VC Defiant 1945 Catalytic Stove Burn Times

[BrowningBAR]

Picked one up Saturday and have been running it since Sunday afternoon. (Note; this is not the new 2-in1 model)

I have it hooked up to a 6" liner in a walk-in fireplace (Where the Vigilant used to be). So far, it is running exactly how I had hoped.

First overnight burn was 10 hours of useable heat and each burn has gotten longer. This most recent burn cycle was started at 11:30 pm and 13.5 hours later the stove top is sitting at 305° with a good bed of coals. I will probably reload at an even 14 hours.

The catalytic system works well, but it is still behind Blaze King and Woodstock based on what I've read here. Locking in a temp isn't always consistent. You can have the air in the closed position and still have the stove top temps walk up to 600+ degrees. With this current burn I was able to lock in the temps at around 400-450° and, based on the burn time, it seemed to have stayed in that range overnight.

Also, the last night was the first legitimate 'full load' I've done since I got to a stack of wood that were 24" in length.

How does it compare to the Vigilant? The Vigilant comes up to temp more quickly since it is lighter and contains only single walled castings and no firebrick. Once up to temp, the Defiant puts out a lot more heat and moves the heat to the rest of the house far better. The Vigilant's burn times were, obviously, much shorter.

 

[charger4406]

Sounds like its burning well, although mine is the 2N1 it should be
very similar in burn time to yours and i regularly get 14-18 hrs
with a stove top at reload around 350 to 400,burning black birch or
sugar maple,what type of wood are you burning?
As for the Blaze King burn times I say it's alien technology lol.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Sounds like its burning well, although mine is the 2N1 it should be
very similar in burn time to yours and i regularly get 14-18 hrs
with a stove top at reload around 350 to 400,burning black birch or
sugar maple,what type of wood are you burning?
As for the Blaze King burn times I say it's alien technology lol.

Wow, nice burns. 14-18 burn times with a stove top of 350 is pretty damn good. I will be purchasing a second Defiant, and in a perfect world, it would be a new one. But I just picked up this Defiant in perfect condition for $400. If I find another deal like that, the used option will win again.

I am burning Oak and Ash. Mostly Ash since the majority of my Oak will not be ready until next winter.

 

[charger4406]

400$ is 0ne heck of a deal,congrats!
burn times will be real nice with oak,
enjoy the stove!

 

[jharkin]

Great report BBar. Never sen one in action but every report makes the defiant seem like a beast. Ive gone 13+ hours between loads on the lil' encore but that was with griddle temps averaging only in the 400s and dropping to 250 at the end.

Nice score!

BTW are you still running your Encore or did this replace it?

 

[BrowningBAR]

Great report BBar. Never sen one in action but every report makes the defiant seem like a beast. Ive gone 13+ hours between loads on the lil' encore but that was with griddle temps averaging only in the 400s and dropping to 250 at the end.

Nice score!

BTW are you still running your Encore or did this replace it?

I still have the Encore, but it hasn't been used much the last few days due to mild weather and me playing with the new stove. The best I've done with the 0028 is about 11 hours of heat.

Right now the line up is:
Defiant
Encore
Heritage.

The Heritage will be sold as soon as the weather warms up and I hope to be running two Defiants and an Encore... And never buy another stove again.

The Defiant is massive compared to the other four stoves I still have in the house (the Vigilant and the Intrepid are still here). The heat that it throws off at 250-300 is still very usable. The Encore and Heritage at 250-300 aren't nearly as noticeable.

 

[Diabel]

Hey BR
You sure are in the buying mode!!
Just curious, if you get 14 hrs out of the defiant and 11 hrs out of the encore
what is the load difference
in terms of splits/lbs??

 

[begreen]

Good to see you back BBar and congratulations on this year's addition. The Defiant is a serious heater. It sounds like you are already starting to get it dialed in nicely.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Hey BR
You sure are in the buying mode!!
Just curious, if you get 14 hrs out of the defiant and 11 hrs out of the encore
what is the load difference
in terms of splits/lbs??

