vermont castings ewf30 sequoia II technical questions

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elrack

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Jan 4, 2007
17
Hi guys, this is my first post so first off hello. Now right to my questions. I have the above mentioned fireplace and am somewhat in the dark on how it is designed. I understand the everburn technology which is essentially wood gasification. What I don't understand is where the firebox pulls primary air into itself, how the air intake control works and where the air wash system gets its air from. These questions are stemming mainly from the fact that I am not really noticing any difference in heat output/burn times when using the air intake control. Any help would be great.

Thanks,
Carl

Anybody?
 
Carl,

I have the same insert as well, and I notice that the supposed air control does little in the output as well. I have notice that logs tend to last longer when it it is supposedly in the closed position but not much.
There was an issue with mine and they had it apart so I saw what it was like on the inside, the flap is pretty small and has 2 holes in it.
As for the air, there should be a kit that was installed on one side that goes outside the house to a dryer vent flap. This is where the air on mine is pulled from.
The air wash is BS, our glass is dirty after each fire.
We are not getting much heat from ours, pretty upset with it, I think a small electric Ceramic heater throws more off. I think it is a waste of money.

Jason
 
Jason said:
Carl,

I have the same insert as well, and I notice that the supposed air control does little in the output as well. I have notice that logs tend to last longer when it it is supposedly in the closed position but not much.
There was an issue with mine and they had it apart so I saw what it was like on the inside, the flap is pretty small and has 2 holes in it.
As for the air, there should be a kit that was installed on one side that goes outside the house to a dryer vent flap. This is where the air on mine is pulled from.
The air wash is BS, our glass is dirty after each fire.
We are not getting much heat from ours, pretty upset with it, I think a small electric Ceramic heater throws more off. I think it is a waste of money.

Jason

Welcome to both of you Jason and Carl, hope you both enjoy the forums. I'm not familiar with the specific insert that you have, but will try to help.

First off Jason, the connection to the outside air that you are talking about is not a critical part of the stove. It is what is known as an "Outside Air Kit", which we usually refer to as an OAK for short. It is required in some installs and some jurisdictions, but it isn't really part of the insert, and the stove will work fine without it in many cases. Some folks even argue that it can cause problems in some setups. All the OAK does is set up a duct so that the stove will draw it's combustion air from the outside, rather than the room the stove is in.

However, it does pinpoint where all the combustion air on that stove gets drawn in at, and it then gets portioned out to the various parts of the stove. Some goes into the Everburn system, some goes to the airwash, and some goes to the primary air. The air control regulates the primary air, and allows more or less air in according to how it's set. However this is only a small part of the air that enters the stove, and the EPA clean burning rules keep you from being able to shut the stove down beyond a limited point, thus the control doesn't have a huge effect on the heat output, you probably want to do most of your heat output control by adjusting the size of the fires you build.

I haven't heard many complaints though about that insert not being a good heater. I'm wondering if you have either a mechanical issue, or possibly aren't running the stove in the best way. Hopefully some of the other experts will chime in here and suggest what the problems might be.

Gooserider
 
Gooserider
Funny you mention fire size as the control, it really takes me some time to build a really good bed of coals in it, once I do I can throw a quite few logs in it and it will maybe go for 3-4 hours not the 8-10 Hours that they advertise when I turn the air control all the way down. They will burn totally down, but not last as long as they said. I have been using very well seasoned oak, Birch, and maple, using mostly oak. If I have a small fire going the room temperature will remain constant, the heat in the house might kick on once every while, if I get a big fire going I can get the room up 2 degrees, depending on the outside temperature, so I know that I cannot be getting the output advertised and they give a big range 11,100-40,500. IT would lead you to think with that range you can control it, which it seems you cannot with the controls. The other inserts we looked at had controls for heat output as well and the one I saw running definetly was much better than the one on the VC.

I also have to say I have not been impressed at all with Vermont Castings as a company. The stove arrived damaged this past spring when the house was being built- the handles were broken, front grill bent and paint off the grills as well. Than after it was installed found the air control not installed correctly (would not move). The company took months to get the replacement parts (like 5-6 months) and we are still trying to get a new handle for it, the one we have we had to epoxy back together. We have gone as far as contacted Vermont Castings and they put it on the local rep, they will not answer or do any support. The local rep was supposed to come out and look at the unit, he quit and now it is in someone elses hand. My builder says the same that I do, no way is this 40k BTU's an hour, and will heat up to 2400 sq ft, which is about the size of the house (2700)...

My builder has given our rep 2 weeks to get out to the house, if they do not come out he plans on filing a law suit against them as well as the company since no one will respond to the requests of the damage. And than we come to find out there has been a recall on some of these units!

I will let everyone know how we make out, but right now I regret not getting a Security BIS.
 
Thanks for the replies. This is an update to my first post. I ended up figuring out how the air is distributed through out the fireplace. It makes sense to me now.

