TO DRAIN OR NOT?

[firebroad]

Okay, I'm confused. Bear in mind, I have only had a gas powered chainsaw for a short time, (Stihl 180be) so I don't know too much. I don't process my own wood as a rule, so most of my use is for the occasional downed tree/limbs, and shortening/modifying long splits.
The manual states that part of the preparation to store the equipment entails running the engine dry of fuel. From some of the posts I have read here, this is a bad idea. Who is right? Why is one practice better than the other?

I do have to admit that I stopped draining the mower and tractor for the winter, as I do use them intermittently in the cold months, (chopping up leaves, hauling stuff etc.), so I use Stabil in the fuel and do not have a problem. I have also just started using Star Tron to help keep the water molecules from breaking away from the ethanol in the gas.

What's the verdict? Should I be draining for long storage or not? P.S., I do not yet know how to clean a carburetor.

 

[firefighterjake]

This is quickly becoming one of the great debates . . . right up there with Ford vs. Chevy, Steel vs. Cast Iron vs. Soapstone, Cat vs. Non-Cat, Vertical Splitting vs. Horizontal Splitting.

All I can say is that what has worked for me with zero issues so far . . . but this is all just my personal experience . . . is that with all of my equipment -- two stroke and four stroke -- if I'm not going to be running it for several months I use Star Tron to stabilize the fuel. I have yet to ever drain any fuel from any of my tools and toys -- splitter, chainsaw, weedbeater, snowmobile, ATV, lawn tractor, etc.

 

[MasterMech]

Depends on how long you intend to store it. If it's going to sit for 3 months or less, you're fine. 3-6 months with treated fuel, you're still fine. Longer than that depends on how/where it will be stored. I don't do anything special until I'm putting something away for more than 6 months.

Regarding the manual/emptying tank; I haven't been hurt following manufacturer's guidelines yet.

 

[firebroad]

Thanks, Jake & MM...
I think my concerns stemmed from what I perceived to be a carb problem with running the gas dry. I must have misunderstood.

One side note, I noticed in the literature for the Startron that the "gunk" may initially cause "plugging or loading of fuel filters", and to have extra filters handy. Oh, joy. The only thing I hate more than trying to reach the ridiculously placed zerks on my lawn tractor, is trying to replace that little %&*# fuel filter. Any way to get those tiny clips on and off the hose without tearing the thing up?

 

[MasterMech]

Good set of linemen pliers. Wide flat nose. If the filter gets stuck in the line, twist the filter in the hose to un-stick it then use needle nose pliers to "push" the hose off the barb rather than trying to pull it.

You'll only get junk in the filter if it was in the tank to begin with. Flashlight will tell you all you need to know. If their is junk in the tank/line, then no chemical additive I know of is going to help you. I think they just need to cover their arse.

 

[HatCityIAFF]

Myself, I don't run anything dry. My Scag walk behind, Stihl trimmer, and Stihl saw all have gas with stabil in them in the summer/winter months. Last use of the season, I just turn them off like I would during the summer. Probably twice during winter, maybe January and late Feb/March, I'll run them for 15 min or so just to circulate some gas and get them up to running temp. Have been doing this forever and never run into a problem.

NOW, at the firehouse, our full time mechanics have a different thought on things. We have some gas hydraulic pumps (to run the jaws of life etc..), and gas ventilation fans. These all have fuel shut off switches. THEY say to never shut them off, but turn the fuel off and let them run out of fuel. There reasoning is so the carbs dont' get gummed up with gas when there sitting there. I can see that, but we run these every 3 days for 10 minutes just to check them. We also have rotary saws and ventilation saws, but these are run every morning and stored with gas in them (for obvious reasons).

so I would say take it with a grain of salt, and do whatever makes you feel best.

 

[HittinSteel]

I've read with amusement some of the posts about running the saw dry causing damage.....it's almost like some believe as the saw dies at idle, the piston and cylinder magically loose all lubrication.

For long term storage, if you want to run your saws dry before storing them to protect against the ill effects of ethanol, then simply follow the directions of the people at Stihl.

 

[MasterMech]

For long term storage, if you want to run your saws dry before storing them to protect against the ill effects of ethanol, then simply follow the directions of the people at Stihl.

