Danno77
Minister of Fire
how about traipsing out there with a deep cycle battery in hand and hooking it up to a power inverter to plug your tractor into for an hour or so? OR park this thing in the garage and throw wife's car into the barn.
Tips for starting a diesel tractor in cold weather
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Highbeam
Minister of Fire
A block heater is usually around 1000 watts of 110 power. If you divide 1000 by 12 volts, you need 83 amps from that battery. Consider that leaving your headlights on is only about 9 amps of draw from a car battery, so running the block heater would be like powering 9 cars worth of headlights. It would knock that battery out in no time and you'd need some hefty cables. Also, the heater needs to run for several hours before it will warm the engine. You're better off with a small genset IF the tractor is even equipped with a block heater which is not likely.
I wonder what ever happened to the OP.
I wonder what ever happened to the OP.
Danno77
Minister of Fire
you darned people and your fancy math. lol. So most batteries would crank out (i dunno, cause i've never checked) something like 100Ah at 20 hours, so you'd only get yourself 1:15 of heating time. I think they say to plug in your diesel truck about 2 hours before running it, so you'd be close, but it's probably not good to drain a deep cycle that fast. I dunno.Highbeam said:
SolarAndWood
Minister of Fire
I use ether in my similar vintage Ford when its cold. It doesn't complain any more than usual and my starter is a lot happier. The hydraulics are another story. If its single digits or colder, I have to let it run for 30-45 mins before the loader will move. If it fit under the garage door, I might consider tossing my wifes car out.
UPDATE:
Went out yesterday and came back with some diesel 911. Put 16 oz. in a full tank. Saw on the directions to dump some in the fuel filter. Did not do this as i did not want to mess something else up. Anyway... damned thing wouldn't start. Same deal happened a couple weeks ago. Soon as it warmed up some, it started fine. Needed a jumpstart also as tractor hasn't been run in 3 weeks.
Seriously considering bringing it down to the garage.
Note to wife: Sorry honey, you're car's gonna have to sit outside for the remainder of the winter. Don't worry, it's a Honda and tthe heater works great!
Went out yesterday and came back with some diesel 911. Put 16 oz. in a full tank. Saw on the directions to dump some in the fuel filter. Did not do this as i did not want to mess something else up. Anyway... damned thing wouldn't start. Same deal happened a couple weeks ago. Soon as it warmed up some, it started fine. Needed a jumpstart also as tractor hasn't been run in 3 weeks.
Seriously considering bringing it down to the garage.
Note to wife: Sorry honey, you're car's gonna have to sit outside for the remainder of the winter. Don't worry, it's a Honda and tthe heater works great!
That 911 stuff works well but somehow you have to get it into the lines not just sitting in the tank hence the reason putting some in the filter. Just used a bottle of it last Sat. damn truck froze up on the freeway and shut down completely. It was in the single digits plus running down the road at 65mph fuel line froze due to moisture after about 1.5 hours on the road, fortunately I didn't have to bleed the injector lines. Once I got it running again it was good to go the rest of the trip.
flyingcow
Minister of Fire
leftyscott said:
Thats a lot in a small tank. i usually put that much in 75 to 100gals of diesel, been yrs since gelled up(trailer trk gelled up, i use methanol). But if its above 0 and 16 ounces didn't help, dunno, you got other problems. Is it cranking over? and if so, is it turning over quickly?
Now as a preventive measure, i'll put fuel treatment(power service) in on a night like tonite. I've got a 400 mile run, looking at about -15 tonite. First really cold nite this year. I put a qt of fuel(in each 100g al tank) conditioner that has antigel properties in it. And usaully thats the only time i do it in the winter. Gets rid of any water floating around.
