Thoughts on the Lopi Leyden?

[JV_Thimble]

This would be paired with knocking out the interior ceramic flue in our existing chimney, replacing it with a 6" insulated liner, and installing a proper thimble through the wall. A couple of related posts are here - https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/64202/ and https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/64448/.

Overall, I suspect that going from an old VC Vigilant with improper burning practices and a poor/marginal chimney to a modern stove with proper chimney and better practices would be like night and day, and that any possible issues on the Leyden would be minor in comparison. However, I'd like to get some thoughts on:

1. How Leyden owners like their stoves
2. If this stove might be more than we need for the space (and if so, easy enough to burn small fires?)
3. Are the draft finicky-ness issues I've read about here likely to be less of a problem with a proper flue/liner?
4. What's 'finicky', and how much does it matter (some dogs and cats are finicky eaters, with little or no real consequence)?
5. Glass cleaning issues worse than an old VC Vigilant?
6. Just how fragile is the ceramic refractory in the back - set a log in from the top and you're out of business?

Thanks in advance,

John

 

[Troutchaser]

John,
There are a few Leyden owners on this site, and I hope they can be of more help than myself. You may wish to investigate the Harman Oakwood threads because the stoves are very similar.
I started wood burning last year with the Leyden. Never burned wood before, so a lot of my mistakes would have happened with any stove.
I'm yet to get that advertised 12 hour burn, but I'm working on it everyday. Where last year I could hardly get the combustion package to light off (bad wood), this year I'm working with wood configuration, etc... to keep it burning clean and lasting. Much better than last year already.
A strong draft is a must (I'm thinking of adding on another 3' to make an even 24').
Just a hunch, but I suspect downdraft stoves might be the least cooperative when it comes to wood moisture. Plan to dry wood 2 years.

This stove throws off some heat. You will not be disappointed. I am often too hot. The females love it. No problem heating 2000sf at 0*F.
As easy as a burn tube or cat? No, probably not. I'm hoping to find the sweet spot for long burns to make it all worth it.

You don't have to worry much about damaging the combustion package unless you're absolutely careless. I don't handle it. There are two removable plugs in the rear of the stove to suck out ash from the combuster so you can remain hands off.
Hope this helps some. Downdrafting, a.k.a. "everyburn", is sometimes seen as a bad word on this site.

 

[branchburner]

John, this stove is likely to test your patience at times, so consider the pros and cons before proceeding. These crossdraft/downdraft burners can be high maintenance. Let me address:

2. If this stove might be more than we need for the space (and if so, easy enough to burn small fires?)
Generally NOT easy to maintain small fires, at least with real clean-burning efficiency. This style of stove is a heat machine, best suited to heating bigger spaces, using long burns with a decent size wood load. With the Oakwood, there is a period at startup where the fire gets a bit hot to leave the damper open, but not enough coals to close the damper and get good secondary combustion. Once it's up and running, it works best when kept running, meaning LOTS of heat.

6. Just how fragile is the ceramic refractory in the back - set a log in from the top and you’re out of business?
Even if you are very careful, this piece is likely to need replacing eventually. I don't know if it will be more or less durable than the Oakwood's, but I do know of one Lopi dealer that stopped stocking the Leyden due to customer problems. I think they got tired of having to explain the ins and outs and the cautions of running the stove. On the plus side, it appears Lopi is much better at supporting warranty claims than Harman.

 

[JV_Thimble]

John,
There are a few Leyden owners on this site, and I hope they can be of more help than myself. You may wish to investigate the Harman Oakwood threads because the stoves are very similar.
I started wood burning last year with the Leyden. Never burned wood before, so a lot of my mistakes would have happened with any stove.
I'm yet to get that advertised 12 hour burn, but I'm working on it everyday. Where last year I could hardly get the combustion package to light off (bad wood), this year I'm working with wood configuration, etc... to keep it burning clean and lasting. Much better than last year already.
A strong draft is a must (I'm thinking of adding on another 3' to make an even 24').
Just a hunch, but I suspect downdraft stoves might be the least cooperative when it comes to wood moisture. Plan to dry wood 2 years.