Or Husqvarna, Echo, Redmax, Shindawa, etc. (Insert your brand of equipment)

 

[wkpoor]

Seems we have people on here that think the ethanol thing is a fars. I agree, don't do anything at all. Just put them away like you last run them. You'll be fine

 

[HatCityIAFF]

i do vagely remember reading through the owners manual for the new kawasaki 17hp motor i put on my Scag last year, due to a seized motor from previous owner, and I think it said any "long term" storage, (how long is that?) run it out of gas dry, take the spark plugs out, and put a bit of motor oil in there. then turn the engine over a couple of times to coat the inside of the cylinders, and put the plugs back in. It said this helps with corrosion inside the cylinders when not running.

i still just shut it off and leave it for the winter.

 

[LLigetfa]

Seems we have people on here that think the ethanol thing is a fars. I agree, don't do anything at all. Just put them away like you last run them. You'll be fine

Ja, it worked well for me. My 30 something year old saw is still running strong.

 

[moody]

i have 4 differant Shindawia products. one for 18 years and i have been using Shindawia fuel mix with fuel stabelizer the whole time, i have zero problems in leaving fuel in them or running them dry, prime it and they start on the first or second pull.my dealer said not to worry about leaving fuel in them as long as you use shindawia oil mix because it has fuel stableizer in it. now on my gas powered walk behind lawnmowers i put fuel stableizer in the gas and it helps a lot. My brotherinlaw works on small engines an he said the new fuel is keeping really busy because the ethanol drys up the fuel lines an primer buttons an causes them to break or shrink an it causes varnishing in the carberator an stuck needle valves. he tells everybody to put stable in there fuel. he is working on stuff less than a year old where people did not put fuel stabeizer in gas, an the old gas does not hardly have any smell to it because it has gone bad in 4 or 5 months not in use. Everyone pays a lot for there tools so take care of them an they will take care of you.

 

[kevin j]

I avoid the ethanol which is more problem then bad gas. I use premium non oxy fuel, sythteic oil. 4 cycle, shut off fuel and leave it for 2-4 months. If winter, I do run it until it dies. two cycle dump, run until it dies, but usually I am running it within 2-3 months.

Letting it lean out and die won't hurt a two cycle. someones old myth, because it refvs up briefly as it leans out and dies . It takes many seconds before all the oil films in the crankcase are gone. An old SAE paper showed traces still coming through as long as 15 minutes, on a motorcycle engine idling. not under load of course.

 

[MasterMech]

I avoid the ethanol which is more problem then bad gas. I use premium non oxy fuel, sythteic oil. 4 cycle, shut off fuel and leave it for 2-4 months. If winter, I do run it until it dies. two cycle dump, run until it dies, but usually I am running it within 2-3 months.

Letting it lean out and die won't hurt a two cycle. someones old myth, because it refvs up briefly as it leans out and dies . It takes many seconds before all the oil films in the crankcase are gone. An old SAE paper showed traces still coming through as long as 15 minutes, on a motorcycle engine idling. not under load of course.

Unfortunately Kevin, most of the US doesn't have access to non-oxygenated or other ethanol free fuel at the local gas-station. Ethanol isn't the monster in the closet some make it out to be but there are some rule changes when it comes to storing the stuff.

 

[LLigetfa]

Letting it lean out and die won't hurt a two cycle. someones old myth, because it refvs up briefly as it leans out and dies...

I love how stuff gets taken out of context and taken to extremes. I made a comment about shutting off a fuel starved saw in the middle of a cut to be kind to the engine and it turns into an accusation of perpetuating a myth or old wives tale. There is a world of difference between working a saw hard (WOT) in a cut as it leans out from starvation and a saw that sputters and stops at idle. SHEESH!

The way the fuel pickup works in the tank, one would never suck the last drop of gas out and so the only way to completely empty the tank is to remove the cap and shake it out. So then, do you dump it on the ground (OMG!) or catch it for reuse? If you catch it for reuse, you are more likely to get dirt in it.

Also, IMHO a saw that stops at idle from starvation won't completely empty the carb either. The small amount now exposed to air is more likely to varnish.