11 hours for the Encore is not the norm for me. 6-8 hours during cold temps and 8-10 hours during shoulder season is what I am consistently getting from the Encore for my first year burning that stove. It would probably be a bit more, but it is partially stuck into a small fireplace so I lose some of its ability to move heat. The 11 hour burn I have only gotten a couple of times. I will have a lot more Oak that will be dry next year so I will see what that does to my burn times.

The Defiant is giving me at least 10 hours of actual heat per burn and the past two nights have given me 12 hours and 14 hours of actual heat. The burn time differences are influenced more by my split lengths than anything. I don't have a ton of splits that maximize the Defiant's firebox at this point. The last two nights I happen to run across a chunk of splits that were over 22" in length and that seemed to really do the trick. Tonights burn will probably be 10-ish hours due to split lengths and me forgetting to close the damper (the old Encore you push the lever back, the Defiant you pull the lever towards you).

The difference in the two fireboxes is huge and actually makes the Encore look small in comparison. Even the griddle seems massive on the Defiant. With the Encore, you can usually fit 4 good sized splits (on the larger size of medium) in there with enough space for one or two smaller splits.

With the Defiant, you can fit 6 to 8 large splits in the stove with enough space to wedge in a small split or two. The firebox is wider and taller than the old Vigilant, which has a good size firebox itself.

The Defiant running at 300-350 is putting out a good amount of heat. For me, once the Encore gets in the 350 and below range, the heat output really drops. Don't confuse that me thinking that the Encore is a bad stove, because it's not, I am just highlighting the difference between the two stoves.

Due to the fact that I am oversizing so much on the Defiant, I have no need to get the stove up above 500. 400-450 will probably be all I ever need. I used the Encore as a test to see if I could get a modern VC to work well for me, and it does. Now I am using this Defiant to see if it can be run at a lower temp on a consistent basis. So far, the answer is yes. Though, the occasional walk-up to 600 degrees with the air controls closed can and will happen.

When I get the second Defiant I will probably do smaller loads during the day and stuff the stove full at night for the super long burns. And, I gotta say, I am really looking forward to having the option of sleeping until noon on the weekend and not worrying about doing a cold start to two or three stoves.

 

[begreen]

I haven't slept til noon for decades. Don't think I could if I tried.

 

[gasavage]

BBar, I had the same experience with the Blue Defiant I had. I had cut all of the wood to 22 inch lengths for easier loading. Really like the top load! I could start with a 300 deg. stove in the a.m., load up & bring the temp up to 500 for 10 minutes or so to burn off the excess moisture, engage the cat, dial bach the air, and come back to a 300-350 deg stove 14 hrs later. I was heating over 2000 sq ft with it. 350 was the ideal temp to keep up with the heat lossof the house. The refractory was starting to crumble at the third year. I miss that stove.

 

[Stump_Branch]

Good to see your posts again browning.

400 beats any of my used finds. you sure do have a thing for them vc's.

Its good to hear that you may have figured out the best situation that allows you some quality of life outside loading a stove.

 

[Diabel]

Hey BR
You sure are in the buying mode!!
Just curious, if you get 14 hrs out of the defiant and 11 hrs out of the encore
what is the load difference
in terms of splits/lbs??

11 hours for the Encore is not the norm for me. 6-8 hours during cold temps and 8-10 hours during shoulder season is what I am consistently getting from the Encore for my first year burning that stove. It would probably be a bit more, but it is partially stuck into a small fireplace so I lose some of its ability to move heat. The 11 hour burn I have only gotten a couple of times. I will have a lot more Oak that will be dry next year so I will see what that does to my burn times.

The Defiant is giving me at least 10 hours of actual heat per burn and the past two nights have given me 12 hours and 14 hours of actual heat. The burn time differences are influenced more by my split lengths than anything. I don't have a ton of splits that maximize the Defiant's firebox at this point. The last two nights I happen to run across a chunk of splits that were over 22" in length and that seem to really do the trick. Tonights burn will probably be 10-ish hours due to split lengths and me forgetting to close the damper (the old Encore you push the lever back, the Defiant you pull the lever towards you).