Deere10
New Member
Back to basics Does this trctor have glow plugs?Is there a indicator lite on the dash? Does it come on? How far is it from an outlet? May not be able to power a block heater off a long run of ext cords but may be a ble to power a portable kero heater or even a propane type heater right off tank. But stay near by so nothing bad happens( tank tip over n catch stuff on fire etc)I have a diesel truck hasnt been started in 3 weeks also kept in garage w no heat hit the glo plugs twice yesterday n took rite off at 15 degrees has been 0 or below for the past 3 days. Use power service in the white bottle all the time and you will never have a fuel gell issue. Be very careful using 911, have heard of horror stories by people using that. Some injector pumps do not like 911 properties.. If it is cranking over good it needs so heat to get it to fire off. In the off season consider running power to the barn. Keep us updated Thanks
I'm not sure if my Ford 2600 has glow plugs or not. This is my first winter with this tractor. What I did find was that there is already an engine heater there. So I towed it down to my garage and plugged the sucker in. The wire around the plug looks pretty worn and frayed. It's been plugged in a couple hours but I can't tell if it's working. Engine block is still cool. Will keep it plugged in overnight and check it in the morning. Of course, it's supposed to warm up tomorrow so it may work itself out ike it did last time.
Appreciate all the advice and suggestions.
Appreciate all the advice and suggestions.
SolarAndWood
Minister of Fire
leftyscott said:
Does the key turn both ways? If you have them, they are probably right on top of the cylinders with a thin piece of steel connecting them. My tractor is a series newer and they are still manually activated. I don't think twice about using ether unless someone else is close enough to turn the key the wrong way.
Another thing that the old timers would do here in the woods of Maine is to drain the oil every night and heat it up on the wood stove with their breakfast. Adding the "boiling" oil back into the engine accomplishes nearly the same thing as the newer engine oil pan heaters.
In my opinion the most effective engine heaters for a diesel tractor are what they are now calling a "tank type" engine heater. This is probably what you have and it is essentially a big electric heating element enclosed in a tube about 3 inches in diameter. These don't have a pump in them, so they need to be installed correctly for them to thermo-siphon the coolant in the water jacket of the engine. They are essentially drawing coolant from the drain plug on the side of the block, and since hot coolant rises returning it to a fitting near the top of the motor, typically near the water pump. Typically there is a big arrow stamped or printed on the side of the heater which means "this end up" and they don't work as well if they are lying on their side or just sort of dangling from the hoses. I recommend getting the biggest model at 1500 watts just because a diesel tractor, especially of that vintage, has an enormous amount of thermal mass. At moderate temperatures hovering near freezing two hours is more than enough to get the tractor to start well, even one with an ether habit, but this morning with temperatures on the wrong side of zero it will take 5 hours to be sure of starting.
I suspect that your engine heater is burned out since two hours didn't do anything for you. These type of engine heaters will be warm to the touch in just a few minutes, and the hose coming out of the top will be too hot to hold in 15 minutes. When the hose returning to the bottom of the heater is warm your tractor will start. They also make a satisfying sizzle sound when you start them up. So if you need the tractor running the $50 to $70 for a new heater may be worth it.
And your barn is way overdue for some electricity ;-)
In my opinion the most effective engine heaters for a diesel tractor are what they are now calling a "tank type" engine heater. This is probably what you have and it is essentially a big electric heating element enclosed in a tube about 3 inches in diameter. These don't have a pump in them, so they need to be installed correctly for them to thermo-siphon the coolant in the water jacket of the engine. They are essentially drawing coolant from the drain plug on the side of the block, and since hot coolant rises returning it to a fitting near the top of the motor, typically near the water pump. Typically there is a big arrow stamped or printed on the side of the heater which means "this end up" and they don't work as well if they are lying on their side or just sort of dangling from the hoses. I recommend getting the biggest model at 1500 watts just because a diesel tractor, especially of that vintage, has an enormous amount of thermal mass. At moderate temperatures hovering near freezing two hours is more than enough to get the tractor to start well, even one with an ether habit, but this morning with temperatures on the wrong side of zero it will take 5 hours to be sure of starting.
I suspect that your engine heater is burned out since two hours didn't do anything for you. These type of engine heaters will be warm to the touch in just a few minutes, and the hose coming out of the top will be too hot to hold in 15 minutes. When the hose returning to the bottom of the heater is warm your tractor will start. They also make a satisfying sizzle sound when you start them up. So if you need the tractor running the $50 to $70 for a new heater may be worth it.
And your barn is way overdue for some electricity ;-)
Like I said earlier have one person turn the tractor over have another give quick shots of ether into the air cleaner.
