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UL listings not being honored by my insurance

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by diyrye, Sep 28, 2012.

  1. diyrye

    diyrye New Member

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    Hello again guys, I'm trying to buy a stove to install and my insurance insists that UL has to be the one that does the UL listing. Many stove companies, including the expensive ones, use intertek to test to UL standards. My insurance is trying to tell me that it can't be another company testing to UL's standards and that UL (underwriters laboratories Inc) itself must do the testing to maintain a UL listing/approval.

    They are saying US Stove company, Vogelzang, Drolet, Jotul, (and I'm waiting on harmans response) are all not UL certified since they use intertek or a similar lab.

    I have contacted UL directly and am waiting to hear back from them but UL certified is UL certified right no matter who actually performed the test. So far I haven't found a single manufacturer that actually uses UL labs. Is it just me or is my insurance company on crack? Thanks for any input.

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  2. Jaugust124

    Jaugust124 Feeling the Heat

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    Get a new insurance company.
    ScotO, rideau and jjs777_fzr like this.
  3. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    That is because UL does not test solid fuel heating appliances. They don't have the gear or labs for it. That is why it is farmed out. What idiot insurance company is this? I suspect that this is just an agent talking. Get a phone number for the underwriting department. That will get their attention.

    Tell them to point you to a stove company that UL tests and you will buy their stove. >> Or ask them why UL does periodic inspections and re-certifies labs like Intertek.
  4. diyrye

    diyrye New Member

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    My insurance is grange out of ohio, super cheap but super anal apparently. I had stoves narrowed down to the vogelzang performer or us stove model 3000 after months of looking around and they shot me down with this UL stuff. Looks like I'll have to give them a lesson on UL certification! Maybe direct them to UL themselves. I even forwarded an email from US stoves to the agent. I had talked to the actual insurance company and they told me I needed to talk to my agent about it. You think an insurance company would know what they were along about.
  5. tfdchief

    tfdchief Minister of Fire

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    That a boy BB. I really wanted to respond to this thread, but you beat me to it.......and right on the money. So I will just say if it were me, I would challenge the insurance company just for kicks and then go get another one. How ridiculous. Codes often require "stuff" to be approved for a specific use. But they don't say by whom. It can even be the inspector of an AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) such as a municipality.
    ScotO likes this.
  6. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    Most of the houses they insure have pre-fab fireplaces in them that never saw a UL lab. Heck most of the appliances in your house weren't tested by UL but "conform" to UL requirements. UL is first, foremost and lately lastly a standards writing company. I think your insurance company has them confused with Consumer Reports that actually buys and tests stuff.
  7. Jaugust124

    Jaugust124 Feeling the Heat

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    So... you are going to take the time to educate them? They should be paying you. The best way to educate them is to go to their competition and tell them exactly why you are leaving.
    tfdchief and Oldhippie like this.
  8. diyrye

    diyrye New Member

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    What does the plate look like/say on the back of stoves? Does it say UL on it? Us stove told me they can't put the UL logo on it because they don't want to pay UL for the UL brand? sounds like she doesn't know what she is talking about either. She confirmed they use intertek.

    Many stove websites have the branded "UL" logo at the bottom. If that's on my stove I think my insurance company can bite me. If they have a problem with it still, I'll switch to yet another company. I had Allstate ( who didn't care If I was burning trash in a barrel to keep warm) but their rates skyrocketed on me so I switched to this company. If they keep it up I'll be switching again. By the way, my wife picked this company with my single only requirement given to her is that they allow woodstoves.. Apparently they do, just ones tested by non-existant labs
  9. diyrye

    diyrye New Member

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    Yeah I have two open fireplaces that they were ok with. Even with burn holes all over the carpet (there when i bought the house) which im replacing with tile.. But I guess a sealed jotul or harman stove is a fire hazard....
  10. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    UL writes the standards , they dont test anything. i agree with the above, shop for a new insurance company. the one you have has their head up their azz.

    UL standards apply to pillows and mattresses but UL doesnt test them, i bet they dont expect you to sleep on the floor do they?

    intertek and the others are licensed to test to UL standards. UL 1482 is the standard for woodstoves. as long as the stove is certified to UL 1482 standards there should be no problem with who did the test provided they are certified by UL to underwrite the results.

    your insurance agent is an idiot, feel free to tell him/her i said so. would make my day if ya did;)
    tfdchief and ScotO like this.
  11. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    wait a minute, the stove doesnt have the UL cert agency listed on the tag?? trust me , they cant afford NOT TO. its a cost of doing business. if the stove doesnt have a logo from a listed testing agency, DO NOT BUY IT! buy only a stove that has such a logo posted on the tag. it only counts on the tag itself, if it aint on the data tag it aint certified even if it passed the test. trust me on this, i do this for a living. you CANNOT claim a UL certification for a stove without putting the logo of the underwriting agency on the tag on the stove!
  12. fossil

    fossil Accidental Moderator Staff Member

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    See this somewhere on the tag on the back of the appliance or run away and report the seller.