This stove throws off some heat. You will not be disappointed. I am often too hot. The females love it. No problem heating 2000sf at 0*F.
As easy as a burn tube or cat? No, probably not. I'm hoping to find the sweet spot for long burns to make it all worth it.

You don't have to worry much about damaging the combustion package unless you're absolutely careless. I don't handle it. There are two removable plugs in the rear of the stove to suck out ash from the combuster so you can remain hands off.
Hope this helps some. Downdrafting, a.k.a. "everyburn", is sometimes seen as a bad word on this site.

Many thanks, Troutchaser. Some good reading on the Harmans as well here. Lots to think about. I don't want to over-think the decision of what stove to get, but I don't want to have major problems either. Might be easiest to just buy one that's a close enough fit, and learn how to use it in a way that works for my situation.

 

[JV_Thimble]

John, this stove is likely to test your patience at times, so consider the pros and cons before proceeding. These crossdraft/downdraft burners can be high maintenance. Let me address:

2. If this stove might be more than we need for the space (and if so, easy enough to burn small fires?)
Generally NOT easy to maintain small fires, at least with real clean-burning efficiency. This style of stove is a heat machine, best suited to heating bigger spaces, using long burns with a decent size wood load. With the Oakwood, there is a period at startup where the fire gets a bit hot to leave the damper open, but not enough coals to close the damper and get good secondary combustion. Once it's up and running, it works best when kept running, meaning LOTS of heat.

6. Just how fragile is the ceramic refractory in the back - set a log in from the top and you’re out of business?
Even if you are very careful, this piece is likely to need replacing eventually. I don't know if it will be more or less durable than the Oakwood's, but I do know of one Lopi dealer that stopped stocking the Leyden due to customer problems. I think they got tired of having to explain the ins and outs and the cautions of running the stove. On the plus side, it appears Lopi is much better at supporting warranty claims than Harman.

Sounds like I should bring this up with the dealer for some discussion. He also carries the Hearthstones and Quadrafires, and even reps for VC (though he says he sells very few of those). I liked this guy's plan for my chimney better than the Jotul rep's plan, and it seems like it would be easiest/best to deal with one place for the stove and the chimney/install...

 

[branchburner]

Talk to the Leyden dealer as much as possible about the satisfaction of other Leyden customers, and how he feels about the downdraft stoves compared to something like the Quad Isle Royale (maybe bigger than you need, but a good stove).

 

[Renovation]

Hi JV,

I came to this site leaning towards the Leyden. After reading the reviews and threads here that you will undoubtedly read yourself, I got the impression that the Leyden is more tricky than some others, and not the best match for me. That's not to disrespect the Leyden, and I'm sure some people love it.

If you're not decided on the Leyden, I suggest you read around and ask questions before you decide, and see if it is the best choice for you. If you've decided on the Leyden, I can think of no better group of folks to help you get the best out of it. Good luck.

And howdy neighbor!

 

[ControlFreak]

My opinion here: these "everburn" stoves give you all the complexity and hassle of a cat stove, without the benefit of the catalyst. Getting the combustor lit and keeping it lit is a challenge, and you also lose the beauty of a clean-burning fire in view through the glass. The glass will be covered in brown gunk if you try to get the long burns, and that's by design since the main firebox is really a smoke generator to feed the combustor in the back.
On my Avalon Arbor (same as the Leyden), I also get a residual smoke odor in the air when burning on low. I think that it's puffing once in a while, or there's a tiny leak in the top loader door. With my 1401 I get zero smell after 14 years of use.

 

[branchburner]

The glass will be covered in brown gunk if you try to get the long burns, and that's by design since the main firebox is really a smoke generator to feed the combustor in the back.

