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Used Defiant vs New Englander 30?

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by rhetoric, Sep 21, 2007.

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  1. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Jacuzzi did make stoves for awhile.......they had a oval door - but I do think VC makes a line for discount stores (home centers) with the same name (Century)...

    As Elk admits, the price at a stove dealer for the replacement Encore cat and some ceramics can run up to $500 PLUS installation and perhaps other parts. Maybe he knows where to get them cheap, but 95% of current owners do not. Hence, if someone purchased a used Encore for 900 or so, and it needed a cat....well, you can add for yourself.....

    As far as the proverbial Desert Island, I've been using that to help my customers for decades. Since one stove is often not "better" than another, it helps to point out the differences......such as stove #1 might need standard firebrick, while #2 may use cast iron liners.....

    Still another point which we have heard a lot - is that some manufacturers are only stocking parts for 10 years after a stove model stops being sold. So whichever stove a person decides on (especially Pellet Stoves and Cast Iron stoves), they should make certain of the future parts situation.

    I have folks emailing me almost every day for Upland owners manuals - the last Upland stove we made was about 20 years ago......there is almost no such thing as a "rebuild" or "refurb" with these simple stove - maybe a latch replacement and gasket. The point is that a Mercedes (VC) will be in the shop and will cost more over the decades than a Ford with roll-up windows. (I have had both).....

    On a similar topic, I usually caution against folks buying used pellet stoves......for many of the same reasons. Unless it is a relatively lightly used current model, it can be a parts and "refurb" nightmare.

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  2. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    First off, not kissing ass, but I respect both parties involved in these exchanges of words.
    Playing devils advocate, of these stoves for sale on ebay, how many are used? And a larger number of VC's might indicate a surplus that is tough to move, or if used a more majority of unhappy customers. I am not saying this is what it is, just playing devils advocate.
    Plan fact is, most stove companies that have more than a few years under their belt, must make a decent stove, or else they would have went way side like many other companies that did just that. What I read in Webs statement is his opinion and his personal choice to a question that was asked. I don't myself read that as a bashing on VC. I honestly haven't noticed Web continually bringing up, nor talking about VC, unless a fellow member or new member asks for opinions.
    Its ok that you have pride in VC and their American made, American workers & American pride. Thats ok, and that is your free opinion and expression.
    I just don't understand why it almost seems like you take it so personally and get so heated about discussions about VC.
    I bought a Summit, it does not mean I am unpatriotic, or that I don't want to support America & American workers. But I felt it was the insert that best fit my needs & wants. Would I drive a foreign car manufacturers car? Sure would if it fit my needs & wants. Hell, my Ford Ranger has a Mazda motor in it from factory, its the same truck even body panel wise as a Mazda. But I like Fords, so I buy Fords. I just don't myself get how some get so worked up over such non life changing questions or issues. Its a forum, for discussion, help, questions, answers and some good fun also. Everyone take a breath, relax and enjoy life and the friendships built in the forums. Wow am I saying all this sheet? Must be the Percocet talking ;)
  3. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    How about sending me two of those Percs over the new special PM transporter I have installed.......? It might make my finger stop throbbing!

    I guess simple question = simple answer. When it comes to used stoves, look for one that the proverbial old lady only drove to the corner store. There are a lot like that, since many people buy stoves and then find it too much work, or don't like the smell of smoke.

    And, as Hog suggests, personal opinion comes into play. I'd buy a new $1,000 stove (with less features) before I would buy a used 900 one which needed some work.

    The exception is when the stove is in amazing condition, and/or you have a friend in the business, and you are handy, etc......
  4. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    LOL on the Perc's. I can't seem to get the special PM thingy working right. OH, well I know I am getting a short break from pain. I'll feel better for the both of us ;)
    Wait till you dig those sore spots open again tomorrow when your finishing up :) Pictures!!!!!!!!!
  5. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    I like VC, I was impressed by their plant, I will be burning one soon as Elk gets it up to me and I get it installed / inspected. (Hearth extension has Durock cemented and screwed down as of earlier this afternoon- tile will have to wait until I get the cheapo saw from HF, but as of now I think I'd be legal to burn with it since the tile really doesn't do anything for fire protection other than cosmetics...)

