Tonigh I get the real test

[Jerry_NJ]

I have had a good experience heating the whole house with my new Quadrafire 4100-I Insert, but it has all been optional. And, I have not made any real effort to keep the fire going all night, albeit with even a partial load at midnight the glass front is still hot to the touch at 8 AM in the morning.

Tonight at about 4 pm the "Fault Light" started flashing on my 15 year old geothermal heat pump thermostat .. down stairs on the unit the Air Flow red light was flashing... Changed filters and reset, same problem and no apparent air movement..not even the constant on fan action. Conclusion, the circulation fan is out. That may have been aggravated/caused by me installing a higher/denser air filter, gets more dust out, but puts more load on the fan, about a month ago.

Well, given my good wood heating play experience I decided to put off calling for a service tech, from a Waterfurnace dealer, until tomorrow. I'm sure all will be fine, but I now see myself getting up at about 4 am to throw a couple of fresh logs in the Insert. In the past I just had the HP set at 60 degrees, and when the Insert couldn't hold the temperature higher than that, the central cut on. Nice way to operate. I would then in the morning re-start the fire, still hot coals in the box, or not depending on how cold it was. If over 32 degrees, I would just let the HP take over and let the Insert cool down, and would clean out cold ash as needed.

So, with no central back-up we're completely dependent on wood heat. It is about 15 degrees outside at 7:30 pm, not sure where its headed, but I assume down but only a couple more degrees. I read 10 degrees this morning when I got up at about 8 am.

 

[Dix]

Hang in there Jerry, I'm sure you won't freeze !! Last night was colder than tonight is supposed to be !

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Now is the time for that thick oak split.

You should do fine.

It's down to 7 here.

Matt

 

[Jerry_NJ]

Yes, should make it fine, I've had several "dry runs" with the HP for back-up.

I have some well seasoned hardwood rounds, up to 8" in diameter. They burn a real long time with a nice controlled burn, and the coals are hot for hours too. I also hav some not-so-hard Eastern Red Cedar that do well in the "round" too.

 

[North of 60]

Jerry if your blower you are talking about is a squirrel cage type/centrifugal then there is less of a load put on your motor with a more efficient filter as it will move less air due to the restriction. Your amp draw actually goes down. Dont blame yourself. 15yrs... it was time to go. A centrifugal fan is not a positive placement type. IF there is an air restriction, that means there is less work for the motor to do. Kinda like spinnin its wheels. The motor may run a little warmer though as less air is passing it for cooling.

 

[Jerry_NJ]

NO60,

Thanks, the unit is a squirrel cage type. I was loaded with some input, from some not remembered past time, that a furnace filter that put too much resistance in the air path could cause the fan to overload. Thinking on what you say, the fan "blade" (blades in the cage) spin at a given speed (sync? to 60 hertz?) and less air available to move means less power needed to turn the cage? Would a blade (propeller) fan be the same? Strange, it seems counter intuitive.

Maybe the "bad" thing about a filter that puts more resistance in the air path, that is lets less air flow, this lower air flow reduces the efficiency of the heat exchanger (heat or cool) because there is less air moving across it. And, in the limit/failure, the system is designed to shut down as the compressor would overheat if the air stopped flowing, one might conclude the compressor would experience more work/wear when the fan is working but the filter (heavier or dirty) causes the fan to moves less air.

Yes, 15 years is pretty good, this three speed fan is running in low speed most of the cold and hot months 24/7. There is a theory that running constantly is less wear-and-tear than lots of off/on cycles...just like a light bulb. But, when there are long periods when the fan isn't needed, e.g., September/October and April/May, I turn it off.

 

[North of 60]

Yes, prop fans are a positive displacement. They will draw more current when restricted. Stay warm

 

[JerseyWreckDiver]

NO60,

Thanks, the unit is a squirrel cage type. I was loaded with some input, from some not remembered past time, that a furnace filter that put too much resistance in the air path could cause the fan to overload. Thinking on what you say, the fan "blade" (blades in the cage) spin at a given speed (sync? to 60 hertz?) and less air available to move means less power needed to turn the cage? Would a blade (propeller) fan be the same? Strange, it seems counter intuitive.

Maybe the "bad" thing about a filter that puts more resistance in the air path, that is lets less air flow, this lower air flow reduces the efficiency of the heat exchanger (heat or cool) because there is less air moving across it. And, in the limit/failure, the system is designed to shut down as the compressor would overheat if the air stopped flowing, one might conclude the compressor would experience more work/wear when the fan is working but the filter (heavier or dirty) causes the fan to moves less air.

