Using Pellet Stoves for a Multi-Stage heating design?

[Don2222]

Hello

I am considering on doing some testing of a multi-stage pellet heating setup with 2 P-61a stoves.
There may be some advantages or disadvantages? Any comments?

Some possible advantages?
1. Faster house warming from a cold start
2. More heat on cold days
3. Only one T-Stat control with maybe a WiFi T-Stat
4. Reduce the possibility of losing all heat when one stove's pellet hopper runs dry
5. Reduce hopper filling intervals. Individual stove ON time may be less to use pellets slowly.
6. Cost of 2 used pellet stoves may be cheaper than a central pellet boiler.
7. Flexibility of heating by changing settings on each stove.
8. Backup or fail safe, if one stove quits the other will keep going.

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Some info from the Nest web site:
http://support.nest.com/article/What-is-a-multistage-system

Most multistage systems can be recognized by the wires attached to the thermostat. Conventional single stage systems will only have one wire for heating (W1) and one wire for cooling (Y1). Single stage heat pumps only have Y1 for both heating and cooling.

Multistage systems will have more than one heating or cooling wire. For example, three stage conventional heat uses wires W1, W2, and W3; Two stage cooling or heat pumps use Y1 and Y2. Some heat pumps also have auxiliary heat, an additional stage of heating that is only used when the heat pump compressor can’t keep up with cold weather conditions.
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Since there is no cooling here with a pellet stove heat system, we only need to wire W1 and W2 for a 2 stage pellet heating system.

The Layout in the split here is one pellet stove in the garage (Stage 1) which is under the living room and kitchen and the other stove in the basement (Stage 2) under the hallway and the bedrooms.

The T-stat would be located upstairs in the hallway between the bedrooms and the living room.

This system could work with any two basement stoves or 2 stoves in other locations as well.

 

[343amc]

I would think (my opinion only) that by the time you have two stoves to purchase, install and maintain in a setup like you described that a centrally ducted pellet furnace would be more ideal, assuming ductwork is already in place. I have no idea what a P61a goes for, but I'd guess a PF100 would be the same or less money than two freestanding stoves.

If the home doesn't have forced air already installed then scratch what I wrote above.

 

[Don2222]

I would think (my opinion only) that by the time you have two stoves to purchase, install and maintain in a setup like you described that a centrally ducted pellet furnace would be more ideal, assuming ductwork is already in place. I have no idea what a P61a goes for, but I'd guess a PF100 would be the same or less money than two freestanding stoves.

If the home doesn't have forced air already installed then scratch what I wrote above.

No forced hot air system here. I am not a fan of pellet boilers, they use alot more pellets. I do like the flexibility of a backup stove and the zoning possibility of having one stove settings different than the other. As far as the cost, 2 used Harmans are much cheaper and easier to obtain. The cost of a new pellet boiler and install is quite high.

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

No forced hot air system here. I am not a fan of pellet boilers, they use alot more pellets. I do like the flexibility of a backup stove and the zoning possibility of having one stove settings different than the other. As far as the cost, 2 used Harmans are much cheaper and easier to obtain. The cost of a new pellet boiler and install is quite high.

Disagree with your statement on pellet consumption. Any decent pellet boiler with automatic cleaning of burn pot and heat exchanger will save you at least 30% on pellet consumption over a pellet stove.
In NH there is a $6,000 incentive for these automated pellet boilers: Windhager BioWIN, Oköfen, Fröling P4

 

[smoke show]

Disagree with your statement on pellet consumption. Any decent pellet boiler with automatic cleaning of burn pot and heat exchanger will save you at least 30% on pellet consumption over a pellet stove.
In NH there is a $6,000 incentive for these automated pellet boilers: Windhager BioWIN, Oköfen, Fröling P4

How could that be when the input btu ratings are higher for furnaces?

 

[TheMightyMoe]

2 Stoves - A lot more work same price or more. Twice the maintenance.

One boiler / furnace - Comfort, control, efficiency (You can argue this, but a boiler is gonna put heat where you want / cycle efficiently if sized correctly / controlled right blah blah blah), the maintenance is about the same, however the fancier boilers are self-cleaning.

