakeman]

here in the midwest we get a consistant product at a consistant price.
and if pellets get too expensive we burn corn.

I am sure you are paying less for corn in the midwest, Than I pay here in the northeast. But I can save money with corn over pellets. Corn is $240/ton and good Pellets are at $265/ton. The better pellets are going for $300.00 plus a ton!

I get my corn from a local farmer, Grown here and all profits go to the farmer. So I plan on at least one ton of corn to play with this year. I do prefer the pellets for there cleaner burn. But there is no way I am paying $300 a ton. Might try the cheaper pellet and corn mix. 60% pellet and 40% corn. Gives me good heat and a cleaner burn than stright corn.

So if they look around there area, The corn option may be available to more people that don't know about it. I got my info at a local coop.

I am also waiting for the switch grass and other alternitive pellets to be more available. Just not going to pay the same amount for grass pellets as what there charging for wood pellets. There has to be a cost savings in there somewhere for me to deal with the extra ash build up and more stove cleanings. I can get the Pheonix brand locally but they are about the same as wood pellets.

WHY?

I don't have the oil option as others, But like WET1 I can go back to wood. And will if there is another price swing. Just not looking forward to the extra work involved with it.

Well, at least I have options and not stuck with just one source of heat.

Lets hope things stablize soon, So we can get a more stable product and pricing.
jay

 

[Delta-T]

I don't believe that "most" pellets are produced on the east. Some are, by a few mills, but many of the mills west of the great lakes are huge and can produce 200K+ tons per year. Out here most of the mills are well under 150K tons per year. I think one of the bizarre factors that contributes to higher pricing here is the 80% of the HHO that is use in the country is in the NE from NY to Maine. Much of the west has a decent NG infrastructure so the price war is pretty diversified. Transportation also plays a role. There's a lot of "one way" hauling here in the NE. I dont know if that is the case in the west, but here its a killer. Anyone who lives up here knows that "you can't get there from here". In NH we only have 1 good E-W road (101) and 2 N-S roads (93, 3, these actually combine into the same road). I'm not a fan of the "not so competative" pricing thats happening right now. Everyone here has good logic going on about saving money, adn personal applications for wood, pellets or HHO. I don't think anyones choice is really "wrong" its just preference. We all find ways to save money and time adn to spend money and time. I think you your conscience tells you you're making a good decision then run with it. I know a lot of people who've burned pellets for 10 years+ and they're gonna keep on doing it, for whatever their reasons. And I know poeple who've been in it for a year and are gonna stick with it. And same for the other side of things, some old school pellet people are considering getting out.

This whole debate parallels one of my favorite conundrums......I can go to my local farm and buy local apples for $1.29 lb(just an example, havent actually priced apples in a few weeks) or I can go to the "Super Market" and buy apples grown in Brazil for $.99 lb. Whats that about? I still buy the apples from my local farm.

 

[krooser]

The cost of pellets in the NE is a result of higher freight rates going into the area (truckers face a lot of deadheading coming out of the NE). highway tolls, excess government regulation which increase the cost to produce, higher taxes, high land values, mandatory healthcare programs, higher wages, etc.

The midwest has a business enviroment that , while not perfect, is more conducive to business (and jobs). My governor is trying darndest to increase my taxes and cost of living to fool me into thinking I'm living in the NE...

 

[Stentor]

I think that some of you are forgetting that you are dealing with a commodity here. ...... The lack of a constant product for most mills is simply because they get their supply from sometimes dozens of sources. I was looking at a manufacture's website just yesterday (hardwood product) and they had listed who supplies them with raw fiber. I bet they had over 30 places (mills, flooring companies, construction companies, pallet manufactures, door companies, millwork shops, moulding companies...etc etc) that they were buying sawdust or trim ends from. Now how in the hell do you get a consistant product when you don't know where your next load of fiber comes from or how much. Sure they can make pellets from what they get, but this week, it might be more oak, next week maple, or even walnut...who knows. The one advantage that most (not all) that Canadian producers have is that they are normally working with the very same fiber, load after load, since most are very close too or part of a lumber mill. Some mills have started their own pellet plants and some are just across the street from a mill. That is why you will usually find the product is the same bag after bag and load after load.

