underground piping.

[smangold]

Heaterman Would you be able to give me a brand name of the foam product you use ,so I can search for a local contractor. Thank you

 

[heaterman]

Sorry but I don't know a brand name. I do know that the product is a two part system IIRC and is heated before application. If you want to call my guys directly and ask them about the product, here's their number. 231-946-7450. I'm sure they'd be happy to explain it to you. They say they have been using this process on all sorts of underground piping for a long time with no failures.

 

[Tony H]

Here is a web page with some good info on the different spray insulations and links to more specific info on each that may help in finding the right product and getting it installed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_insulation_materials

 

[trehugr]

Ive been very interested in this thread. I found this stuff and wondered if anyone has ever used it ? Would it work for what were talking about here?

http://www.foampower.com/store/two_component/index.html

 

[smangold]

Thanks heaterman, Ill give them a call. I called my insulation man and he didn't think his foam would be good underground. Trehuger, the Handifoam is available at my building supply house. I think I'll call and see if I can talk to a rep.

 

[heaterman]

Handifoam appears to be much the same, urethane based, two part product although I don't see anything regarding being waterproof. In addition, I see that it's coverage is listed in board feet. Not a very useful measurement when trying to figure out how much will be needed to do a trench. It's not cheap from the looks of it.

The insulating company I use shows up at the jobsite with a F-550 complete with diesel generator to run the 3 phase heaters and 55 gallon drums of product.

 

[Bob Rohr]

My favorite product/ method is the InsulSeal product. It is PVC pipe with a foam sprayed around it and a water proof liner. The 10 foot sections glue together, and you tape the seams. It is available in various r-values.

This provides 3 nice features. First a consistent r- value, unlike the pipe in coiled drain tube. It provides a 100% water proofed condiut, unlike the easily punctured black slinky drain products.

It also allows you to install, and remove if needed, the tube inside.

I install a PAP supply and return, and a few extra pex tubes for water and or pulling low voltage lines for control circuits. The 4" InsulSeal easily handles 6 tubes or more.

Mine has 4- 1" pex lines and 4- 1/2" pex lines inside.

Also run some tube inside to add solar to the roof of your outdoor boiler building. One 4X8 panel will go a long ways to supplying DHW for a typical family.

hr

 

[Gooserider]

I like the idea of having a replaceable core, and the flexibility you mention, but there are a couple things I'd wonder about...

1. How much heat leakage do you get between the pipes inside - not just the supply and returns, but also any other lines - say if you were trying to run a cold water feed for a sink / bathroom in the heater shed, or how much would your low voltage control lines get cooked? (I know my CAT5e cable is only rated for about 150*)

2. What is "PAP"?

3. I can see how you could get foam around the length of the pipe, but it would seem like there would have to be a gap at the joints - do you fill that gap with some sort of spray foam as well as tape sealing it, or what?

4. How do you deal with less than full lengths of pipe?

5. Are there elbows and other such fittings available for the ends of the run? I know I would not want to make below grade penetrations through my basement wall, and would far rather come up high enough to go through the sill plate area - wood is easier to drill than concrete.

Gooserider

My favorite product/ method is the InsulSeal product. It is PVC pipe with a foam sprayed around it and a water proof liner. The 10 foot sections glue together, and you tape the seams. It is available in various r-values.

This provides 3 nice features. First a consistent r- value, unlike the pipe in coiled drain tube. It provides a 100% water proofed condiut, unlike the easily punctured black slinky drain products.

It also allows you to install, and remove if needed, the tube inside.

I install a PAP supply and return, and a few extra pex tubes for water and or pulling low voltage lines for control circuits. The 4" InsulSeal easily handles 6 tubes or more.

Mine has 4- 1" pex lines and 4- 1/2" pex lines inside.

Also run some tube inside to add solar to the roof of your outdoor boiler building. One 4X8 panel will go a long ways to supplying DHW for a typical family.

hr

 

[Bob Rohr]

I like the idea of having a replaceable core, and the flexibility you mention, but there are a couple things I'd wonder about...

1. How much heat leakage do you get between the pipes inside - not just the supply and returns, but also any other lines - say if you were trying to run a cold water feed for a sink / bathroom in the heater shed, or how much would your low voltage control lines get cooked? (I know my CAT5e cable is only rated for about 150*)

2. What is "PAP"?

3. I can see how you could get foam around the length of the pipe, but it would seem like there would have to be a gap at the joints - do you fill that gap with some sort of spray foam as well as tape sealing it, or what?

4. How do you deal with less than full lengths of pipe?

5. Are there elbows and other such fittings available for the ends of the run? I know I would not want to make below grade penetrations through my basement wall, and would far rather come up high enough to go through the sill plate area - wood is easier to drill than concrete.

Gooserider

Plenty of wire available with a 90 C (194F) temperature rating both low voltage t-stat wire and basic THHN stranded wire.

The joints glue together, and the outer jacket is long enough to cover the seam. I suppose you could silicone the foam to foam connection.

Yes the additional lines will get warm from the heated lines, somewhat. It would flush out in a matter of seconds.

PAP is Pex al Pex. it is a pex tubing with aluminum inside. It handles much like soft copper tube. when you uncoil it stays straight. Much easier to push inside a tube. I tape the whole gob together to shove it in. Connect a rope to pull if you need to go more than 100 feet of have fittings along the way.

They have long sweep ells and 45 ells if you need. Also insulated and wrapped.

You can cut it anywhers. One end of every stick has a belled end for coupling together, as do the fittings.

More details at www.insulseal.com

hr

My favorite product/ method is the InsulSeal product. It is PVC pipe with a foam sprayed around it and a water proof liner. The 10 foot sections glue together, and you tape the seams. It is available in various r-values.

This provides 3 nice features. First a consistent r- value, unlike the pipe in coiled drain tube. It provides a 100% water proofed condiut, unlike the easily punctured black slinky drain products.

It also allows you to install, and remove if needed, the tube inside.

I install a PAP supply and return, and a few extra pex tubes for water and or pulling low voltage lines for control circuits. The 4" InsulSeal easily handles 6 tubes or more.

Mine has 4- 1" pex lines and 4- 1/2" pex lines inside.

Also run some tube inside to add solar to the roof of your outdoor boiler building. One 4X8 panel will go a long ways to supplying DHW for a typical family.

hr

 

[heaterman]

I like Insulseal also and have used it quite a few times. I 've seen people install it themselves and have problems though. The number one thing is to be careful about the bottom of your trench and make sure the Insulseal is well supported. Backfilling should be done with a normal amount of care also. I recently ran into a homeowner who had installed it himself and run into problems with water entering the pipe. Obviously he had a joint come apart somewhere underground and it allowed ground water to follow the tube into his basement. His yard was solid clay and upon questioning him it became clear that there were probably a lot of void under the tube when he backfilled. The trench was only 30" or so deep and he ran his backhoe over it to compact the soild back down after backfilling. I'm guessing that he had a pocket under the Insulseal that allowed it to flex and break when he did that. Definitely not the fault of the product. As with all thing, you have to use your head and consider the consequences of an action before doing it.

 

[Tony H]

I agree with heaterman the product is good but many installations fail due to poor installation. If you hire and experienced contractor you will probably not have a problem however many non experienced persons will have trouble with breaks at the joints some to to poor prep, traffic over top , and frost heaving. If you take the time to bury it deep and level support it well and fill around the pipe with sand and then pulverized dirt (not clay/chunks) you should be ok provided you do not drive a backhoe over it right away. Water in the backfill and allow it to settle naturally for a few weeks adding more fill as it settles.