That is what we used to do with our tractors. Now we had bigger tractors than what you have but it may still work. If you do this don't use a whole can trying to get the tractor
started. Just try it a few times and see if it works. You may need to run a cord out to the barn and plug the tractor in probably should have done that first. Another thing you could
try if you have a torch try warming thefuel pump or fuel filter or filters if you have two. The warmer the fuel is the easier it will fire also.
That is what we used to do with our tractors. Now we had bigger tractors than what you have but it may still work. If you do this don't use a whole can trying to get the tractor
started. Just try it a few times and see if it works. You may need to run a cord out to the barn and plug the tractor in probably should have done that first. Another thing you could
try if you have a torch try warming thefuel pump or fuel filter or filters if you have two. The warmer the fuel is the easier it will fire also.
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
Block heaters take longer than 2 hours to do the job. Even when they are working don't expect to feel the heat on the engine. They just warm the engine, not heat it hot. There are many types of block heaters in use. Some are harder to install than others so you will see the DIY guys with these hokey tank or hose types and you will see more pro installs using an actual OEM freeze plug type that replaces a freeze plug with the block heater so that the electric element is right next to the cylinders in the water jacket. When my ford truck's OEM 1000watt blockheater has been on for three hours the gauge just barely moves from dead cold. This is typical for a block heater.
Remember guys, this is Arkansas, like way down south. I see lots of Maine and NY guys worrying about gelled fuel and such but the tractor is in the tropics.
Remember guys, this is Arkansas, like way down south. I see lots of Maine and NY guys worrying about gelled fuel and such but the tractor is in the tropics.
The tractor we are talking about is a 38 horsepower 3 cylinder diesel. A 1500 watt heater will bring that up to a startable temperature in 2 hours when you are talking about overnight temps down in the 20's. There is nowhere near as much thermal mass as a 7.3L 8 cylinder engineHighbeam said:
This is why I like the "hokey" tank type heaters, you can feel the output hose and see if they are working. The block won't get warm to the touch like when it has been running.
Freeze plug heaters do have their place in some applications, but I have found that the water pump is still going to be running in below zero coolant with those type, and that can damage seals in the water pump. So I use these "hokey" tank type heaters that circulate the coolant. Cat wouldn't warranty the water pump on my Peterbilt when a cold start ate the seals, even though I was using the factory installed freeze plug heater.
One last advantage to the tank type heaters is that they are universally available here in Maine. I can walk into any auto parts store and leave with one in my hand. I use them on all my trucks and tractors. These heaters will last about 3 seasons on my daily use equipment, and when a vehicle won't start on a cold windy day because the heater has failed I can't very well wait for spring so I can start the vehicle, drive it into a heated shop, and then drain the coolant to change the freeze plug heater. I can however swap out a tank type heater in 20 minutes while wearing gloves with a screwdriver and two pairs of vice-grips to clamp off the coolant flow.
You are of course welcome to your own opinion highbeam, but what works for you doesn't always work for the next person.
Cowboy Billy
Minister of Fire
A diesel is a "compression ignition" engine. Which means the compression starts the fuel burning in cylinder rather than a spark plug like in a gas engine. You did not say how many hours are on the tractor. But the less compression you have the harder it will be to start. If the engine has a lot of blow by it is very likely the compression is low. A good way to see how much blow you have is to pull the cap off of oil fill while it is running and see how much air is coming out.
Compressing air makes heat which starts the fuel burning. If the engine is cranking over slow it gives the rings more time to leak losing compression. Also the battery can not put out as much power when it is cold up in canada they actually have heated battery covers that plug into 110v that heat the battery.
Make sure that you have a good battery and that the connections are good. Including where the negative cable hooks to the tractor. Also where the starter bolts to the tractor. The starter itself has to be in good condition so it can spin the engine easily. The faster you can spin the engine the better it will start. All glow plugs really do is create a "hot spot" which make it easier to start the fuel burning.
I have a 1990's JD 450 dozer without glow plugs that when I got it three years ago it would start faster than my car down to 5 deg F with no problem. Now that the battery's are older they do not have as much capacity. And I have to put a battery charger on it if it is less than 20 deg F. To get it to spin over fast enough to start.
I also have a 2001 kubota B21 diesel with glow plugs and bad blow by (low compression) That is a bear to start below 40 degs, And has to have a great battery in it or it will not start.
