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Vermont Castings "Defiant" vs Quadrafire "Isle Royale" vs Jotul "600 firelight"....

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by Mr_Super-Hunky, May 22, 2007.

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  1. Mr_Super-Hunky

    Mr_Super-Hunky New Member

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    So, {Banging head against wall in confusion!}, According to VC chart re pipe sizing, 7600 elevation using 6'' pipe should be 25'. So here's the brazillion dollar question:

    Since our height is 30' (5' more than VC chart), would that make our performance using 6''pipe:

    a.) Better
    b.) Worse
    c.) No significant difference
    d.) Who cares, move on!

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  2. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    I believe if you look at that VC chart, it is clearly labeled as MINIMUM height at a given altitude, or the shortest pipe that their engineers think will perform well in all conditions (note that some folks do get away with shorter pipes, that graph incorporates the usual degree of "engineer conservative margins")

    In theory, draft tends to improve with increased stack height, so your 5' taller stack should have more draft.

    Part of what drives a chimney's draft is that the air entering it is expanding due to stove heat, and the longer the air stays hot the more effectively you will draft, so having most of your chimney inside will also improve the draft.

    That your location has a significant amount of wind may also improve your draft when the wind is blowing.

    So I'd expect that you will have very good draft with 6" pipe, but not so much so as to be totally exceptional.

    Gooserider
  3. Highbeam

    Highbeam Minister of Fire

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    So did you measure your 30' chimney height from the bottom of the firebox or from the top of the stove or from the floor below the stove?
  4. Mr_Super-Hunky

    Mr_Super-Hunky New Member

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    highbeam: The 30' height is from the floor to the top of the ceiling. An addl 4-5 feet will go on top (outside) the roof to meet code. I went ahead and subtracted 5 feet fro the equasion as the piping will start from the top of the stove, not the bottom of the floor.
  5. scotty

    scotty Member

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    Hey! Careful of the wall! The answer is that as long as the smoke stays hot, the longer the pipe; the greater the draft. I believe you are calling that increase in draft "better" - although what some of us are saying is that with a vertical stack and insulated pipe for the full run then it might be too much of a good thing. By "draft" we mean the quantity of mass that goes past a certain point in a certain period of time. That is "mass flow" - often written as a small letter "m" with a single dot over it and pronounced "m dot". Think of it as the velocity of a mass of fluid. In this case the fluid is smoky air. Smokestacks are pretty mudh of a science rather than an art or opinion. Since smokestacks are expensive as well as important then much is known about how to build them. Since you have defined the pipe so well, VC should be able to give you an exact answer; I would not depend on the altitude versus pipe length installation graph for your answer.
    I think you have chosen the right stove. The pipe is just as important.
    Scotty
  6. MountainStoveGuy

    MountainStoveGuy New Member

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    A 8 inch chimney will draft stronger once its hot, getting it hot is more difficult at first, but once it gets hot it has more volume of hot air in side of the chimney, and it pulls harder. This is not what you want,. You dont want to much draft and you dont want to llitle draft. To much draft sucks alot of the combustion gasses right out of the stove before the stove gets a chance to burn them. You want just the right amout of chimney, if your stuck with a a 30' chimney, no way in hell would i install 8".
  7. Mr_Super-Hunky

    Mr_Super-Hunky New Member

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    [quote author="MountainStoveGuy" if your stuck with a a 30' chimney, no way in hell would i install 8".[/quote]


    Now this is the type of answer I am looking for!!.
  8. bmstove.com

    bmstove.com New Member

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    I own an Isle Royale and it does an awesome job heating my 1940 constructed 2500 square foot uninsulated home. When it gets into the teens and single digit temperatures we compensate with the furnace in the mornings. The Isle Royale is a great stove. HOWEVER, if the Lopi Leyden had been on the market I would prefer it to the Isle Royale due to the top load limitation of the Isle Royale. If you have not buned one, you may not know what I mean. Anyone who has actually used an Isle Royale knows that when the secondary burn mechanics are turned up and out of the way of the top load door, the back half of the firebox in not accessible for loading. To really load the firebox, it must be done through the front door.