    I am also constrained by my setup, VC is one of the few stove makers who even make a stove that I could consider due to my rear exit requirement and height limitations. For instance I can't even consider an Englander at present, since all of their current production is top exit only. I understand this may change in the future, but we will cross that bridge when we come to it.

    However If I had the OP's choice, I would be strongly inclined to go with the Englander - The cost difference stated is not big enough to justify skipping the warranty and comparatively known quality of a new stove vs. the unknowns of a used model. Based on the OP's info that he thought it was a Defiant, then discovered it was an Encore, makes me think the used stove is a late 80's model 0028 "Defiant-Encore" as that model was called. The later models dropped the "Defiant" part to become just Encores, as VC also came out with the larger Cat Defiants.

    Parts are still available for the 0028, but the over fired, and improperly operated unit I was getting originally had the sort of damage that Web described, and replacement costs would have been on that order of magnitude, even from Discount Stove Parts. I also found the 0028 was NOT an easy stove to take apart - If I was doing it at pro labor rates, I'd be inclined to say that rebuilding one would probably not be cost effective.

    The unit also had some failures that might or might not have been caused by the over firing, and probably contributed to the improper operating. The warped damper and frame may also have been a cause of some of the problems as well as a result. Thus I can't say what would occur in the scenario Web described of several years of normal use, but certainly that sort of damage will come from abuse....

    Gooserider
  6. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    Goose they the Encore was labeled defiant encore up to 2001 when VC re incarnated the Defiant again My 1999 is a defiant Encore as will your be the 2550 model is the current model run and many were labeled defiant encore. It is very easy for that person to have confused the issue as it is labeled both ways

    I can report I get 8 hours of productive heat between reloads and running 24/7 in my open floor space home I have achieved temperature rise of a few degrees even when it got below zero

    All other stoves I owned never could achieve this Below 10 degrees I would loose ground. Even so, it reduced my dependency on foreign oil consumption

    No space heater can distribute heat equal to a central heating system. Area heaters are just that area. One has to set realistic goals My goal is to shut down the zone the stove occupies.

    Burning 24/7 does make a difference in the more remote rooms Like 62 /64 in the upstairs bedrooms Bit it takes 24/7 of controlled heat out put to accomplish this.

    Occasional usage on cold night will not get it done A stove runs best at 60 to 70% of its operating range and efficiency. Very hard with cord wood to realtically archive any more.

    The question here assuming the used Encore was in good condition VS the englander is the features. Smokeless top loading is a real convience. Hard to explain or compare to ones that never experienced it
    . I also make use of the bread warmer shelves and mitten drying racks. Nice to dry out those wet gloves or raise homemade bread But Its the dust free ash disposal system that is the wife pleased. Swing out the ash doot place the handele cover on and pick it up and bring it out side no shovels needed no ash tlail about as mess free as it gets Believe me a wife pleaser
  7. rich81

    rich81 Member

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    does the englander come with a self igniter?
  8. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    a woodstove with self ignite??? no. our pellet and corn stoves self ignite , but i have yet to see a log burner that would do so. that would be pretty danged impressive.
  9. TMonter

    TMonter Minister of Fire

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    I think the Reality is that for the price, warranty and the lower maintenance, the Englander would be the better choice. I'm on my third season on my englander 13 NCL and so far it's been trouble free.