I found my glass will clean right up on reloads, but that's well put, the firebox is a smoke generator! Nice fire early on, then it moves to the back when you step down the air. Right now my firebox looks like a heap of smoldering, charred wood - but the back of the firebox is at 650F. I will re-arrange the splits and push them to the back of the stove halfway through the burn, this will keep the glass clean. Towards the end of the burn there is often a show of nice, wispy blue flame.

 

[Troutchaser]

I get some glass darkening on the sides, but not enough to bother me. Like, Bburner said, it burns off on the next reload.
When the glass gets that haze, I just wipe down with a moist napkin.
And you can certainly have nice little mood fires with this stove if you don't need all the heat. With two splits and a top down, I can burn pretty clean and at least warm the room- all with a pretty fire.

But ya, the stove works at its best with big wood loads and screaming hot coals.
I like downdrafting. I've usually always got some flames kicking around in there, darting back towards the combuster.

The Leyden is a beautiful stove and that's why I bought it. If the stove shop would have asked me if I wanted to see a cat, I would have been looking for something furry because I knew nothing about combusting smoke, burn times, everburns, or tubes. I just wanted a damn fire in a pretty box.
Shop did tell me that it would keep my house warm to around 20* outside temps. Ha! I'd like to see old man winter try to outduel this heat machine.

I know that years ago Travis had a problem with the damper plate popping open on the Leyden. But they fixed that before I bought my stove.
Answer these questions:
How's your wood?
How's your draft?
Will this stove overheat the house?
How's your patience (learning curve)?

 

[branchburner]

Answer these questions:
How's your wood?
How's your draft?
Will this stove overheat the house?
How's your patience (learning curve)?

Right! You can fix number one with a little time and money, but bad wood will really set a bad tone for question number four.

 

[summit]

Leyden is okay, a little touchy, be careful cleaning out the combustion pack, and make sure the ashpan door closes tightly

Just to add some spice to this, we just hooked up a ne 2n1 VC encore on the showroom floor, and I gotta say I am impressed. They have done away with the fragile "foam like" combustion chamber and replaced it with some rugged cast refractory. This is a HUGE improvement ove just about any down draft stove out there today: you don't have to worry about sucking up the fragile assembly in a vaccum during seasonal cleanings, and it is easilly accessed w/ no tools to add/ remove the cat and clean up. They improved the front door handle, best I've ever seen from a VC... The burn manages alot easier than the old "neverburn" system. I'd take a look at these new product if you are considering a top loader...The Leyden's top load door is more square, and easier to load big / mishaped logs into, and it sits up a little higher, also is less money.

 

[branchburner]

Just to add some spice to this, we just hooked up a ne 2n1 VC encore on the showroom floor, and I gotta say I am impressed.

Just wondering - do you have to remove the combustor for it to burn in downdraft mode? And why wouldn't you just leave the combustor in, isn't it easier to run in cat mode rather than downdraft mode? Or do you not need a coal bed with the new stove?

 

[JV_Thimble]

I get some glass darkening on the sides, but not enough to bother me. Like, Bburner said, it burns off on the next reload.
When the glass gets that haze, I just wipe down with a moist napkin.
And you can certainly have nice little mood fires with this stove if you don't need all the heat. With two splits and a top down, I can burn pretty clean and at least warm the room- all with a pretty fire.

But ya, the stove works at its best with big wood loads and screaming hot coals.
I like downdrafting. I've usually always got some flames kicking around in there, darting back towards the combuster.

The Leyden is a beautiful stove and that's why I bought it. If the stove shop would have asked me if I wanted to see a cat, I would have been looking for something furry because I knew nothing about combusting smoke, burn times, everburns, or tubes. I just wanted a damn fire in a pretty box.
Shop did tell me that it would keep my house warm to around 20* outside temps. Ha! I'd like to see old man winter try to outduel this heat machine.