Wet1 (a few posts above)

"......... the biggest issue with the pellet industry is consistency, or lack there of… Not only in product quality, but also in supply, and pricing. During the 9 years I’ve been burning pellets, I’ve seen some wild swings in all three. Each time I open a bag of pellets from a different lot or supplier, it’s like opening a box of Lucky Charms as a child, sometimes the ‘prize’ inside is good, other times its junk. On a yearly level, the same can be said for supply and pricing as the volatility has been extreme, and it seems to only be getting worse in recent years. "

Pellets are certainly a commodity as BTU says. But there are problems with that idea.

1. They're not fungible like many other commodities, meaning that they vary and cannot be swapped as if they are identical. My electricity is the same product here in Massachusetts as in Georgia and in Hawaii and Alaska. Auto fuel is graded clearly by octane, diesel or non-diesel, unleaded or not. The gasoline comes from known and defined types such as oil graded as sweet crude, etc., that I can count on without knowing the details. Even steaks in a supermarket are graded.

2. They supply a niche market so far and also a market that is not mature. Pellets are lightly regulated on the manufacturing or raw materials and packaging sides, which can all be both good and bad, depending on your politics, but that reduces reliability and predictability for me as a consumer. For example, somebody over the border and an hour into New Hampshire could have different products in identical bags. (I have no direct proof of that but my reason is that I've read people here talk about how they were told by the seller that they unfortunately got a "bad batch" of pellets. True or false, an explanation like that means the customer is expected to consider it bad luck but understandable in this type of product.)

3. They are not dependably graded and rated by a reliable third party. The Pellet Fuel Institute may aspire to more but seems to me not to be very powerful. It says a lot that folks on this forum are constantly trading tips not just about price and availabilty but fundamental quality and features. And it's not good that all kinds of people have no agreed criteria, so some weigh ash and try to measure heat in BTU with all kinds of thermometer and others just try to find what feels good. (I'm not knocking either approach - - personally I go along more with how warm we feel when it's cold outside.)

I can't say for sure but I bet the size of the market will have to increase and the number of players consolidated before pellets become a more "rational" commodity.

Just my two cents!

 

[Delta-T]

Stentor- good thinking, never looked at it at the "nuts and bolts" level like that before. Heck...even dirt has grades you can pretty much count on.

 

[JustWood]

BTU,
You seem to have a firm grip on the Biz from raw product all the way to retail sales.
A few things I might add about quality are,
Pellets labeled "100% hardwood" are gauranteed not to be and same goes with those labeled "100% softwood", unless the manufacturer has his own source for raw product. Many small to mid size mills across the country produce both soft and hardwood with no way of separating the different species. It all goes into the same bin.
Production circle mills that have a debarker go down for half a day don't stop sawing and this leads to bark in the sawdust.
With the high demand for pellets and the low raw product volume this last year I bet alot of raw product storage bunks were literally swept clean and alot of "cooked out" and rotten sawdust was put into the mix , from both sawmills and pellet mills.
I don't see an easy way to regulate quality unless a pellet mill produces it's own raw product and even then the owner is going to try and squeeze every ounce of material out of there operation.
I think stove manufacturers need to step up and produce more multifuel stoves and less problemmatic stoves that can burn a "dirty" pellet.

 

[wil lanfear]

As far as different rules in the NE, it still boils down to supply and demand. The NE will use about 85% of all the pellets used in this country


With over a million pellet stoves in this country, that ladies and gentlemen is called supply and demand....pretty much no different than if you are Big Oil, or a car company or a home builder. If more people want your product than you can supply, you get to charge more, but if less need it, then you better be able to produce at a lower cost or go out of business...which some have over the last couple of years.

This tells the true reasoning for the high costs of pellets in the NE. With HHO at the present costs, auto manufactures getting bailed out, home building in a slump, pellet manufacturers and retailers thinking that they can get these high costs for pellets is just unbelievable to me. HHO prebuy was advertised here at $2.39 per gal vs roughly $280 ~ $300.00 per ton for pellets delivered, from an economic standpoint, why would you even consider burning pellets is beyond me.

 

[rowerwet]

you have to remember that pellet mills on the east coast can also sell to overseas easily, I have read of a few mills down south in GA and AL that are only selling to europe. Europe has been burning pellets longer, and due to exchange rates the cost of pellets from the east coast is only going to get better for them as the dollar becomes worthless.
The midwest could see competition from Europe also due to great lakes shipping, at least this would be good for the US and help our trade imballance, unlike oil.