    One of my neighbors burns a 30 NCl and he's on his fifth season I believe. He gets regular burn times of 10+ hours on a full load of seasoned Red Fir.
  10. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    whats the rated heat output of the VC??? rated square footage?? how about the efficiency rating?? GPH??? not to mention ...warranty, online help in here if needed? as well as the support staff at englander. i wont go on about the "american made" thing as VC is too (for the most part) but the 30-nc series woodstove at 3.5 cf firebox is the cleanest burning unit on the market for its firebox size regardless of price,easily heating with units that are more than twice the cost. bang for the buck i am waiting for sombody to challenge it.
  11. fbelec

    fbelec Minister of Fire

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    this tread was the same as someone asking who makes a better truck ford dodge or chevy
    just one big argument and opinion
  12. n6crv

    n6crv Feeling the Heat

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    Fbelec, that is a easy answer. Only Ford makes trucks. All the others are just want-A-be's.
    Don
  13. Todd

    Todd Minister of Fire

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    Those numbers don't mean nothin in real world burning as far as I'm concerned. But like you say warranty, support, and price wise, I'd probably pick the Englander. But then if you go by looks the Encore looks better to me. Englander needs to come up with a less expensive cast iron top loader.
  14. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    Ah heck Coaster. With the Drolet ya have to put up with the thicker steel, heavier baffle, lifetime warranty, standard brass trim, 20,000 BTUs higher output on cordwood, heat shields and all of that crap. Life is just to short to mess with all of that fluff. :lol:
  15. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    Here we are discussing all possible stoves yet we have not confirmed the outlet location. Does it have o be a rear exit? or can it be a top exit.

    What are the plans venting the stove? Venting is more important than the actual stove

    IF we want the biggest then why not Blaze King with the new super advanced cat system? Oh the Gph numbers do look good. Plus about 1 cu ft larger fire box
  16. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    actually , i havent studied it, i did look at the specs on the link, i'll have to look up the test standard they used, didnt see a GPH rating, dunno if its certified or exempt. looks like a nice unit. how big is the firebox?
  17. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    almost the same size firebox,30 takes a longer split, drolet window is bigger. comment on their specs page is confusing , 60k btu with epa test wood? that would be douglas fir, and a test charge is 15 lbs, thats about twice what everybody else shows for test btu output. does it come with leg option? is it mobile home approved? can it be sold in "green states"? is it american made?
  18. TMonter

    TMonter Minister of Fire

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    Because everyone knows non-cats are better stoves. %-P

    All kidding aside, unless you clean your cat every couple months I doubt the GPH numbers will hold up on any cat stove. Any time you reduce the cat area with use, you increase the flow of unburned combustibles. They had that test a while back and if you noticed, the stoves that suffered the most deterioration over time were cat stoves.

    I guess it depends on how you look at it.

    I'm a combustion engineer so I'm a purist, I like to see all effort made in the firebox design to promote good combustion and not have to use a expendable catalyst to combust hot gasses. Nothing really wrong with the cat approach, but personally I just don't find it appealing. The one thing it does seem to allow is slower longer burns, but at the same time it requires a more attentive stove owner.
  19. rhetoric

    rhetoric Member

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    My current stove vents out the top. Angles out to a mason chimney about 3 feet above the stove.

    The Englander does cramp my platform a bit. I might have to extend the front of the hearth. I have full brick surround, but I think the material behind the brick is just luann on wood studs. I know the brick isn't combustible, but I'm not going to feel good about less than 6 inches AND a heat sheild.
  20. Todd

    Todd Minister of Fire

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    What test are you refering to? And how far back? I think all stoves wether cat or non cat deteriorate over time and need some kind of maintenance. I've heard of plenty of non cat warped baffles on this site, even from the mighty Summit. And the GPH numbers won't hold up on either stove unless you burn 15% moisture content douglas fir, perfectly placed test charges like they do in the lab. All stoves need a attentive stove owner.
  21. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    Todd is quite eviden this guy has never burned a stainless steel cat combustor and does not realize that the next fire will cleans impurities left over from any previous burning