I know that years ago Travis had a problem with the damper plate popping open on the Leyden. But they fixed that before I bought my stove.
Answer these questions:
How's your wood?
How's your draft?
Will this stove overheat the house?
How's your patience (learning curve)?

I like these questions, and I think they'll help in the deciding on whatever we get.

How's your wood?

Probably a touch over two face cords of very dry wood. So, for this year, once I get a stove, I may be done after that unless I get lucky on finding some nice, dry wood. Holding off on buying wood till I figure out which stove and get an install actually scheduled. Then I'll see how long this season might be for burning.

How's your draft?

No idea, as I'm getting a new 6" insulated liner as part of the install. Basement install, I guess I'll have to see on that.

Will this stove overheat the house?

That's something that might be a problem, I really have no idea on that. If this stove likes to be run continuously rather than intermittently, that may be more of a problem. I doubt it will overheat the house if I run one fire a day, but I've no idea if that'll be too tricky a thing to do. Bedroom is at opposite end of the house and we like that cool, so maybe ok even if this is a heat machine.

How's your patience (learning curve)?

Very patient and willing to learn. But I do want to get to a point that I don't have to fuss with it too much. Once I'm familiar with something, it should get easier. And I want it to be easy enough that my wife can use it. She's quite capable, but this isn't exactly her thing.

 

[JV_Thimble]

Leyden is okay, a little touchy, be careful cleaning out the combustion pack, and make sure the ashpan door closes tightly

Just to add some spice to this, we just hooked up a ne 2n1 VC encore on the showroom floor, and I gotta say I am impressed. They have done away with the fragile "foam like" combustion chamber and replaced it with some rugged cast refractory. This is a HUGE improvement ove just about any down draft stove out there today: you don't have to worry about sucking up the fragile assembly in a vaccum during seasonal cleanings, and it is easilly accessed w/ no tools to add/ remove the cat and clean up. They improved the front door handle, best I've ever seen from a VC... The burn manages alot easier than the old "neverburn" system. I'd take a look at these new product if you are considering a top loader...The Leyden's top load door is more square, and easier to load big / mishaped logs into, and it sits up a little higher, also is less money.

I'll take a look at the VCs as well. This dealer carries them, but is seemingly not too much of a fan.

 

[Smokey Bear]

JV_Thimble, What size space are you trying to heat? Living level or basement?

 

[JV_Thimble]

JV_Thimble, What size space are you trying to heat? Living level or basement?

Basement space, room is 23 x 21. About 20' from a stairway to the upstairs, which has a very open floorplan and can use the heat. Like to burn at least one fire in the evening every day (eat dinner and watch the tube in this 23 x 21 space, which is unheated). Also like to burn continuously when time and wood supply allow. Probably will do more continuous burns next year than this year, need to get more wood in a well-seasoned condition.

 

[branchburner]

Basement space, room is 23 x 21. About 20' from a stairway to the upstairs, which has a very open floorplan and can use the heat

What temp range do you want this room? There's a good chance it will be hotter than you like, and not as much heat as hoped will make it upstairs. Any game plan for moving the heat?

 

[Smokey Bear]

This would be paired with knocking out the interior ceramic flue in our existing chimney, replacing it with a 6" insulated liner, and installing a proper thimble through the wall. A couple of related posts are here - https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/64202/ and https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/64448/.

