Tile and a hearth floor

[jtrm]

Hello, I have really enjoyed reading all the great ideas passed around in this forum and could use some advice. We are preparing to have have our first wood stove a Napleon 1400 pedestal installed. We would very much like to build a hearth floor out of some nice tile we found. We are placing the stove in our central room which is on the second of 3 small floors..... in a 60"by 60" 3 sided nook that is made by 2 walls and a stairwell. We had originally planned to make a hearth floor out of porcelain tile on top of 1/2" to 1" of cement board. But now on review of the manufacturer's installation manual this kind of installation would appear to be out of code. Napoleon's installation manual states....

"If the stove is to be installed on a combustible floor, it must be placed on an approved non-combustible hearth pad,........"
The underlying floor is wood.

We are hoping for ideas that will allow us to use tile and still be code compliant. Would it be possible to place UL listed basic back stove board or other hearth pad... under the tile in place of the cement board or with a 1/2" of cement board and still be within code? I wrote to Napoleon last night but have not yet heard back from them.

If I understood our dealer correctly..... if we choose to build a hearth from scratch we would have to go with the NFPA restrictions for unlisted stoves to be code compliant.

"Construction: The basic floor protection specified by NFPA applies to stoves with legs over 6” in height. This means that the floor of the stove combustion chamber should be at least this height above the floor surface. The standard calls for:
1. Closely spaced 2” thick masonry units (brick or cinderblock/patio block.
2. Top cover of 24 gauge sheet metal."
This will not work for us.

We would much rather use base materials in place of a premade floor .... mainly because of personal taste. Also we don't believe that hearth pads are made in the shape we want (to fill the nook) and are very difficult to cut. Of course we don't want to have any safety concerns nor make our home owner insurance salesman unhappy.

We would appreciate any suggestions.

pax
jayte

 

[begreen]

Here's what I would do to meet requirements. Durock is 1/2" cement board. If you put down 2 layers of durock, then a layer of 26 ga sheet metal, then another two layers of durock, and tile on top, you've met requirements.

 

[Harley]

I think BG's suggestion would work fine, and certainly meet the requirements, and you could make it into any shape you like, as long as you keep the distance requirements, and then tile away to your taste.

For some reason - though you didn't say it - it seemed to me that the height of the hearth pad was an issue. If that is, depending on the flooring, and sub-flooring - you could possibly gain a little space by cutting out the existing floor in the shape you like, and start building up the "sandwich" of durock on the sub-floor, and maybe get rid of one or more layers of durock by putting a layer of micore in between. The best place to start would be to get in touch with the local BI and get their comments as to what they would sign off on, and then go from there.

 

[jtrm]

Thank you very much. I spent a good part of the evening trying to angle 48" by 60" ( the larges hearth pad size I could find) to fit the dimensions of the stove and of our space. But I see it would be easier and more flexible to if I can just cut the durock and sheet metal to cover the space and then cover with tile. I'll check with the person putting in the tile and see if I need to sandwich the sheet metal or just put the sheet metal on top and tile over it. The height is not a big concern. The ceiling is over 7 ft though one cross beam is about 80" and so we would like have the hearth as low as possible. I'll do a search for micore in the morning. I am not familiar with this material. And I'll see if I can speak with the building inspector.

thanks again

 

[begreen]

For a much better bond, your tilesetter will want the final surface to be durock, not metal. You'll have a final front edge of 2" that will need to be tiled with a matching tile.

 

[jtrm]

That makes sense.

But do you think the BI will have concerns with the sheet metal being between the durock rather than on top of it?

 

[begreen]

No, he shouldn't. It's really just a non-flamable, reflective heat barrier. But ask for peace of mind (as long as they don't charge you $128/hr to do so).

 

[drhiii]

This is not answering your question directly, but thought to chime in as I too have a Napoleon 1400 pedestal. Love it. I too had some decisions about a hearth pad. Since I had an existing space where a raised pad was used for a prior stove setup, my space was somewhat defined. A bit rectangl-y. I ended up creating a hearth pad out of brick pavers. Could not be happier. I thought I'd have to do all kinds of sealing, securing, cementing, etc. No such thing. My brother convinced me to just lay the pavers in the space which is approx 1/3rd of an inch deep, leaving 2/3rds of the brick exposed. I thought for SURE I'd be battling pavers as they would somehow mysteriously fly out because they were held in by gravity. To the contrary, I have not had a single problem. The fit is tight, the look is rustic as I choose some interesting colors combos, I laid them down by hand in a few minutes, built an expander thing that keeps tension outward from the air inlet at the base of the stove. And that was it. Looks great. Very easy. Couldn't be more pleased by the simplicity. Main thing was having a frame foundation that already existed which made it easier. See no need to seal them together and if by chance one cracks, replacement is a snap. The paver route maintained by gravity and snug fits are something I would repeat. FWIW.