    UL.jpg
  13. diyrye

    diyrye New Member

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    Does anyone have a Vogelzang performer and if so does it have UL on the info plate?
  14. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    On the front page of the manual it states the stove meets UL 1482-2010 test standards
  15. WidowMaker

    WidowMaker Member

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    Fossil, my Lopi, Endeavor does not have the UL logo but it does have a statement that it conforms to the UL standard...I assume that Warnock Hersey is the certifing agency...That picture was suppose to be inserted here....Sorry

    8-3-12 001 (Medium).jpg
    ScotO likes this.
  16. Swedishchef

    Swedishchef Minister of Fire

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    That is foolishness, I would get a new insurance company. If they can be strict/anal on something like this, imagine what they will be like if you ever need to process a claim with them! Let this be a warning and I hope you heed the warning!

    ANdrew
  17. fossil

    fossil Accidental Moderator Staff Member

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    I stand corrected. Yes, Warnock Hersey is the certifying lab in this case.
  18. Treacherous

    Treacherous Minister of Fire

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    I haven't had a rate increase in years but that is true about Allstate. They had no concern when I replaced my old Centennial smoke dragon with my Lopi.

  19. diyrye

    diyrye New Member

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    Allstates increase wasn't due to stove changes, after they sent their field guy out to check out the house I bought, their rates were adjusted. By alot.

    Yeah I read way to many manuals saying that the stove was tested to UL 1482-1998 just that my insurance is under the impression that it can't just say that but that it must have the UL brand logo tested by UL not just conforming to their standards.

    I will install a UL conforming stove, if they don't like it, I'll take my business elsewhere.
  20. sebring

    sebring Member

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    Just put in a stove. Unless you burn your house down, nobody needs to know.
  21. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    this is silly, warnock hersey (actually intertek testing service (which is fully accredited by UL) does the testing (along with omni which has the same accreditation) for literally 9 of 10 stoves sold in north america today.

    as i said before "UL" doesnt "test" anything, they simply write the standards and accredit the agencies which do the testing. were it not for WH and OMNI nobody i the us would have a UL listed stove.
    ScotO likes this.
  22. charly

    charly Guest

    I too agree, they may be cheap, but don't ever ask for anything back. You'll find out why they were cheap. I had State Farm for over 20 years, never a claim. 2 years ago I had 2000 dollars worth of tools stolen, State Police report on what was stolen and value. Insurance company claimed no receipt's , then no money! I dropped them , had my home and all my cars through them. Told them they where a bunch of crooks! They love your money ,but think of anything they can do to get out of paying. So beware of cheap, you paying for nothing in return most likely.
  23. remkel

    remkel Minister of Fire

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    My insurance company did not even bother coming out when I installed the new stove. They did come out when I did my original installation.

    As for Grange, time for you to get a new insurance company, but p,ease, please go forward with messing with them by asking the questions. If you could tape the conversation (with their approval, of course) and post it as a .wav file that would be awesome!
    ScotO likes this.
  24. Huntindog1

    Huntindog1 Minister of Fire

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    Vogelzang's Tag says Tested to UL 1482

    IMG_0713.JPG
  25. Buckeye 2012

    Buckeye 2012 New Member

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    I work for a large insurance company. If you add the stove or insert after your policy is in place I would not say anything. Most insurance companies now require an inspection and will surcharge you on average $250. Some do not care, but that list of companies is twindling. If you do not mention you have a stove or insert at the inception of the policy (in other words when you buy the policy and fill out the application), then you could be in trouble. An insurance company would deny a claim caused by the stove (fire or electrical if there were a fan problem) on the basis of material misrepresentation. The denial will stand up in court. In insurance companies there is not a great desire to write home owners nowadays due to profitability issues so they are always looking for every charge to add on or reasons to get off a policy.
    On the other hand I would get the stove you wanted if you are buying new. This is the first I have heard of one wanting a testing lab to sign off. I am familiar with Grange and know that they are not on the best footing financially right now and scrambling to get their book in order.

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