Another issue for hard starting is a worn injector pump and or injectors. Injectors spray out a fine mist of fuel that vaporizes easily. No fuel burns unless it is a vapor. If the injector pump is worn the fuel pressure drops. As the fuel pressure drops you start getting drops of fuel rather than a mist and the drops do not vaporize very well. The same thing if the passages in the injector are worn it starts spraying out larger drops. There is also a check valve in the injector that is supposed to hold the fuel back until the pressure comes up. Dirt or wear on the check valve can keep it from coming up to pressure. Typically fuel pressure in a injector runs 1500 to 2200 psi. It needs that to work. As it sprays directly into the cylinder as the fuel is burning and has to over come all the pressure in the cylinder that is pushing the piston down.
Either is not very good in a diesel. While some have either injection built in but it is carefully controlled. Spraying it in from a can is not. Also either takes the oil off of the cylinder walls wearing out the rings. Which is why some engines when started on either get to the point that you have to start it with either. And with all the compression in a diesel it tends to explode rather than burn. Two years ago I blew the head gasket on my loader from diesel. Which is why I started looking for a better way to start it when cold.
I have been told using propane is much better for starting a diesel. But I haven't tried it yet. I do know that some big diesels use propane injection while running to boost horsepower. Just like using nitrous on a race car.
Another thing I just found out about but have not tried. Is taking a hair dryer turning it on hot and letting it blow into the intake. It makes sense to me as since the mid 90's Ford has used heater coils in the intake to warm the air up before it goes into the engine.
Block heaters you know about. And the engine oil heaters that warm the oil and makes it easier to spin the engine over.
Good luck
Billy
~
Compressing air makes heat which starts the fuel burning. If the engine is cranking over slow it gives the rings more time to leak losing compression. Also the battery can not put out as much power when it is cold up in canada they actually have heated battery covers that plug into 110v that heat the battery.
Make sure that you have a good battery and that the connections are good. Including where the negative cable hooks to the tractor. Also where the starter bolts to the tractor. The starter itself has to be in good condition so it can spin the engine easily. The faster you can spin the engine the better it will start. All glow plugs really do is create a "hot spot" which make it easier to start the fuel burning.
I have a 1990's JD 450 dozer without glow plugs that when I got it three years ago it would start faster than my car down to 5 deg F with no problem. Now that the battery's are older they do not have as much capacity. And I have to put a battery charger on it if it is less than 20 deg F. To get it to spin over fast enough to start.
I also have a 2001 kubota B21 diesel with glow plugs and bad blow by (low compression) That is a bear to start below 40 degs, And has to have a great battery in it or it will not start.
Another issue for hard starting is a worn injector pump and or injectors. Injectors spray out a fine mist of fuel that vaporizes easily. No fuel burns unless it is a vapor. If the injector pump is worn the fuel pressure drops. As the fuel pressure drops you start getting drops of fuel rather than a mist and the drops do not vaporize very well. The same thing if the passages in the injector are worn it starts spraying out larger drops. There is also a check valve in the injector that is supposed to hold the fuel back until the pressure comes up. Dirt or wear on the check valve can keep it from coming up to pressure. Typically fuel pressure in a injector runs 1500 to 2200 psi. It needs that to work. As it sprays directly into the cylinder as the fuel is burning and has to over come all the pressure in the cylinder that is pushing the piston down.
Either is not very good in a diesel. While some have either injection built in but it is carefully controlled. Spraying it in from a can is not. Also either takes the oil off of the cylinder walls wearing out the rings. Which is why some engines when started on either get to the point that you have to start it with either. And with all the compression in a diesel it tends to explode rather than burn. Two years ago I blew the head gasket on my loader from diesel. Which is why I started looking for a better way to start it when cold.
I have been told using propane is much better for starting a diesel. But I haven't tried it yet. I do know that some big diesels use propane injection while running to boost horsepower. Just like using nitrous on a race car.
Another thing I just found out about but have not tried. Is taking a hair dryer turning it on hot and letting it blow into the intake. It makes sense to me as since the mid 90's Ford has used heater coils in the intake to warm the air up before it goes into the engine.
Block heaters you know about. And the engine oil heaters that warm the oil and makes it easier to spin the engine over.
