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VC Defiant Encore model 2190 Long thread! Pics Dutchwest re-install!

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by VCBurner, Jan 20, 2011.

  1. raybonz

    raybonz Minister of Fire

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    Chris check this site out.. You may need it sometime..

    http://www.increa.com/reverse/defiant-encore-stove-catalytic-replacement/index.html


    Are these cats any good?? http://catcombustor.mybisi.com/product/24165/25-X-13-Defiant-Encore-2550-and-2190-Canned_67594.html

    Ray

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  2. VCBurner

    VCBurner Minister of Fire

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    Thanks again Ray, I actually followed the first site you posted while taking out the refractory assembly for inspection and clean up. It was a royal PITA. The heavy damper assembly actually has to be pulled out while keeping it from hitting the refractory box and unbolting the bolts from the outside of the stove. I can see why people crush these boxes while taking out the secondary components. The next time I take out this box, I will have something inside to support the weight of the damper assembly. Luckily, it is done now and the cat can be replaced by simply removing an access panel from the refractory box.

    As far as the Clear Skies, cats in the second link, I saw those a while back and though about them but couldn't find where I put them in my favorites. So thanks for posting the link again. Their home page states that the combustors are only an inch thick. Automatically you think that they may not be able to compete with other thicker cats, as far as heat output and particle removal. But, you presented a good question: does anyone have one of these cats in their stove? Are they any good?
  3. raybonz

    raybonz Minister of Fire

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    Those Clear Sky cats seem to have a large surface area but I am thinking they would/could clog and be hard to clean.. Man I am surprised how expensive your VC cat is.. I think they probably sell alot less of those vs a standard 6"x2" like Dutchwest uses.. I hate it when companies disregard upkeep cost on their products!

    Ray
  4. Diabel

    Diabel Minister of Fire

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    I have been following this thread, but too busy to post.

    Chris,

    When you say lots of creo. from the DW can you quantify it....

    How big of space are planning on heating with the encore?

    That cat looks marginal (I would not call it dead) only few cells that are cracked. I would still put it to use, especially during learning period.

    I got one of the cats from Clear Skies..... 1" with the ceramic mesh (you could hardly see through it new!!). When cleaning the stove back in Nov. I decided to inspect & clean the cat. I swapped with the CS one. At first it worked fine, it would actually light off sooner than OEM. By X-mas I noticed the stove performing sluggish....& the back of it was not throwing much heat. I took it out & it was 75% clogged with fine particle. It was very hard to clean...! The CS cat is sitting on a shelf ever since.

    I my opinion, I would clean the chimney & put the DW back in the room for the rest of this season.....

    btw the encore looks like it is in a great shape!!
  5. VCBurner

    VCBurner Minister of Fire

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  6. Diabel

    Diabel Minister of Fire

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    You should not be getting any of that black shiny stuff, there might be an air leak in the chimney set up.
    The encore will do just fine in this square footage.
    Had I known....I would not bother with CS cat....

    Make sure to replace all the gaskets, easy job plus you will have no doubts come next Sept. Also, since you took out the refactory...take a strong light & look for gaps around the seams (specially the bottom corners). You could remove the inner side plates & do the same (10min job).

    Good luck!
  7. VCBurner

    VCBurner Minister of Fire

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    These are the pics looking up the flue. The first four I was laying down on the base of the fireplace. So the bottom of the pictures would be the part closest to the inside of the house, the top would be the side closest to the exterior of the house.

    So I'll try to explain the pics:

    1. You can see the clay liners (6 3/4" x 11 1/4" inside measurement) in the chimney just past the smoke chamber. But this sort of explains the lack of draft from this set up! The tile liners actually start almost 4 feet from where the top of the stove would be! This is a huge are for the smoke to circle around! The total length from top of stove to daylight is 13 feet. This makes it about 9 feet of actual tile lined flue. Despite this poor set up, my Dutchwest heated the entire house more than comfortably, even with below zero temps. This says a lot about this stove. It is a mystery to me that some people can complain about the Dutchwests.

    2. This shows the fireplace flue damper closed. You can sort of see by the moon shaped smoke stain on the bottom of the picture that the whole on the block off plate is too far forward. You can also see the shiny streaks on the flue damper. They are dry to the touch.

    3. You can sort of put the two pics 1+2 and see now on this that the flue is open. You can see the flaky spot that fell off.

    4. You see the lintel where the block off plate connects from front to back. The center of the whole on the block off plate would be about at the center of the picture, just off to the left.

    5. This is a pic of the surface of the block off plate that would be visible if you looked up the fireplace. It is down on the bottom of the fireplace. You can picture how the back side of the plate would just need to flip up into the fireplace.

    6. This is the block off plate ready to be lifted into the fireplace. Although, next time it goes up it'll have a pipe going into the tile lined portion of the chimney at least.