 

[wkpoor]

Ja, it worked well for me. My 30 something year old saw is still running strong.

Guess I got to ask you a question. 30yrs and it works for you. Do you have oxygenated fuels up there. If not then how can you say what works for you should be working for everyone else. There is a reason why ethanol free fuel is sold at marinas. It corrodes aluminum fuel tanks and rots rubber.

 

[velvetfoot]

I've been draining.
Who'd a thought it'd be so hard to get the fuel out of the late-model lawn tractor though; not even a fuel shutoff.

 

[LLigetfa]

Do you have oxygenated fuels up there...

Dunno whats in it really... gas is gas. Never lost sleep over it, never did a lab analysis, never drained it, never added Stabil or Yak P... I just swipe my card and squeeze the handle. It's the same stuff I put in the car. Last few years I've been buying it in Northern Minnesota just across the border.

Go out of your way to buy AvGas if it works for you. Rotate your stock so it's always fresh. Ad Stabil or Yak P... if you need it. I just think all this talk of ethanol is mostly mass hysteria for the most part with perhaps a smidgen of truth. For the record, I do believe that it may deteriorate some primer bulbs, fuel lines, bowl floats, etc. but except for the plastic float on my mower's gas gauge that sunk, I have not personally experienced it. My 25 year old weed whacker's primer bulb is starting to discolour and stiffen but hey, it is 25 years old and I've never drained it or ran it dry for storage.

 

[MasterMech]

Guess I got to ask you a question. 30yrs and it works for you. Do you have oxygenated fuels up there. If not then how can you say what works for you should be working for everyone else. There is a reason why ethanol free fuel is sold at marinas. It corrodes aluminum fuel tanks and rots rubber.

One of the main reasons Ethanol blended fuels are unpopular with mariners is that most of the trouble associated with Ethanol blended fuels (phase separation, aluminum corrosion, etc) occurs when significant quantities of water enter the fuel supply. I can't imagine that ever happening on a boat. As for the deterioration of natural rubber, well, that pain is shared universally. Ethanol in the fuel (at least the quantity found in automotive fuel) has little to do with the issue of running a saw lean and losing lubrication while it runs out of fuel.

I agree that running a saw at WOT under load under lean running conditions is not a good idea, however in the 10-15 seconds max that it takes a saw to run out of fuel under those conditions, you are not going to lose the protective oil film and you are not going to generate enough extra heat to hurt anything. You could straight-gas a saw (which is just about the worst thing you could do to a two-stroke for lubrication purposes other than just spoon feeding it dirt) and it would run a LOT longer than 15 seconds. I've seen 'em go through 1/2 tank or better.

Again, I want to point out that almost every manufacturer recommends running the engine dry for storage. I have never seen an owner's manual or workshop/service manual (for small hand-held 2-cycles) that warns of the dangers of running the engine out of fuel.

 

[MasterMech]

... I just think all this talk of ethanol is mostly mass hysteria for the most part with perhaps a smidgen of truth...

Fuel problems have always been an issue for small-engines and now there's a convenient scapegoat for all the money people spend on repair work. Hell, I've heard car mechanics blame fuel system failures on the stuff. Cars... that get refilled once a week, give or take.

 

[wkpoor]

Dunno whats in it really... gas is gas. Never lost sleep over it, never did a lab analysis, never drained it, never added Stabil or Yak P... I just swipe my card and squeeze the handle. It's the same stuff I put in the car. Last few years I've been buying it in Northern Minnesota just across the border.

Go out of your way to buy AvGas if it works for you. Rotate your stock so it's always fresh. Ad Stabil or Yak P... if you need it. I just think all this talk of ethanol is mostly mass hysteria for the most part with perhaps a smidgen of truth. For the record, I do believe that it may deteriorate some primer bulbs, fuel lines, bowl floats, etc. but except for the plastic float on my mower's gas gauge that sunk, I have not personally experienced it. My 25 year old weed whacker's primer bulb is starting to discolour and stiffen but hey, it is 25 years old and I've never drained it or ran it dry for storage.