Hello, I have really enjoyed reading all the great ideas passed around in this forum and could use some advice. We are preparing to have have our first wood stove a Napleon 1400 pedestal installed. We would very much like to build a hearth floor out of some nice tile we found. We are placing the stove in our central room which is on the second of 3 small floors..... in a 60"by 60" 3 sided nook that is made by 2 walls and a stairwell. We had originally planned to make a hearth floor out of porcelain tile on top of 1/2" to 1" of cement board. But now on review of the manufacturer's installation manual this kind of installation would appear to be out of code. Napoleon's installation manual states....

"If the stove is to be installed on a combustible floor, it must be placed on an approved non-combustible hearth pad,........"
The underlying floor is wood.

We are hoping for ideas that will allow us to use tile and still be code compliant. Would it be possible to place UL listed basic back stove board or other hearth pad... under the tile in place of the cement board or with a 1/2" of cement board and still be within code? I wrote to Napoleon last night but have not yet heard back from them.

If I understood our dealer correctly..... if we choose to build a hearth from scratch we would have to go with the NFPA restrictions for unlisted stoves to be code compliant.

"Construction: The basic floor protection specified by NFPA applies to stoves with legs over 6” in height. This means that the floor of the stove combustion chamber should be at least this height above the floor surface. The standard calls for:
1. Closely spaced 2” thick masonry units (brick or cinderblock/patio block.
2. Top cover of 24 gauge sheet metal."
This will not work for us.

We would much rather use base materials in place of a premade floor .... mainly because of personal taste. Also we don't believe that hearth pads are made in the shape we want (to fill the nook) and are very difficult to cut. Of course we don't want to have any safety concerns nor make our home owner insurance salesman unhappy.

We would appreciate any suggestions.

pax
jayte

 

[jtrm]

I imagine that must really look nice. We are trying to get that more natural look and avoid the prefab pattern boards.... If a stone is a stone its a stone... not a board. But unless I hear something different from Napoleon I will need to do 2 inches of concrete and a sheet of 24-26 gauge steel. We'll give it a nice touch with tile. I don't want my second floor to come tumbling down from the weight either. I wonder if I could put the steel down first and then a layer of paver bricks but again it is on a 2nd floor and I think the durock might also help spread out the weight and I would need to frame it well. I'm going to talk again with the installer on monday about some of these ideas.

thanks

jayte

 

[KP Matt]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why would you have to go with the NFPA restrictions for unlisted stoves to be code compliant?

It's a new stove and the manual doesn't specify an R-value, just non-combustible floor protection... wouldn't 1 sheet of durock and the tile be enough? What's all this talk about 2" of concrete paving stones?

Could it be that your dealer wants you to spend a few hundred dollars on a pre-built hearth pad?

 

[Gooserider]

I would agree with the previous post - it does NOT sound to me like you need a huge pad built to NFPA specs for an unlisted stove. Read the manual carefully again - in the section on floor protection does it call for any sort of "R-Value" or other insulation listing? Does it say "or equivalent" any where in the text? I would definitely contact Napoleon, and ask what their specific requirments are for a non-manufactured pad, and / or contact your BI for advice on what he will accept.

If they list a specific make / model of hearth pad, look up that pad and find out what R-value it offers, if any. If the pad has an R-value, you should be able to use any sort of home made construction that meets or exceeds the same value. If there is no listing of an R-value, the pad is merely there to provide a "Non-combustible" surface, and you can build a more than equivalently good pad with ONE layer of Durock covered w/ tile (at a minimum, more won't hurt anything...)

I strongly suspect that if they fail to list a specific R-value, or a specific model of hearth pad, all you need is a non-combustible surface, since that is all that many "UL Listed" manufactured pads provide...

(BTW, you DO need to watch the celing clearance, as there are limits on that, either NFPA specs or what your manual calls out....)

 

[jtrm]

Thanks....I agree that the 2 inches is way over kill but the instillation manual states only....