    So, now we all know how not to install a stove! Although it has gotten me through this winter it will not be operated this way again! I need at least a four to five foot piece of flex liner in order to come close to the manuals specifications. An SS liner would be ideal. This would still leave me three feet short of the recommended 16 feet required for either the Dutchwest or the Encore. So an extension would have to go up on top. Which only leaves me with a wind driven downdraft, caused by the giant pines on that side of the yard. I could use a vacu stack cap, to solve this issue.

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  8. raybonz

    raybonz Minister of Fire

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    Wow Chris that looks like a chimney with no clay liner! Your chimney is huge for a wood stove and you definitely need a 6" insulated liner there.. I would think you have a lazy draft with that setup combined with less than seasoned wood adding up to creosote.. I think you'll see a big improvement with an insulated liner in that situation.. I know adding that insulated liner here made a world of difference even though I had a 7"x7" ID square liner and I feel you'll benefit in much the same way that I did here.. Improving the draft makes all the difference along with seasoned wood I will say that! Thanx for all the great pics too!

    Ray
  9. certified106

    certified106 Minister of Fire

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    +1 on adding the insulated liner!
    I can't believe it actually drafts like that. If/When you put the liner in you will probably notice a huge difference in the stove performance.
    On a side note I'm extremely disappointed to not hear your review on the Defiant performance. I am still looking at a new stove and the 2in1 has my interest peaked quite a bit so I was looking forward to a comparison of the Dutchwest and Defiant side by side.
  10. BrowningBAR

    BrowningBAR Minister of Fire

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    He actually had a thread on this. At first he was disappointed in it, but he seems to be figuring it out and it is heating better. The thread is around here somewhere. I am also leaning towards a 2-in-1 Defiant to replace the Vigilant.
  11. VCBurner

    VCBurner Minister of Fire

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    Were you referring to the thread at the bottom of my signature Browning?
  12. BrowningBAR

    BrowningBAR Minister of Fire

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    Actually, I was mistaken. I thought the "certified106" was referring to the previous poster, who I thought was "Wyld Bill". I thought Certified was asking about Wyld Bills review of his Defiant. I was lost.
  13. VCBurner

    VCBurner Minister of Fire

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    Ray, please scroll back a few posts and see what I added explaining the pictures. The chimney is lined, but the tile liners don't start untill after the smoke chamber, about four feet up. I knew it needed a liner, but it wasn't until today, after measuring to the liners that I got a better picture of how badly I needed it.
  14. VCBurner

    VCBurner Minister of Fire

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    I can't believe it either! I had no problem with draft on the old cast iron box that was in there before, except for the windy downdrafts. But, then again all the heat just went up the flue with that thing! No baffles, no secondaries, a lot more heat for the great outdoors! ;-P Again, this goes to show what a great stove the dutchwest has been for me. I only had problems with smoke when it was windy. This chimney also downdrafts when the wind gusts reach about 30-40.

    I'm disappointed about the cat on the Encore also. The guy said it was six year old. Which to me meant on the cusp or needed to be replaced. But it is a lot worse off than the cat I just replaced on the DW. Which makes it unworthy of burning since I have a great stove in the DW!
  15. VCBurner

    VCBurner Minister of Fire

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    Hey Browning, do you have liners on all your chimneys or do you just have a piece of flex up to the tile liners?
  16. raybonz

    raybonz Minister of Fire

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    Sorry about that Chris I just rechecked that post.. You may find your downdraft problem goes away once you add that liner.. Once they get warm they draw really well! I would take a wait and see approach on that before I added a draft enhancer..Your DW is gonna kick butt once you get that draft squared away!

    Ray
  17. VCBurner

    VCBurner Minister of Fire

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    I think once I line with a regular cap it may be enough. Considering how well the stove did just being dumped into that huge space. I should have bought the liner before purchasing the Encore, but I just could not pass on the deal. I guess it remains to be a proven deal.
  18. BrowningBAR

    BrowningBAR Minister of Fire

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    All three are lined. It was pricey, but I wanted to get it out of the way. If I had a stove that wasn't heating properly I wanted to be sure it was not due to a bad setup. I spent about $5,500 on the three liner installs alone. I think it was money well spent as I have seen way to many threads on here with issues related to a poor chimney setup.

    Meanwhile, my three stoves only cost me $1,800 total.
  19. raybonz

    raybonz Minister of Fire

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    Yup I feel with a new liner things will be different however that Encore refractory business is scary to me.. Sorry I have a hard time thinking that Encore will hold up with normal usage.. Meanwhile I feel your DW will run along happily no matter what the Encore does.. It's a shame VC decided that refractory was the way to go and I feel they are building in parts sales to ensure future profits.. Until proven otherwise that is how I feel.. Sorry as that is a beautiful stove Chris..