The list goes on...

Now if you like fire, set up as many stoves as you want, but your thermostat is going to constantly cycle the secondary stove off and on. It'll do the job though.

 

[Don2222]

A

2 Stoves - A lot more work same price or more. Twice the maintenance.

One boiler / furnace - Comfort, control, efficiency (You can argue this, but a boiler is gonna put heat where you want / cycle efficiently if sized correctly / controlled right blah blah blah), the maintenance is about the same, however the fancier boilers are self-cleaning.

The list goes on...

Now if you like fire, set up as many stoves as you want, but your thermostat is going to constantly cycle the secondary stove off and on. It'll do the job though.

That is why I choose P61a they require the least amount of maintenance. I still have a backup Buderus oil boiler

 

[Bioburner]

Probably wont need the full output of two p61s. Have primary larger unit and a smaller p series? The p45 with pellet kit puts out 50k. Invest in hopper extensions. The secondary stove won't need near the maintenance because of not being used as much. My main Harman handles over 80 percent plus of our home heating and the secondary Elena bumps those cold periods and mornings with its very fast light up to heat period.

 

[DexterDay]

I would put one upstairs in the Main living area. That's the best way to Heath home. Put the heat where its needed. A stove in the basement and one in the garage ? Both have to work harder to get the heat where its needed.

Lose the fireplace and run a liner up that chimney. Put a P-61 in the living room and leave the one in the basement for back up or when heat is needed down there.

 

[Don2222]

I would put one upstairs in the Main living area. That's the best way to Heath home. Put the heat where its needed. A stove in the basement and one in the garage ? Both have to work harder to get the heat where its needed.

Lose the fireplace and run a liner up that chimney. Put a P-61 in the living room and leave the one in the basement for back up or when heat is needed down there.

Hi Dexter

The garage is part of my work area and it needs to be heated in the winter so I can work. I just fixed the garage door so I do not loose anymore heat now.
See > > https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...t-again-or-junk-it.109612/page-2#post-1465630

No masonry fireplace upstairs just a zero clearance LP fireplace that vents straight through to the outside wall.

I think either P61 can heat the house from the basement, there is ductwork to the upstairs connected to the basement stove.

Therefore the garage can be stage II in the 2 stage heating design.

 

[Don2222]

Hello

Just found a good example of a 2 stage design using a gas furnace
http://www.daytona-air-conditioning.com/heating/what-is-a-2-stage-gas-furnace/

2 stage gas or oil furnace is similar to Hi/Lo on a wood pellet stove but not exactly.
The 2 stage T-start will also go from Lo to off if no heat is needed.

However the super complex algorithm in the Harman Control panel can do all this in one stove! ! !
In other words, the Harman will vary the BTU output from 0 to 60,000 BTUs depending upon how much heat is needed to keep the temperature constant! ! !

So in my case, the one Harman in the basement will do the job.

If I had a different stove where the heat level had to be set manually then a 2 stage design may be needed! ! ! ! One stove could be set on a low heat setting such as 1,2, or 3 for stage 1 and then the second stove could be set on 4,5, or 6 heat level. Therefore if the 1st stove is set to heat level 2 and the second stove was set to heat level 5 it would work as follows:
T-Stat calls for heat and stove 1 Heat level 2 comes on. If T-Stat is not satisfied then stove 2 comes on Heat Level 5 until T-Stat is satisfied.

 

[smwilliamson]

How could that be when the input btu ratings are higher for furnaces?

Cause they are almost 93 percent efficient.

 

[smwilliamson]

Don, you may be over thinking this a bit. Your trying to automate a system that is going to require so much supervision, adjustments and maintenance. How about selling your stash of refurbished Harmans and making some money? You can take all that cash and install a Windhager BioWIN 12kw system and be done with it.