"If the stove is to be installed on a
combustible floor, it must be placed
on an approved non-combustible
hearth pad, that extends 8" (200mm)
beyond the stove sides and back,
and 18" (455mm) to the front. It must
be installed with a minimum height
of 7’ between......

I have emailed Napoleon (twice but over the weekend) to define "approved non-combustible hearth pad" in terms of r-value or a brand name.

I will also be calling them this morning and if can't reach them have the gentleman who is installing the stove call them.

My big concern is not safety at this point. I just don't want the my home owners insurance company to play with our rates just because we did not parrot the words of the manual. Or could a home inspector raise concerns when we decide to sell the home maybe in 3-4 year.

I'll post what Napoleon tells me. Thanks again for the ideas. A couple layers of durock would definitely make my life easier.

pax
jayte

 

[Bill]

I looked at a Napoleon 1400 a while back and it had a double jacket, with blower, on a pedestal. I can't imagine the floor getting hot at all, seems to me you might just need a non-combustible material under and around the perimeter of the stove. ie. tile, metal, brick, glass etc. But certainly check with the manufacturer.

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks....I agree that the 2 inches is way over kill but the instillation manual states only....

"If the stove is to be installed on a
combustible floor, it must be placed
on an approved non-combustible
hearth pad, that extends 8" (200mm)
beyond the stove sides and back,
and 18" (455mm) to the front. It must
be installed with a minimum height
of 7’ between......

I have emailed Napoleon (twice but over the weekend) to define "approved non-combustible hearth pad" in terms of r-value or a brand name.

I will also be calling them this morning and if can't reach them have the gentleman who is installing the stove call them.

My big concern is not safety at this point. I just don't want the my home owners insurance company to play with our rates just because we did not parrot the words of the manual. Or could a home inspector raise concerns when we decide to sell the home maybe in 3-4 year.

I'll post what Napoleon tells me. Thanks again for the ideas. A couple layers of durock would definitely make my life easier.

pax
jayte

Your building inspector has the final say, but looks to me from what you quote that you just need a "non-combustible" rated pad... I quote from the Durock Submittal Sheet #10310 or CB198 (they seem to use both numbers for the same document) "Durock Cement Board may also be used as a floor protector in place of one layer of 3/8" thick mill board"

My local inspector said that as long as I had a copy of the sheet saying it was OK in that application, he'd have no problem approving it. What I've done is to collect labels and / or take pictures of everything that went into my inspection and print out the submittal sheets on the more signifcant components, and put them in a package with the stove manual to document what went into the extension - should be no problems once you supply that info.

Gooserider

 

[jtrm]

Thank you very much for the durock information. I just printed out the submittlal sheet. I'd like to ask you a question... I appolgize if it is a little neive. What is mill board exactly..... asbestos fortified organic boards? Would you lay one or two layers of this?

Napoleon sent me back a note with a couple things I needed to clarify and so I'm waiting to hear back.

What I'm leaning towards is an inch of durock and then porcelin tile. I may sandwich the steel inbetween the 1/2 inch boards. And it is a great idea to photograph the process and place this information sheet with stove paper work.

thanks

 

[jtrm]

I just heard back from Naploeon technical support.

"Unfortunately we do not specify an R value for hearth construction, as this must be done in accordance with local codes.
For more information, we recommend contacting your local dealer.


So it goes

 

[Gooserider]

Millboard is a rather fuzzy term that includes a fair variety of substances, ranging from cardboard like that used in hardcover book bindings to asbestos boards. It is basically any sort of board made from a fiber pulp that is pressed into shape. In the context of the Durock submittal sheet, I would assume they are talking about an asbestos based product or modern equivalent that is non-combustible and a reasonable insulator.

Since Napoleon does not specify an R-value, I would stick with my earlier suggestion. The standard seems to be that if there is no spec then there is no requirement beyond non-combustibility.

1. Talk to your local code inspector, and verify what THEY will require, however I believe they will merely say "non-combustible surface" (From a "strategic" standpoint, I would suggest proposing one layer of Durock and tile and asking if that would be sufficient, rather than just asking what they want. It tells them you've been doing your homework and gives a place to start from.)