Yes, 15 years is pretty good, this three speed fan is running in low speed most of the cold and hot months 24/7. There is a theory that running constantly is less wear-and-tear than lots of off/on cycles...just like a light bulb. But, when there are long periods when the fan isn't needed, e.g., September/October and April/May, I turn it off.

Jerry,

I agree with NO60, 15 years it was probably just time. Some of those units have a capacitor start, in which case it could be just the capacitor that needs replacing... You definitely didn't do anything wrong with the filter, the better filters do not restrict the air flow at all, they are pleated, giving you twice the surface area so they don't change the air flow. Just make sure you change them on a monthly basis when they are in peak use, too many people make the mistake of waiting till you can visibly see buildup on it, then your restricting air flow... In fact, if you were using one of those cheesy blue filters all the morons tell you gives you better, unrestricted air flow, you may have let so much dust get through over fifteen years your evaporator coil may be clogged.

Where are you in NJ? I'm up in the mountains of the Northwest corner, near Sparta.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

So how did you make out?

Matt

 

[fishinpa]

I too am curious on how the house was this morning, & did you sleep through or actually get up & re-load during the night?

2'd Q: How large is the house, what type of layout and how many sqf? (Just and 'in general' question here)

 

[Jerry_NJ]

Well, we're doing ok, but my model may not be the best for most.

Being an older guy, I have to get up a couple of time a night to visit the toilet, so no alarm needed. So, my strategy rather than trying to load the firebox (2 cu feet) full of hardwood, I'd simple do my usual and put in a couple of big chunks and crank the air back a good bit, not all the way.

End result, running at about 200 degrees with fan on near top speed at 8 am. Outside air up to 20 degrees. Rooms near insert in low 60s. Upstairs, about 58 degrees.

Its now cranked up with fresh wood (now my new problem is getting ash out without giving the insert time to cool off...guess I'll have to dump a lot of hot coals), Insert at 400 degrees and climbing.

The history: I got up twice, once about 3 hours after going to bed. Checking I found the midnight load still running well, air cranked back but running at 300 degrees or more. Outside air about 15 degrees, rooms near insert in low 60s. I put in one small piece of wood, this was not a needed reload time. Then at about 6 am, came down and was basically down to a full bed of coals, insert temp just a bit over 100 degrees, fan still running. I spent about 15 minutes this time re-firing with fresh wood (no kindling - some small splits/rounds). THen cranked air back and went back to bed. Yes, I am off today, as usual, retired. When I got up at 8 am, the stove was again back to coals, but this time real hot coals, insertt at about 200 degrees. I threw in some new wood splits and a few small rounds, and away we go. Now the insert is at 500 degrees. Room with Insert now 63 and climbing.

The house is a two story, almost cross section about 1000 sq per floor (2000 sq ft). It was built in 1985 as an "all electric" so it has R38 in the ceiling and R19 walls, but it does have a lot of glass, all double glass - old Andersen technology. Open circular pattern, except for one story side room for laundry and study leading to garage. A good layout for natural airflow, still I'm sure the central forced air system with the circulation fan running helps, but not now, that's what went out.

I expect to see the house back to 70 in the area of the insert: large country living room, front foyer, dinning room. Maybe 65 in the eat-in kitchen and 60 in the back laundry/study room connecting to the garage, we'll use a portable electric heater as needed back there.

I'll call Waterfurnace soon, give them a few minutes to get their first cup of coffee down. I plan to call the factory regional rep first to discuss which deal withing 30 miles of me might be the best to have any needed parts on hand, and what he can do should they have to be shipped here.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Jerry, I am wondering about how you've worded your posts. It sounds as if you are trying to clean out ashes every day. If so, I highly doubt you need to nor should you. It is best to leave some ashes in the stove. We clean ashes about every 4th day or so and it sounds like the firebox sizes are pretty close to the same size.

 

[Jerry_NJ]

Backwoods... I never "Clean it out" during burning season. I just remove ash often.

My burning strategy is to burn to enjoy, have higher heat in the living room when reading and watching t.v. Otherwise I heat with my Geo Heat Pump, but not right now due to it being down. This burn strategy means the Insert is cold an any day that the temperature is over 35 degrees, and that's when I usually remove excess ash. At those time most coals are gone-to-ash, or are cold lumps.

With the HP failure I will not have the luxury of removing ash when the coals are all gone/cold.

The good news is the third WaterFurnace dealer I called said he'd be here between noon and 2 pm. I called to others first that are located closer, neither could respond before Monday unless I approved an overtime charge, for weekend I suppose. The third dealer, 40 miles from here, carries the WaterFurnace "GEOPRO" certification, meaning one of their dealers that has delivered unspecified benchmarks. Well, that's the dealer who said, yes, I'll be there today, at lunch time. This sample says GEOPRO does mean something, assume good. We'll know after the work is done and the bill is rendered.