Good luck
Billy
~
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
"Another thing I just found out about but have not tried. Is taking a hair dryer turning it on hot and letting it blow into the intake. It makes sense to me as since the mid 90’s Ford has used heater coils in the intake to warm the air up before it goes into the engine."
You're probably thinking about cummins motors in dodge trucks that use an intake heater grid rather than glow plugs. The 90s and some 2000 ford trucks do have a dinky coil in the intake to heat the air but it will not come on if the glow plugs are on and only comes on after a long idle period. That coil is not involved at all with cold starts on Fords, GPs only.
All block heaters will add heat to the system and each has their own advantages. There is a reason that the OEM uses actual in the block block heaters and not tank heaters or those ones that you clamp into a radiator hose. True, they all work and on a tractor like this that isn't a critical item they all should be fine. You might be surprised at the mass of the 38 HP ford diesel. A cummins truck engine is pretty light weight and these tractors, mine is 30 HP, weigh 4500 lbs. Castings are big, and heavy as the iron often makes up the structural frame of the tractor.
I had a tank style block heater on my last international bulldozer and it did gurgle and pop when plugged in. That was nice to know it was working. What I didn't like was the extra hoses required to install it, the extra connections to the engine that can leak, the dangly tank that is subject to snagging on brush and causing a breakdown. Yes, it did work and was a cheapo way to get block heat.
You're probably thinking about cummins motors in dodge trucks that use an intake heater grid rather than glow plugs. The 90s and some 2000 ford trucks do have a dinky coil in the intake to heat the air but it will not come on if the glow plugs are on and only comes on after a long idle period. That coil is not involved at all with cold starts on Fords, GPs only.
All block heaters will add heat to the system and each has their own advantages. There is a reason that the OEM uses actual in the block block heaters and not tank heaters or those ones that you clamp into a radiator hose. True, they all work and on a tractor like this that isn't a critical item they all should be fine. You might be surprised at the mass of the 38 HP ford diesel. A cummins truck engine is pretty light weight and these tractors, mine is 30 HP, weigh 4500 lbs. Castings are big, and heavy as the iron often makes up the structural frame of the tractor.
I had a tank style block heater on my last international bulldozer and it did gurgle and pop when plugged in. That was nice to know it was working. What I didn't like was the extra hoses required to install it, the extra connections to the engine that can leak, the dangly tank that is subject to snagging on brush and causing a breakdown. Yes, it did work and was a cheapo way to get block heat.
My MF1010 hydro tractor stays in an unelectrified barn except in the winter when I move it to a spot where I get get jiuce to the blockheater.
High compression combined with thick engine oil will defeat the battery everytime when starting in the cold - it just won't crank fast enough or long enough.
I've also successfully jumpstarted from my pickup truck.
If It's cranking OK and won't fire, it may be moisture in the fuel ( at least my diesel and suspect all are very sensitive to this unlike gas engines which will run right thru a little moisture).
Find your fuel bowl, shut off the line,remove the bowl and fill it 50/50 with diesel and "Diesel 911" . Replace the bowl and it should start. You may have to bleed the fuel lines first.
In the future, keep the fuel toppped off to prevent condnesation in the tank.
You've really got to get to the fuel bowl because thats where the moisture is, dumping it in the tank won't help.
High compression combined with thick engine oil will defeat the battery everytime when starting in the cold - it just won't crank fast enough or long enough.
I've also successfully jumpstarted from my pickup truck.
If It's cranking OK and won't fire, it may be moisture in the fuel ( at least my diesel and suspect all are very sensitive to this unlike gas engines which will run right thru a little moisture).
Find your fuel bowl, shut off the line,remove the bowl and fill it 50/50 with diesel and "Diesel 911" . Replace the bowl and it should start. You may have to bleed the fuel lines first.
In the future, keep the fuel toppped off to prevent condnesation in the tank.
You've really got to get to the fuel bowl because thats where the moisture is, dumping it in the tank won't help.
rowerwet
Minister of Fire
careful with the Ether, recently I was at a shop where they maintain ground equipment for the airport, they have a couple old 12 cyl dual turbo diesel powered air start carts for starting jet engines. Someone added Ether to the engine on a cold morning and blew the heads off the engine! also blew all the gaskets out of the intake system and all the access doors to the engine. Of course no one knew who did it...
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