The difference in the two fireboxes is huge and actually makes the Encore look small in comparison. Even the griddle seems massive on the Defiant. With the Encore, you can usually fit 4 good sized splits (on the larger size of medium) in there with enough space for one or two smaller splits.

With the Defiant, you can fit 6 to 8 large splits in the stove with enough space to wedge in a small split or two. The firebox is wider and taller than the old Vigilant, which has a good size firebox itself.

The Defiant running at 300-350 is putting out a good amount of heat. For me, once the Encore gets in the 350 and below range, the heat output really drops. Don't confuse that me thinking that the Encore is a bad stove, because it's not, I am just highlighting the difference between the two stoves.

Due to the fact that I am oversizing so much on the Defiant, I have no need to get the stove up above 500. 400-450 will probably be all I ever need. I used the Encore as a test to see if I could get a modern VC to work well for me, and it does. Now I am using this Defiant to see if it can be run at a lower temp on a consistent basis. So far, the answer is yes. Though, the occasional walk-up to 600 degrees with the air controls closed can and will happen.

When I get the second Defiant I will probably do smaller loads during the day and stuff the stove full at night for the super long burns. And, I gotta say, I am really looking forward to having the option of sleeping until noon on the weekend and not worrying about doing a cold start to two or three stoves.

Thanks BAR, great & detailed explanation. My 0028 does a great job in outside temps of 15s and up. Once it starts to dip below 15* the stove struggles and NG kicks in. I might be on a look out for a used defiant.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Good to see your posts again browning.

400 beats any of my used finds. you sure do have a thing for them vc's.

Its good to hear that you may have figured out the best situation that allows you some quality of life outside loading a stove.

VC became the solution for a few reasons:

Cost; I can find great condition stoves far cheaper than any other brand. Mostly due to the issues surrounding VC.

Control: I'd gladly pick up a 30 NC in a heart beat if I could pack it full and run it at 400 all day.

Size: The Encore is the largest stove I could find that I could fit into the Kitchen fireplace.

Weight: The Defiant weighs 518lbs. The Woodstock PH weighs about 200lbs more. I am concerned about placing 700+ lbs of stove on top of a heavy hearth in a room that is wood flooring and no underneath access to add support.

On going upkeep is a concern, though.

 

[Todd]

Where are the pics? Lol, sounds like you got a great deal and those long cat burns will make your life a little easier.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Where are the pics? Lol, sounds like you got a great deal and those long cat burns will make your life a little easier.

Speaking of pics. I tried to take pics on the way back of the snow storm I was stuck in. It was like a damn blizzard through much of upstate New York. It wasn't heavy snow, just a lot of fine snow, wind, and a lot of fog. Three car length was about the extent of the visibility. The snow would just roll and tumble through the air on the roads making visibility even worse.

From Doylestown, PA to Phelps, NY and back was about 11 hours. If the weather would have been better I probably could have shaved off two to three hours.

And for you Upstate New Yorkers, what's with all the wineries up there? I must have counted over a dozen large wineries on Lochland Rd that runs down Seneca Lake.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Where are the pics? Lol, sounds like you got a great deal and those long cat burns will make your life a little easier.

At $400 I could have spent that on just the Catalyst and Refractory Assembly. The owner got it from a VC dealer he did some work for. They couldn't afford to pay him in cash, so they gave him the stove to sell. The stove is nearly new. New firebrick, new cat, new assembly, gaskets in good shape, no ash to be seen in the firebox or the assembly. Also came with a new factory blower and rear heat shield.

 

[BrotherBart]

Sounds like you are getting the stove combo dialed in. No need to go stove shopping again. Well, until Fall. :lol:

 

[BrowningBAR]

Good to see you back BBar and congratulations on this year's addition. The Defiant is a serious heater. It sounds like you are already starting to get it dialed in nicely.

Still a little too much smoke when I engage the cat and I'm going to need to get a Cat probe for this thing. But, so far, it's running well.

Right now I have the air shut down and the temps have walked up from 450 to 650, which is one of the issues with the cat system on the VC stoves. Not a huge problem, but I'd like to minimize the occurrence of this. I'm thinking about messing with the secondary air holes in the casting that holds the ash pan and altering the primary air so it closes further.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Sounds like you are getting the stove combo dialed in. No need to go stove shopping again. Well, until Fall. :lol:

Hopefully I get the stove shopping out of the way before fall. But, finding another Defiant at the right price and in the right condition is hit or miss.