 

[Don2222]

Don, you may be over thinking this a bit. Your trying to automate a system that is going to require so much supervision, adjustments and maintenance. How about selling your stash of refurbished Harmans and making some money? You can take all that cash and install a Windhager BioWIN 12kw system and be done with it.

That is a good idea but this is a good learning tool.
I just got done with installing another ignition upgrade kit. Everytime there is something different with those ignition kits! Last time the kit came with a new wire harness instead of a yellow wire to slip into the board connector! This time the control panel was already mounted to the board and the ignitor was already mounted to the burn pot. So I slapped it all in and got the 3 blinks with the distribution blower on constantly! LOL Took out the board and separated it from the panel and flipped DIP switches 5 and 6 down and guess what. It works!

Anyway, I was thinking that if I did setup Harmy 1 for stage 1 at a max feed rate of 2 and Harmy 2 for stage 1 and a max feed rate of 4, then I could connect them to a two stage internet T-Stat! Does that sound about right? This way Harmy 1 would be real stingy feeding the pellets getting up to temp on mild days and Harmy 2 would come on blasting when more heat was needed on real colder winter days!

 

[smwilliamson]

The feed rate isnt here for heat output, per se. It's there to balance out the feed when the unit cycles down from a high to low so the fire doesn't go out or smoke constantly.

 

[moey]

Seems like a square peg in a round hole. The big problem I can think of unless the heating area is very large is short run times.

 

[Don2222]

The feed rate isnt here for heat output, per se. It's there to balance out the feed when the unit cycles down from a high to low so the fire doesn't go out or smoke constantly.

The P61a owner's manual states you get more heat from the stove when the using a higher feed rate. So stage II should have the higher feed rate.
See below:


From the P61a Manual
Feed Adjuster Knob
For most premium grade pellet fuels the Feed Adjuster
Knob should be set at 4. If higher ash fuels are used
the setting should be increased to 5 or 6. Also higher
settings are required if you would like to get the
maximum heat output from the stove. At the maximum
burn rate (with the temperature dial on 7/90° and the
feed adjuster at 6) there should be 1" or more of ash
on the front of the burn pot. If there is less than 1" of
ash, turn the feed adjuster knob down to a lower setting.

 

[Don2222]

Seems like a square peg in a round hole. The big problem I can think of unless the heating area is very large is short run times.

On the stage I stove the run times will be longer with the feed rate set low, the heat output will never reach a high level thus saving fuel or wood pellets.

The stage II stove would only come on during very cold days and would run up to max heat to warm the house. It would only be on to give the house the extra boost. I have read alot of peoples stories saying their pellet stove is only good until the outside temps go down to 30 or 20 degrees. So in this case the stage II stove would come on blasting to get the house back up to temperature. This would solve the problem! ! !

 

[moey]

Id try it if I had two stoves installed and a thermostat not much to lose..

 

[DexterDay]

I still dont see how the heat gets from the garage to the house? Put heat where its needed. Wouldnt it be easier to open the door to the garage and let heat from the house into the garage? Rather than the other way? Is the garage sealed well? Insulated well?

 

[Don2222]

I still dont see how the heat gets from the garage to the house? Put heat where its needed. Wouldnt it be easier to open the door to the garage and let heat from the house into the garage? Rather than the other way? Is the garage sealed well? Insulated well?

Hi Dexter
The garage is under the kitchen and living room! When the door in the basement is opened to the garage the basement stove will heat it. So why not the other way around if the basement stove is down for service?

 

[DexterDay]

To much work to get it upstairs. A pellet stove upstairs would be the ideal situation.

 

[Don2222]

To much work to get it upstairs. A pellet stove upstairs would be the ideal situation.

No, not too much work. There is a zero clearance 30k BTU Heat N Glow fireplace with granite hearth and granite surround. No place for a pellet stove. A pellet stove would be too hot anyway.

 

[TheMightyMoe]

Win thread.

 

[moey]

I don't consider the air in my garage anything I want in my house. I suppose if you had nothing in there chemical wise I would consider it ok air. I have a mower, generator etc in there though.