2. For a "non-combustible surface", make your pad out of ONE layer of 1/2" Durock, covered with tiles, slate, or other non-combustible finishing material. If you want to go thicker, you may, but there is no requirement to do so. I would suggest as "good practice" adding a layer of sheet metal (aluminum roof sheathing will do, or any 26 guage or thicker steel sheet) between the subfloor and the Durock, or if using multiple layers, between the layers of Durock

Gooserider

 

[timfromohio]

I'm following this thread closely as I just purchased a Napolean 1150P which will be installed in the coming months. Jayte, the installation procedure you list for your 1400 is the same as that listed for the 1150P. I agree with the others that two 1/2" thick sheets of Durock, with sheet metal inbetween, should be fine. If you look at the picture of the 1150P it actually has a small "wood storage" area in the pedestal. It's really more for looks than anything else, but to me common sense says if Napolean puts a wood storage area in the base of the stove then how hot could it possibly get? The wood in the storage area is definetly a combustible - if it's safe to put wood there, then how hot can the base of the stove actually get?

Thanks for this thread - please let us know what Napolean says and your final installation decisions.

 

[jtrm]

The 1150 is a neat stove.... we were thinking about it for quite a while.....we really like the idea of the stove having multiple functions but in the end decided to go for something just a bit larger.
I spoke with the the building inspector who we hired to check out our home before we bought it this past summer. He's going to get back with me tomorrow but on the surface he though the durock and tile or slate would be fine.... he even asked why I would want to put in the steel.
I'll pass on any other information he gives me.

pax

jayte

 

[Gooserider]

The 1150 is a neat stove.... we were thinking about it for quite a while.....we really like the idea of the stove having multiple functions but in the end decided to go for something just a bit larger.
I spoke with the the building inspector who we hired to check out our home before we bought it this past summer. He's going to get back with me tomorrow but on the surface he though the durock and tile or slate would be fine.... he even asked why I would want to put in the steel.
I'll pass on any other information he gives me.

pax

jayte

The steel (or aluminum) layer is NOT a requirement in terms of code requirements - it is just considered by some to be a "good practice" item. I figure that it is cheap enough to include it in terms of the entire install that it can't hurt. The theory is that in the event that you do get any kind of localized "hot spot" on the protector, the metal layer will act as a heat spreader and dissipate it over a wider area so that no single point will get as hot. The theory is sound, but I don't know how likely it is to get a hot spot in the first place - perhaps if you dropped a burning log or something?

Gooserider

 

[timfromohio]

Jayte - thanks for passing along anything you hear from Napolean.
Gooserider - thanks for input regarding the metal. I'm planning on using the durock/metal/durock sandwhich just to be extra safe.

Reading threads and getting feedback has given me to confidence to tackle this project! This is a great forum.

The 1400 is a nice stove - we looked at it also but wanted something a bit smaller.

 

[jtrm]

Sorry it has taken so long to get back. On Monday we had the final touches done on the installment of our Napolean 1400. We are doing a couple of small hot fires to break it in but so far life is good.

The building inspector never got back to me so I went and used the earlier advice and placed 1/2 inch of durock, then steel, and then another 1/2 inch of durock coverd by porcelin tile. It looks great. The only sheet metal I could find at near the hearth size was 26 g and the man installing the stove indicated that 24 g would make people happier and so I doubled up the the sheet metal inside the durock sandwich. Thanks again Gooserider for the ideas. I gave the installer a copy of the durock info sheet and he smiled.

Now comes the time of the learning curve.. This is our first stove. But it feels good...

pax

jayte

 

[Gooserider]

Congratulations... Followed by the usual call for PICTURES!! :cheese:

Gooserider

 

[jtrm]

Life is good and we're staying warm... we even opened an upstairs windows last night. I see it is going to take a bit of time to find the balance.

We will also be tinkering a bit to make the right fit it terms of asthetics. I'm about 3-4 inches beyond clearance on side walls and so they just get just slightly a little warm to the touch. Have not yet decided what I'm going to do with them... maybe tile or maybe a mural. I also need to move that the cable wire. The left half wall is the top of a stare case which I plan to take down and put up wrought iron or a bar railing to help with air flow and open up that area.

I'm also thinking of experimenting with a 10 feet or so of 6"dryer tubing and a vent push fan to see if I might be able to get a little bit of the heat to move down the stairs to the one bedroom there.... but that is yet a time a way. I know you can't really move hot air down but maybe the natural laws of physic will cut me a little slack on this one. We did not count on any downstairs effect from the stove so anything we get would be gravy.

I guess the only real difficulty I've had is that I sometimes find my self getting lost watching the fire dance.... and the time passes too quickly.

thanks again for the suggestions.

pax
jayte