Ukraine and Russia

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webbie

webbie

Seasoned Moderator
Nov 17, 2005
12,165
Western Mass.
Not looking to get into a political back and forth here, but just an observation that this could be a much bigger deal than anything we've dealt with in many decades. We are talking about two nuclear armed countries and forces (Putin and the Russian oligarchs) who will likely stop at nothing to assure that Ukraine remains part of their sphere.

I suspect BG here know more (visited there?), but this should be on the radar of those who care about foreign affairs and long-term tendencies toward democracy and freedom.

As I commented to my Dad in FL last week, the biggest PR job ever done was "the cold war is over"...not to say we should start up that craziness again, but it would be foolish not to see that Russia seems to most always be on the "other" side of most issues (Iran/Syria, etc. etc.) than we do.

I hope it settles down. Even if the result is less than perfect.
 
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That has been in the back of my mind.....where is this conflict going? I assumed with the Olympics and the PR that goes with it, Russia will be kind of quiet and low keyed. But once the world has moved on after the Olympics???
 
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GENECOP said:
I think the exhaust from my wood furnace will shield me from the Fallout....no?
Click to expand...

I'm old enough that I will prob go of natural causes before the fallout has enough time to settle in.......

I'm usually an optimist....and I guess neither of them want MAD (mutual assured destruction), so maybe that's a long shot.

Still, this could go either way. The west is not about to mess with Putin too much if he decides that Ukraine is his. And, tell you the truth, he has as much claim to it as we do to large parts of our own country and colonies.....so it's a tough situation. I like to think the general tendency is toward freedom, but sometimes it's two steps forward and then one back.
 
We should take a lesson from those in the Ukraine that are sick and tired of a government that is heavy handed and intrude on our lives just for the fact that they can get away with it. I'm from German ancestry. 1 side of my family came here in the mid 1800"s and the other side came during WW2. All of use are proud to be here and have lost many loved ones in wars since my family have settled in this country.
I'm surprised that so many folks from the east coast on this forum the birth place of this country are so complaisant about the freedoms that are slowly slipping away from us. I will say no more and delete if you please but just remember this, There by the grace of God go I.
 
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It's a stretch to compare Russia - where men live on average 60 years - to that here (76+ years), or to compare their standard of living to ours.

But back to Ukraine - I just saw an interview with McCain about it - and he pretty much had it right. Putin is a KGB strong man who wants to reassert his power - and, frankly, he does have a lot of power to throw around. But, as Mac said, he's likely to do it all covertly (from the inside) rather than start a real conflict.

We in the USA will always disagree internally about what "real freedom" is....but, as we see with the pot, gay and many other similar issues (which are issues of "rights" and freedoms), we tend to come around eventually.

If you or anyone else is unhappy, you can definitely protest, vote, organize, blog, sing, write, etc....which is probably less true in Russia. Keep in mind that even Russians are not rebelling and they have it MUCH worse than we do by any measurement! It takes an awful lot to make "comfortable" people take to the streets.
 
Russia needs the Ukraine it is their "breadbasket". Putin knows he can do what he needs to do, without any backlash from our President. Putin has no respect for Obama. It is going to get ugly. Putin is old school KGB - soft smile - iron jaw.
My prayers are with the Ukraine people. I hope they can preserve and peacefully be distruptive to Putin. It worked in Poland and Czechoslovakia it is the only way to beat the the KGB.
 
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Heck, we can't do anything (IMHO) no matter what. We've already swung the Big Stick many times against lesser enemies without result. We're sure not going to cause a WW.

We can do about as much about that as Putin can do about us making sure we still own Alaska or that Canada is still our close ally. It's simply not our sphere of influence and idle threats don't work. I am 100% sure that most Americans don't want to spend trillions more and send their sons and daughters over there.

So my entire premise is that this is going to be something which ends up being settled by the Ukrainians as well as perhaps some input from neighbors and maybe a bit of NATO posturing. In the end, though, I think most modern conflicts have proven that if the true Home Team (Ukranians) don't want the outsiders ruling the place, then that result could happen...Putin or no Putin.

It's also hard since we've long ago told Russia that they are now a "free market democracy" and "friend" (Bush saw into Putins soul that he was a good man and Obama pretty much the same - although both of those positions are probably because of Russian oil and business)....so we can't just turn the tables and claim they are what they are!

I hope we stay far out of this mess. In fact, I hope it doesn't become a mess. Either way, I think it's - unlike many other contrived news stories - something that should concern Americans.

I admit ignorance on the Ukraine. I don't know if they have any treaties or allies in place, etc.
 
This is not a good situation. It has neighbor Georgia quite concerned as well. Ukraine has been politically divided for a long time. The Western part (west of the Dneiper) is decidedly European in culture and attitude. They prefer to speak Ukrainian. But the far eastern portion and the Crimea are pro-Russian and speak mostly Russian. The Crimea is also where Russia has it's only warm water naval port. It is not going to give up a presence on the Black Sea. Then you have Putin who is under political attack in his own country. He is running on a strong Russia like in the "good old days" platform. A lot of people still bemoan the loss of Russian satellite states as a falling from world power. So losing ground in the Ukraine is losing face for Putin as well as for Russian Nationalists. It's claimed that Russian troops took over the Crimean parliament and their airports in the past two days.