    Its statement that spout miss information baseless generalities without one shred of evidence, that I take exception to. Why spout off ,if it is quite evident you have no idea of what you are talking about? Riddle me this one Batman, please support you claim I do believe we are talking about the new Stainless steel Combustors found in the Blaze king stoves.
    I would welcome any substantiated options concerning these combustors. There is no s cermanic to clogg and the stainless steel has a much higher resistance to thermoshaock
    Als note there igition to secondary burn is not at 1000 degrees a not cat stove needs to burn smoke particulate but now reduced to 320 degrees It will burn cleaner than any non cat stove it burns particulate well before fire box temps reach 1000 degrees These cats can replace OEM cats and provide similar performance in used stoves. Name one approved after market product that provides this much enhancement to performance to non cat stoves?
  22. TMonter

    TMonter Minister of Fire

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    The combustors in Blaze King Stoves are still a ceramic Elk. The chamber may be stainless but the combustor is not. The catalyists are made by Sud-Chemie Pyrotek and are not stainless. They do have a stainless surround that holds the ceramic.

    Catalysts are a ceramic embedded with the reactive elements namely platinum and palladium. They also require substantially higher temps than 320 degrees (At least 500F to start) to work properly. If you can come up with a catalyst that works reliably at 320 degrees F Elk, I'll pay you good money for it.

    Read about the testing here:

    EPA Wood Stove Test

    The test is a bit old and I wish there were updated data but stove design hasn't changed that dramatically in the last 7 years.
  23. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    That what Ii talking about information Not general statements My Stovecombustor.com Claims Ignition at 380 but it is cermamic

    When at VC they( had a completely Stainless steel combustor And not just the housing) I have no idea where it was made they claimed could light off around 300 degrees

    The reason it is not in stoves is It still cost too much to bring it to market. However if a stove were to be equipped with one it would be the Intrepid

    due to it only have a small foot print


    About the Epa test to take advantage of even the 380 degree combustors the test procedures would have to be re -written

    at 380 fire box temps the kindling process could already be burning off the initial kindling smoke The testing is started after the kindling stage but proven 50% of smoke pollution occur es during kindling. m Today it may test the same but it has cleaned up its act long before the 1000 degrees have been met in the non cat fire box

    Currently In my Intrepid I an using a stovecombustor .com combustor it works fine. No complaints after two years use Really nice to burn cleaner extracting more energy out of the wood

    According to One of our members the Blaze king Rep w they were using the new completely stainless steel combustor. I only repeated what he said.

    I too want my hands on a combustor that can withstand thermo shock can get engaged earlier and burn cleaner

    Tmon Todd Lets take this out of this post and start a new one maybe threw discussion we can discover or disprove myths
  24. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Ah, the myth busters.........

    We have to set up the lab first!

    All materials have their place, and it should be noted that they melt stainless steel in large pots lined with........CERMAICS. The Space Shuttle also does not have a stainless steel belly, although it could be said that going from freezing cold to 3,000+ degrees at thousands of miles per hour was a pretty harsh "test"......

    I suspect there is a place for various combustors, but I think we heard earlier here that some manufacturers tried metal ones and were not happy. Keep in mind that there are many functions of the converter - it must have a LOT of surface area - that is the reason for the honeycomb. Also, the "noble" metals must stick to it well - platinum and/or palladium. I suspect ceramic does a better job at both (holding the catalyst and surface area).....

    Metals have all gone out of sight in price. That, plus the relatively small quantities of cat converters made for stoves, probably means higher prices. The exception may be a VERY common size like the round ones.
  25. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Given that wall construction, you are going to have to use whatever is in the manual as the clearance to COMBUSTIBLE wall......but I think this is quite low anyway, as long as the pipe is protected.

    The story is this - a brick wall like that cuts clearances by only 1/3 (NFPA) BUT, NFPA (generic stove) specifies no less than 12" to the original combustible wall. So in this case, you do not want to apply NFPA, but rather simply use the clearance on the stove label.

    I'm a bit confused by the table mentioning "side" heat shields, but assuming your install does not need them and also that your pipe is either protected or double wall (interior), I think you are in the ball park with the 6" - according to BB you need that anyway to install the blower (optional).....

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