Here's to hoping some pre-EPA smoke dragon burner bought a nice 2-in-1 Defiant last fall and is completely unimpressed with the piece of crap so I can take it off his hands this spring.

 

[jharkin]

broken record alert... But I cant live without the cat probe. Got it halfway though my first season and ever since its my primary tool for regulating the stove. For example if you engage too early on a big load its immediately obvious because the cat temp will just sit around 800 or so. Without the probe Id never know other than going outside to take a look at the stack.

One thing I have noticed is that if the cat temp doesn't go up to at least 1100 at the start of a cycle thats a sign I engaged to soon. At temps of 1000 and below I will still smell smoke outside unless its down to coals. When I get a good light off I typically see cat temps between 1150 and 1650 for the active part of the cycle depending on the load and how much of its charred.

 

[BrowningBAR]

broken record alert... But I cant live without the cat probe.

A cat probe will be used on both Defiants since I will have easy access to the back of the stoves. The Encore is still up in the air due to the back portion of the stove is lodged into a small fireplace.

Got it halfway though my first season and ever since its my primary tool for regulating the stove. For example if you engage too early on a big load its immediately obvious because the cat temp will just sit around 800 or so. Without the probe Id never know other than going outside to take a look at the stack.

One thing I have noticed is that if the cat temp doesn't go up to at least 1100 at the start of a cycle thats a sign I engaged to soon. At temps of 1000 and below I will still smell smoke outside unless its down to coals. When I get a good light off I typically see cat temps between 1150 and 1650 for the active part of the cycle depending on the load and how much of its charred.

This is very accurate and I am experiencing this as well. I think a Cat probe will help out as I am trying to lock in at lower temps as I do not need the top end heat and I am looking to achieve the longest burn time possible.

 

[jharkin]

I learned some tricks this winter as I was figuring out how to avoid the full load cat stall. I worked out two different ways to start the cycle on a full load depending on how much heat is needed..

For a very long low burn:

- Reload early, while the prior load still has a good 3 inches of coals
- Open the air full with the cat still engaged on hte old load to get everything hot, you want the cat over 1000
- Open bypass and reload
- Let the load fire off only 5 minutes or so, as long as griddle temp is at least 450
- close bypass and shut the air as quick as you can in stages down to fully closed

If you do this right it only minimally chars the load and you get the cat locked in around 1150-1200 and a a good long slow burn. The key is having the catalyst preheated.

For a shorter hot burn:

- Reload time is not critical
- Open the bypass and air just long enough to warm up the flue for a good draw. Dont worry if the cat is cold.
- Open bypass and reload
- Let the load fire off as long as needed to get the griddle to 550-600 and the entire load in flames
- close bypass and keep the air open wide for a few minutes than reduce to half or so for a while. Close it down over a longer period of time, say a half hour or more.

Done this way you get a lot more of the load charred and off gassing and the cat temps will lock in higher. It tricky but Ive been able to get it to start over 1200 and then climb as high as 1500-1600 on fully closed air.

 

[BrowningBAR]

For a very long low burn:

- Reload early, while the prior load still has a good 3 inches of coals
- Open the air full with the cat still engaged on hte old load to get everything hot, you want the cat over 1000
- Open bypass and reload
- Let the load fire off only 5 minutes or so, as long as griddle temp is at least 450
- close bypass and shut the air as quick as you can in stages down to fully closed

That is how I got my 14 hour burn. Kind of accidentally, though. At about 8pm the stove needed a reload so I threw in 4 splits. At 11:30 the splits were still in log for, but when I put in more splits the existing fuel crushed down into a huge bed of coals. This allowed me to engage the cat sooner and keep a stove top temp of 450. Woke up the next morning with the stove still sitting at 400-450.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Also, when the stove has the air controls closed and the stove starts to walk up to 600+ I've started to open up the air controls and then close them back down. The last two times I've done this I got the temps back down into the 450 range.