    For bigger homes and for those that can't live with the old-style feet ot the Hearthstone Mansfield, I am gonna suggest waiting on the new Equinox which is like an oversized heritage with the new styling and legs. I have been the southest dealer of the year for 2 years running and I know Hearthstone well. Yep, they have things slip by them and get into the market but I can also say that they are unmatched in eagerness to make these slips right. I am confident that the equinox is going to be a great addition to the Hearthstone lineup. Large stoves is nothing new to Hearthstone. The Mansfield was a downsized replacement to a huge stove that had become unpopular. Now we are in a 2 year trend of the big stove becoming more popular. In a couple of years you will see other companies trying to come up with their own Behemoth stoves.

    When did Pacific Energy become synonymous with quality? I've not seen anything innovative or overly well built by them in my opinion.

    If you're gonna be burning a lot of pine, you will want a huge firebox if you expect that thing to burn all night. You may even (did not hear it from me, LOL) want to put a lump of coal on your wood before going to bed in colder weather. For that you don't want a catalytic stove (and for the pine reasone; too risky). I have burned a coal/wood mix in my mahogany Isle Royale for 3 straight years and have no issues whatsoever. The enamel has not even crazed! I do not burn coal exclusively but have a time or two and used an additional grate to do so.

    For you square footage and open floorplan, you wont be disappointed in the Equinox. The energy off the stones is second to none and you can live close to the stove while it heats huge spaces.

    for a 30+ foot chimney, I would go 6 inch for sure. That tall and insulated, you could probably add a 3" takeoff to the stove and have a central vacuum for cleaning the floors!

    Good luck.

    Jack
  9. Highbeam

    Highbeam Minister of Fire

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    I would like to agree with BM Stove that when hearthstone had an assembly error on my stove that they were very eager to get it resolved. No unanswered emails and ignoring from the manufacturer or their dealer. Coal? Really?
  10. bmstove.com

    bmstove.com New Member

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    In my big, old, drafty house I burn my isle Royale HOT all winter long and the fire never dies out. For a while I would get up at 2 or 3 am and reload the big beast so the fire would still be going in the morning and the house would not be too cool. This became a huge chore. As you know, in the winter there is no rest for the stove guy and I needed my sleep. I decided to see if I could extend my hot burn times by blending lump coal with my wood. I bought a lot of lump coal (coal which is in large chuncks and not crushed) and would lay a large chunk or two on top of my firewood at night. Once the firewood burned down the coal would continue to burn and would be resting atop the insulation of the wood coals and ash. This seemed to keep my integrated grate from being damaged from the high heat of the coal. Even with the stove burning on high burn, I could go to bed and 10 and get up the next morning with a few large glowing red lumps of coal. Throw in a batch of wood and the Isle Royale was back blazing again. A couple of times my wood supplier took too long getting to me and I actually stuck a secondary grate in the stove and burned coal exclusively for a coupld of days. No problems at all and the stove still works like new. We're preparing for our 4th winter and no a blemish on the stove.

    Coal actually burns quite clean after it ignites. Sure it smells and smokes while getting up to temp but shortly into the burn, coal is quite nice. The lazy orange flames are also hypnotizingly attractive. I like it quite a bit.

    Thanks for the input on hearthstone by the way. I think most if not all owners that had an issue would say the same. I don't mind saying that hearthstone has called me up to see what is taking me so long to make a warranty repair. Warranty appointments mid-season sometimes get shuffled with emergency calls. Hearthstone does not mind calling to "encourage" their dealers to make things right for them. It's what we're here for and they are as good as anyone at backing their warranty. I like dealing wtih them a lot. Even for Vermonters, they can be quite personal and pleasant (DID I SAY THAT OUT LOUD)! That comes from a funny I remember a few years back while I was at the HearthStone factory. I commented on how nice Vermont was and the local I was talking to quickly responded, "well, don't move here!"
  11. Mr_Super-Hunky

    Mr_Super-Hunky New Member

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    BMStove:

    I really wished that Hearthstone made a *different* looking version of the Mansfield as everyone on this forum had highly suggested that the mighty Mansfield would be the ultimate "functional" choice.