 

[savageactor7]

Well Jerry I hope you can get your HP fixed today. Maybe in the meantime you could rake the big coals closer to the door and with a split or two at a time burn down those coals to ash with a hotter fire. Here's hoping you find a solution quickly.

 

[Jerry_NJ]

Thanks, I did some shuffling of the ash/coals and removed a some ash, trying to save as many of the coals as possible. I think I have enough room for another 24 hour run.

The HP guys, two, were here and diagnosed the problem to be just what I suspected. Problem is my old unit is difficult to fix (parts) so they recommend an "upgrade" and will get back to me today with a price and will include both must have and options, including cutting into the sheet metal of the air return and installing a door so that it is easy to vacuum/clean the exchanger. Bet that's a couple of hundred...we'll see but the idea sounds like a good extra to me. It has always troubled me that I couldn't get to the input side of the exchange other than through the 1.5" wide filter door, I even planned to make a special vacuum attachment out of 1" plastic pipe. Bought the pipe, but never got around to making an attachment for the vacuum.

It looks like I'll not see the HP back on-line before Monday, we'll see. Bet I go well over $1K for the repair/upgrade. The good news is I've been saving with the most economical heat during the $4 a gallon heating oil bubble of the recent past. I must have saved at least $3K on heating last year as compared to oil. I didn't use wood much last year, but with the new Quadrafire I was geared up to heat on the coldest weather with wood, at least during the home/awake hours. As it turns out, the GeoHP is efficient enough that it is very competitive with wood, cost-wise, with wood at $200+ per cord and electicity at 16 cents per KWH.

Part of my wood strategy was to have a quality wood heat source to deal with power outages, or other losses of central heat. I did the Quadrafire just-in-time, unusual for me, I think of myself more in the day-late-dollar-short crowd.

 

[Jerry_NJ]

Seems I'm getting a bum-around on the Waterfurnace HP. Yes it is time to name names, which I always do for good and bad products/services.

I still don't have the WF HP fixed, and while waiting a sent a complaint to the WF Territory Manage. I complained first about the apparent unavailability for needed part. Not only to I have to buy an upgrade kit which includes a number of parts, including electronic control and wall thermometer, but I was told by one of there "GEOPRO" dealers that he couldn't order last Friday because of inventory work...I assumed he meant Factory Inventory work. The Territory Manager sent me the phone number of the factory customer service rep. who confirmed to me WF doesn't support their past products other than through high cost retrofit upgrades, further she said they would have shipped on last Friday and can ship overnight (watch the extra cost on that one), she said there was no "inventory" stop at their end. Could it be the dealer wouldn't order because of his doing inventory? I don't think so. Bottom line, no help, guess I'll be writing complaint at the executive level, I'll look that up on the web to see what I can find. The WF Customer rep didn't offer any help, just the "trouble left here ok" sort of crap.

I haven't heard from the dealer, would it seem reasonable that I, someone with the central heating system down, would get a telephone call telling me what has happened, what they're doing? Seem reasonable to me, and not it looks like I about to head-to-head with the deal, not good, he holds all the cards, but I can't just sit by at be treated this way. I have as a back-up plan called the dealer who installed my WF HP 15 years ago, he changed from WF to another brand. He's going to give me a bid on installing a new system, my ground loops can be reused. If he can show significant efficiency improvements and better customer control over the system, I think WF back 15 years ago put too much control in a micro-process based control system. This does a "thoughtful" job of controlling HP compress and fan speeds to maximize efficiency, but this gets in the way of me managing a central warm up from 60 degrees to 66 degrees. On a cold day if I make a demand to more than 2 degrees at a time, the controller will find the temperature not rising fast enough and will call in resistive supplemental heat, there goes the efficiency.

I welcome any advice on brands of geothermal HPs.

 

[begreen]

I'd start another thread in the Green Room for questions about geothermal units. There are some old threads on the subject there that you might also find helpful.

 

[Jerry_NJ]

BeGreen,

I started there and haven't found exactly what I want. Seems the words "geothermal heat pump" come up in a lot of threads.... including this one. One of the reasons I pumped my question into this thread.

I recall reading/participating in another thread recently where a brand was named, and I wanted to look that brand up on the web. Yes, I don't remember the name and when I search Geothermal Heat Pump with google it doesn't come back with anything like a list of manufacturers. Maybe that's what I need to search on. One big thing I have going for continuing with a Geothermal is my ground loop will work with any brand.

 

[begreen]

Have you visited the EnergyStar website? They list the manufacturers (on right side of website).
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=geo_heat.pr_geo_heat_pumps