    Ray
  20. VCBurner

    VCBurner Minister of Fire

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    Well, I didn't line the entire chimney yet! But, I put in a pipe extending 4.5 feet up from the top of the stove into the tile lined section of the chimney. It was a tough job. I got rid of the fireplace flue damper, by just removing a cotter pin and pulling it out completely. The chimney was swept from the top down and the smoke chamber was scraped with a stiff wire brush and the chimney brush connected to a rod, from the bottom up. What surprised me the most was the amount of debris that had gathered behind the fireplace damper. Altogether, I filled about a gallon of a 5 gallon bucket. Of that gallon, only a quart came from the chimney and smoke chamber. The remaining 3 quarts came from the smoke shelf behind the damper plate of the fireplace. I found a pine cone and even a couple of leaves in there! Every time I looked up into the chimney, it looked clear and clean. Little did I know there was a ton of stuff hidden in that shelf. I removed most of it by brushing it down with my hands, the vacuum got the rest out. In addition, I moved the whole on the block off plate in order to line it up with the chimney better. The first fire in the DW, or in the house for that matter, since February 26th is burning right now! I missed it so.

    Here are some pictures I took after the clean up. They were all taken after the block off plate was placed back into the fireplace.

    1. You can see the offset whole, patchwork on the tin and the pipe sticking down from the block off plate.
    2. I tried to take this one so you could see up the pipe.
    3. get a better view of how the block off plate fits in the fireplace
    4. a brand new 90 goes into the new pipe and is ready for a stove!
    5. OK, I know how you guys like to look at the fire. Post cleaning fires are the best!
    6. Alright, I'll add one more, twist my arm!
    Sorry I'm such a bad photographer!

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  21. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Get thee a liner in there. You and your family deserve safer heating.
  22. VCBurner

    VCBurner Minister of Fire

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    +1 BG. It'll be the first thing I get before next heating season. Who knows now that I'm finally going back to work Monday, maybe it'll be a lot sooner than I thought. I was laid off since November. This is the third winter off in a row. Things are tough in this economy even with in commercial construction. Helps to have the union connections, otherwise I'd be doomed. A big commercial construction company in this state has all but gone under, at least we union guys have an array of good companies to rely on. Some of those non union guys are now on our side. When the $#!/ hits the fan we all become sort of the same. I guess I'm on the positive side of the coin, even though I lost my health insurance for six months last year and dental was gone six months before that for the first time in almost 10 years in the union. Just got a letter in the mail the other day saying I'm qualified from 4/11 -9/11. Wood stoves for me are a lifeline. I would not be able to afford the oil to heat the house otherwise. Since I moved in here in December of 2007 we have had the housing market collapse and things haven't been the same. Last year things actually started to look up a little, as far as annual income. My best year was 2007, 2008 was $25,000 lower than that of 2007. Last year was about $15,000 less than 2007. I hope to match 2010 this year, that would be on the plus side for us. Things are looking up with this coming job, another Holy Cross new dorm building. Thank God for the colleges. They usually start picking up guys this time of year and the jobs last into the early Fall and often require lots of overtime to complete before the shool year starts. It usually gives us a cushion to survive the winter off. Hard to budget making a years wages in about 8 months. Lots of hard work and little time to process wood! Then it's back to idle in the winter. Such has been the tale for the past 3-4 years. I hope for the entire country's sake the economy picks up. I think it can only get done by getting back to basics. Bring the jobs back to the US. Spread the wealth.

    At least for now, she's heating well with the pipe extending into the tile liners.
    God Bless,
    Chris
  23. BrowningBAR

    BrowningBAR Minister of Fire

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    That seems to be about as much as I get from the Vigilant.
  24. VCBurner

    VCBurner Minister of Fire

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    Wow! This chimney had not been cleaned since I moved in in 2007. Of course, I burned about two cords in it as a fireplacxe the first winter. The second and third winter, I had the Atlanta stove works old cast iron box in it. Burned about 4-5 cords in it then. This year, the DW created more build up due to some people, who I won't mention, trying to load wood into the stove with the damper down, YES the damper was down. Wife and I were out and the babysitter tried to load the stove one time. The other time it was my mother in law. They were both experienced burners on non EPA stoves. Both had operated thermostatically controlled Surdiacs. Neither had ever operated an EPA stove and ended up clogging my cat! It took a few times of really cranking up the temps to detox the cat each time. I could only imagine the smoke that came into the house! By the time I came home I could only smell smoke. I told them both NOT TO TOUCH the stove. They didn't listen. But yours makes this much mess huh?! No wonder you want to replace it. The thing must chew through some wood no?
  25. BrowningBAR

    BrowningBAR Minister of Fire

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    Just to be clear, I was referring to the "gallon" part. Not "5 gallon".


    Somewhere between this:
    [​IMG]

    and this:
    [​IMG]

    Which is interesting because when I go up to clean the chimney I can see a LOT of the stainless-ness of the liner when I clean it. Hardly looks dirty. I'll try to take some pics when I clean it this year.

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