    Of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I certainly don't want to offend anyone that owns a Mansfield. From what I have read, it is an absolute dream of a stove to have and operate. Unfortunately, between the "duck-feet", the stone only comming in grey, and the glossy enamel paint, Mrs Hunky would not give in due to its aesthetics. She said it looked like it belonged in a Liberace museam.

    Personally, I really like the victorian look of the Mansfield, but we have a rustic log home in which the victorian/colonial motiff sort of clashes. Since there are other large stoves that can also heat our needs (that meet Mrs Hunkt's approval aesthetically), thats the route we have decided to take.

    I have heard rumors of the "equinox", but even after numerous internet searches, I have come up empty.

    If you have any info on this stove, I, as well as others would love to hear about it. Timing may also be an issue as I must purchase and install whatever stove I buy no later than early fall..(September).

    As far as the quality of a Pacific Energy stove, you may want to read the numerous reviews on this site and others. I have yet to find a single owner who has not rated their PE stove as "excellent" and would buy it again or reccomend it to others. (again, check out the reviews on this site!).

    Thanks for your reply
  12. bmstove.com

    bmstove.com New Member

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    Nor do I have anything negative to say about PE. They are a good product; just nothing outstanding as compared to their competitors. Their marketing scares me a little as I do not believe that their specs mate up with their claims unless their ideal house has 6 foot ceilings and is insulated with strawbales. I did not mean to give a negative impression on PE. I like them, really.

    OK, as for the equinox, I am not sure I am at liberty to release an image but I will say if you look at the heritage wood stove and stretch it to about 30% wider, you would have a very good idea of the look of the Equinox. It is really attractive and should be quite the work-horse. And the best part, NO DUCK FEET! The Mansfield is the only stove left with the traditional style feet. The homestead still uses the traditional style door but has unuque feet that are much nicer. The equinox has the new style full-view door and also the side load like the heritage. I think someone mentioned this but we anticipate the Equinox to be between 100K and 120K BTU. sweeeeeeet. I already have a hearth cleaned off for an equinox here at the shop. I'm looking forward to putting it through its paces here this winter.

    The equinox is due to ship later this summer mid july to mid august.


    Jack
  13. Mr_Super-Hunky

    Mr_Super-Hunky New Member

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    Jack:

    I understand your reluctance to release a photo of the equinox (that is if you have one), but I would really like to see it. If you have a pic, could you possibly p.m me or direct me to a location where I could see it?.

    I really doubt that Hearthstone would frown upon a potential sale!, and lets face it, all the "buzz" is certainly good for business.
  14. bmstove.com

    bmstove.com New Member

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    I'll check in here in the morning. The only photo I have is a copy and is at the bank in a safe deposit box. JUST KIDDING AGAIN!

    yea, I have one at the store I can get to ya. It is a copy so I may have to fax it if you have a #. It is really nice. Like a big, wide heritage.

    Jack
  15. dtabor

    dtabor New Member

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    bmstove,

    Hey, just getting to catch up on this post.....I take exception to your Vermonter comment!!! hehe. I happen to live 10 miles from the Heartstone plant and I consider myself quite pleasant thank you very much.......Just have a problem with those flatlanders coming up here, clogging up our roads, driving like maniacs but we'll take their tourist money and put it in our economy (there are some that will buy a photo of a common holstein cow in a plain frame!! Its a VERMONT cow after all, they're different)...........hmmm, did I say that out loud??? hehe....jk, all in fun.

    D
  16. bmstove.com

    bmstove.com New Member

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    :bug: Gotcha bro. I really was just making a joke about that conversation I had up there. I love you all and your state is an awesome place to be for sure. Hope I can come back again soon and see what has changed, get me some of that Ben & Jerry's and go back home. I promise, :)

    Jack
  17. dtabor

    dtabor New Member

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    Yep, knew you were joking, just had to get my own digs in at ya! The B&J plant is 9 miles from where Im sitting at this very moment. Thats the place to work if you dont watch your wieght. They can take home like a pint or more a day of the seconds. Dont forget the syrup when you go home!!!

    D
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