I am the exception. I don't go out of my way to get AvGas because I work at the airport. But the fact that AvGas exists beggs the question. If pump gas is just fine as you say why do you think they make it? (I'm being rhetorical as I know why but you have to ask yourself why they would make the stuff if pump gas is as good as you say it is.) An remember these modern EPA fuels do work well in cars today that are all EFI. Our OPE is not.

 

[MasterMech]

I am the exception. I don't go out of my way to get AvGas because I work at the airport. But the fact that AvGas exists beggs the question. If pump gas is just fine as you say why do you think they make it? (I'm being rhetorical as I know why but you have to ask yourself why they would make the stuff if pump gas is as good as you say it is.) An remember these modern EPA fuels do work well in cars today that are all EFI. Our OPE is not.

I'd venture to guess the reason AvGas exists has more to do with the requirements of aviation engines built decades ago and today being very different than our little OPE engines and today's automobile rather than it being a superior fuel in our applications. Just a guess tho. That and changing anything on an airplane requires more paperwork than wrench time. So why not fly the same fuel/technology they have been for decades? 100LL makes a lot of sense for an engine built in the 60's or prior that was engineered without the required metallurgy to run unleaded fuels. Sure the stuff stores a hell of a lot better than automotive fuel but I'm not to keen on breathing lead vapor in the exhaust of my saw/blower/trimmer/mower that discharges in close proximity to my face.

 

[wkpoor]

I'd venture to guess the reason AvGas exists has more to do with the requirements of aviation engines built decades ago and today being very different than our little OPE engines and today's automobile rather than it being a superior fuel in our applications. Just a guess tho. That and changing anything on an airplane requires more paperwork than wrench time. So why not fly the same fuel/technology they have been for decades? 100LL makes a lot of sense for an engine built in the 60's or prior that was engineered without the required metallurgy to run unleaded fuels. Sure the stuff stores a hell of a lot better than automotive fuel but I'm not to keen on breathing lead vapor in the exhaust of my saw/blower/trimmer/mower that discharges in close proximity to my face.

The lead is for pre-ignition. Apart from that the fuel has to keep well. Many general aviation planes set for months between flights. Can't imagine having to drain 6 dollar fuel and toss it just because its been in the tank a while. As far as I'm aware the fuel has no time restrictions. I've got some thats over 2yrs old and it still smells exactly like new and burns just fine. Pump gas today well stale in 6mos. The stuff I poured out of the OPE I'm working on looked and smelled like old gas and it was put in last fall.

 

[MasterMech]

The lead is for pre-ignition. Apart from that the fuel has to keep well. Many general aviation planes set for months between flights. Can't imagine having to drain 6 dollar fuel and toss it just because its been in the tank a while. As far as I'm aware the fuel has no time restrictions. I've got some thats over 2yrs old and it still smells exactly like new and burns just fine. Pump gas today well stale in 6mos. The stuff I poured out of the OPE I'm working on looked and smelled like old gas and it was put in last fall.

All gas likes to be stored in the dark in sealed containers. The lead does help with pre-ignition (one of many positive side-effects as far as the engine itself is concerned) but it's primary purpose is the same as it was in 60's-prior auto fuel. It controls valve seat/face wear by leaving a continuously replenished coating of lead deposits.

Just put my FIL's snowblower to sleep for the summer and the gas that was in the carb bowl smelled like varnish. Prob left over from the fall as we haven't had much call to use these units this year.

 

[ScotO]

I will yell you I have an uncle who works for a fuel company in the purchasing/selling department, and be gave me some.good facts on this modern gas. It is JUNK. And its about to get worse thanks to the EPA upping the ethanol content in pump gas to 15%. If your equipment gets used every 3-6 months, there's no real need to drain your gas from it. Longer than 6 months, the pump gas will phase seperate (the alcohol and water will settle to the bottom of the tank), and on start up of that equipment you will do damage to your equipment because it is getting a straight shot of alcohol. It doesn't take a genius to see how much worse the fuel mileage is in a vehicle with modern gas, for those that kept track of their mileage 5-6 years ago and still have the same low mileage vehicles today. The whole ethanol thing is a scam and we all are stuck in it. Brought to you by the lobbyists on Washington. Period......