It doesn't bode well for the Ukrainians because they lack a trustworthy, strong leadership. I have a friend living in Kiev right now. It is tense there still. Their currency is plummeting and right now they are trying to stem a run on the banks. Not good times there at all.

In the meantime, leave it to Steven Segal to lighten things up a bit.

putin.jpg
 
Interesting to say the least. We used the excuse of not liking their attitude towards homosexuals as to why we didn't send ANY govt reps to attend the Olympics, first time in a long time we sat one out.
We used the excuse of possible bombings or other attacks as a reason to park a couple naval vessels off their coast. Really?

Our government saw this coming, just hope we don't get too involved but I think Putin is going to flex his muscle and I'm not sure how well react.

Agreed though, keep an eye on this situation, could get ugly.

Russian ship surprise docking in Cuba.....

http://ww2.nationalpost.com/m/wp/bl...munist-nation-as-armed-vessel-docks-in-havana
 
webbie said:
Heck, we can't do anything (IMHO) no matter what. We've already swung the Big Stick many times against lesser enemies without result. We're sure not going to cause a WW.

We can do about as much about that as Putin can do about us making sure we still own Alaska or that Canada is still our close ally. It's simply not our sphere of influence and idle threats don't work. I am 100% sure that most Americans don't want to spend trillions more and send their sons and daughters over there.

So my entire premise is that this is going to be something which ends up being settled by the Ukrainians as well as perhaps some input from neighbors and maybe a bit of NATO posturing. In the end, though, I think most modern conflicts have proven that if the true Home Team (Ukranians) don't want the outsiders ruling the place, then that result could happen...Putin or no Putin.

It's also hard since we've long ago told Russia that they are now a "free market democracy" and "friend" (Bush saw into Putins soul that he was a good man and Obama pretty much the same - although both of those positions are probably because of Russian oil and business)....so we can't just turn the tables and claim they are what they are!

I hope we stay far out of this mess. In fact, I hope it doesn't become a mess. Either way, I think it's - unlike many other contrived news stories - something that should concern Americans.

I admit ignorance on the Ukraine. I don't know if they have any treaties or allies in place, etc.
Click to expand...
With Putin, I wouldn't be sure about the US keeping Alaska.
 
Turns out my family probably hails from Ukraine - at least the Paternal side.
I say probably because both the names and the borders tend to change and much of history was wiped out in the pogroms, the revolutions and WWII.
One family was apparently from deep inside Ukraine, and the other closer to the border in an area call Galacia - which has been disputed over the years, but borders places like Hungary, Poland and Austria/Germany.

My bro, luckily for me, spends time digging up Ellis Island and Army records!
 
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Warm_in_NH said:
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBREA1Q21120140227?irpc=932

Reuters is carrying same story. I'd say credible.
Click to expand...

BUT, this is a joke in terms of meaning anything. It's not saber rattling either. It would be another thing if it was 1880. Nothing on this earth could be on that ship which could not be on land in Cuba or on one of the many nuclear subs the Russians have around the world, etc.....

I'm no military expert, but this type of thing seems like a story line to drum up fear. After all, we have vast "assets" very close to China, Russia and just about everywhere else on the planet....
 
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webbie said:
BUT, this is a joke in terms of meaning anything. It's not saber rattling either. It would be another thing if it was 1880. Nothing on this earth could be on that ship which could not be on land in Cuba or on one of the many nuclear subs the Russians have around the world, etc.....

I'm no military expert, but this type of thing seems like a story line to drum up fear. After all, we have vast "assets" very close to China, Russia and just about everywhere else on the planet....
Click to expand...

True. Just odd. But probably media hype or "saber rattling" as you said.

Are our ships that we put over there for the Olympics still in the area? I, not surprisingly, couldn't find any info on it.

Also, if you believe wickedpedia, Ukraine no longer has nukes.
 
After watching the news I became more aware things were escalating... doesn't look good does it..?
 
webbie said:
BUT, this is a joke in terms of meaning anything. It's not saber rattling either. It would be another thing if it was 1880. Nothing on this earth could be on that ship which could not be on land in Cuba or on one of the many nuclear subs the Russians have around the world, etc.....

I'm no military expert, but this type of thing seems like a story line to drum up fear. After all, we have vast "assets" very close to China, Russia and just about everywhere else on the planet....
Click to expand...


I agree completely. God love the internet......Can i come out of my hole now?
 
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I thought Egypt was going to be a big issue for us, it wasn't.
I though N. Korea was going to be a big issue with their last set of launches (not this go around) was going to be an issue, not so much.
There's Iran, but we just forgot about them...
Hopefully this goes by the way side as well

We were the "world bully" for years. Now we vow not to be. There's always going to be a bully on every play ground, we're just witnessing the others testing the waters....

I just hope that's all any of this ends up being.
 
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