Overall, I suspect that going from an old VC Vigilant with improper burning practices and a poor/marginal chimney to a modern stove with proper chimney and better practices would be like night and day, and that any possible issues on the Leyden would be minor in comparison. However, I'd like to get some thoughts on:

1. How Leyden owners like their stoves I like the Leyden, I have only had it since late last winter
2. If this stove might be more than we need for the space (and if so, easy enough to burn small fires?) If want a small fire I just don't use the secondary burn. My stove is in a 350s/f finished basement, open stairway to 1,700 s/f ranch. The finshed basement overheating is a struggle, the rest of the house heats nicely.
3. Are the draft finicky-ness issues I've read about here likely to be less of a problem with a proper flue/liner? I learned to burn on the V/C Resolute Acclaim w/secondary, burn i've had no trouble with the LL, I do have a great draft
4. What's 'finicky', and how much does it matter (some dogs and cats are finicky eaters, with little or no real consequence)?
5. Glass cleaning issues worse than an old VC Vigilant? Same as V/C Acclaim
6. Just how fragile is the ceramic refractory in the back - set a log in from the top and you're out of business? No issues, once again kinda like my old Accliam

Is your Vigilant a top-loader? I really am use to the top loader feature and that limits your choices.
Good luck with your decision, I'll be glad to answer any other questions I can.

Thanks in advance,

John

 

[JV_Thimble]

Basement space, room is 23 x 21. About 20' from a stairway to the upstairs, which has a very open floorplan and can use the heat

What temp range do you want this room? There's a good chance it will be hotter than you like, and not as much heat as hoped will make it upstairs. Any game plan for moving the heat?

We've had it up to 80 or so with the Vigilant, and that was ok. However, I ran that with an open damper (oblivious mode, as I like to call it), and could probably have gotten a lot more heat out of that stove under proper operating conditions. Just the same, the Vigilant did an excellent job of heating most of the rest of the house (upstairs), except on the coldest nights. Then the west end would be chilly, and/or our natural gas furnace would kick on.

As far as a heat circulation plan, it's pretty passive. That end of the house has no ducts from our forced air furnace, although there is a ceiling fan in the living room upstairs.

 

[branchburner]

If you don't mind 80F and the heat moved around okay with the Vigilant, I'd say you're okay to go, as long as the draft is good.

 

[JV_Thimble]

If you don't mind 80F and the heat moved around okay with the Vigilant, I'd say you're okay to go, as long as the draft is good.

Thanks, will also talk with the dealer about size and operations versus/customer satisfaction on other types of stoves he carries:

VC Encore Cat (Bordeaux color looks nice)
Hearthstone/Shelburne
Quadrafire (Cumberland Gap and/or Isle Royale)

From an operations and simplicity perspective, I suspect I may be better off with the Hearthstone or the Quad. Hopefully done deciding soon. More time burning and less time thinking would be good. I do enough thinking at work.

Cheers,

John

 

[Troutchaser]

I think with the stove in the basement you'll want something that can throw 700* heat without balking, like a Leyden, etc... That way, more will get into the upstairs. I don't think you'll be overheating the house with this stove in the basement.
Don't worry about burning continuously. I don't do it all the time. Today was the first day this year that I left the house with the stove burning. It's been mostly cold with every reload till now.

10pm last night loaded two small splits and four mediums/large (ash and cherry)splits on a decent coal bed. Plenty of coals this morning at 6pm, stove around 100*, house temp. at 73*, and 18* outside. Probably could have added another two splits to the load before bed last night if I'd wished. And denser wood would have lasted longer as well.
But our stove is in the living room.
I strongly recommend a blower with this stove.

 

[JV_Thimble]

I think with the stove in the basement you'll want something that can throw 700* heat without balking, like a Leyden, etc... That way, more will get into the upstairs. I don't think you'll be overheating the house with this stove in the basement.
Don't worry about burning continuously. I don't do it all the time. Today was the first day this year that I left the house with the stove burning. It's been mostly cold with every reload till now.

10pm last night loaded two small splits and four mediums/large (ash and cherry)splits on a decent coal bed. Plenty of coals this morning at 6pm, stove around 100*, house temp. at 73*, and 18* outside. Probably could have added another two splits to the load before bed last night if I'd wished. And denser wood would have lasted longer as well.
But our stove is in the living room.
I strongly recommend a blower with this stove.

If I get this stove, the dealer is throwing in the blower...