Jason, I am getting some good burn times with the fireplace, at least 8 hours. 3-4hrs of that keeps the house about 70-72 degrees (2400 square foot, with 22' ceiling in the room with the fireplace). I attached a thermocouple on top of the fireplace, right next to the box that has the air intake control flap in it. I monitor the temperature there to guage how much heat the fireplace is putting out. with that in mind here is what I have experienced. With the temperature running between 380-460 will get my 70-72 in the house. Once it starts dropping below that it does not put out enough heat to heat the house. Also at this temp I get the "dancing flames" from the secondary burn. The only way I can get the fire to burn any hotter is to run with the door slightly cracked. This way kicks out some serious heat, the fire will run 600-650 but I cut my burn times in half or more. So I am of the opinion that the air is metered to get the good burn times at the cost of heat output. It would be nice to have more control over the air intake.

I have had good luck for the most part with the dealerthat installed the fireplace as well as the vermont castings. When I found out about the recall, VC sent two guys within 2 days to add the insulation that was missing. I also had the firebrick that lays just inside the door break as well as the top louvre set break and they sent free replacements to me right away. The firebrick arrived broke so they sent us another one. That one arrived broke so they sent us two more packed in a wood crate! Those arrived unscathed. Also I am currently working with our dealer as well as VCs tech support to see if there is a problem with the fireplace regarding the heat output. I think it is what it is, but both the dealer and customer support thinks it should be running hotter.

Carl
 
I am finding this an interesting thread for a couple of reasons -

1. I'm surprised there aren't some more of our "usual suspects" jumping in on this one - usually folks are much more anxious to help out. (Come on guys, I can't carry this all by myself!)

2. It seems strange that there should be such a huge difference in what the two of you are experiencing in the way of support and help from VC and your local dealers, especially from VC - it almost is like you are dealing with two different companies. The only thing I can think of Jason, is to wonder if you purchased your stove off the internet rather than from a local dealer? We all like to save money, but VC has a fairly well publicized policy of supposedly only doing support on stoves purchased through regular dealers, not via internet shops, and if you read the some of the discussions on dealer support we've had here, many dealers don't want to support stoves they didn't sell initially, or at least they don't do as much for those customers.

I don't have much idea on what could be causing your poor performance problems. Two things that occurr are poor draft issues, poor air sealing on the rest of the house, and possibly "operator error"

Can each of you describe your burn procedure? Does the insert have a "bypass" damper? If so, when are you closing it? (Failure to close it would cause short burn times and low heat out put as most of the heat would go up the chimney) Where are you putting the coal bed? The other Everburn stoves seem to do best if the coals are piled up in front of the throat where the Everburn system sucks its air in at the back center of the stove. There is a thread elsewhere on the board where one of our users got a large Dutchwest Everburn, and does an excellent description of how the system works, and how he runs it for best performance.

One problem that some folks encounter is that stoves suck up a considerable amount of air, and if the house isn't well airsealed you can have enough additional cold air being pulled in to cancel out a good bit of the stoves heat, making it look like the stove isn't putting out enough. This is a subtle problem because it looks like the stove but really isn't. However, this usually isn't as much of an issue if one is using an OAK like Jason, so it might not account for his problem. Still, it doesn't hurt to check. As Elk (one of our regulars, who in his other identity is a building inspector) likes to point out, the stove is only a small part of heating efficiently, it is just as important to air-seal and control the air coming into the structure.

However one really dumb thought does occur to me Jason - in your first post, you mentioned that your OAK terminates in a "dryer vent". Is that what it really is or does it just look like one? If so, it could be your problem - where did that termination come from (VC or some other supplier?) A typical drier vent is designed to have air blowing OUT of the house, and has a flapper to keep air from sucking back in when the drier isn't running. A stove OAK is supposed to suck air IN, and a drier vent flapper would shut off the flow when you need it most! Check that vent, it shouldn't have any kind of flapper on it, at most there may be a screen to keep out leaves, rodents and so forth... Make sure there are no obstructions in that vent line....

What kind of draft do the two of you have? What sort of chimney setup are you venting into? How big is the flue? Inside or outside? How tall? Do you have a chimney cap? Do you seem to have good draft, especially when you have the Everburn system kicked in?

Gooserider
 
Thanks For the reply Gooserider...

The house is Brand New Construction (pretty tight house) and the Fireplace was installed by the VC dealerthis spring when being built. The dealerthat did this has been selling VC for a years. I like go local on big purcahses so if there is trouble you have some one to strangle! They are a pretty good size company here in CT from what my builder has told me and he has been using them for 18+ years. This is the first time that he has had trouble with a fireplace from them, and it is his second this year so he is Pissed off at them as well. Like I said I have been promised a sales rep. When I called VC directly the comment from Vermont Castings is call the company you bought it from, they really did not want to hear from the consumer, which urks me because if I have a problem with the sales company than where am I supposed to turn? I did go to another dealerthat just opened up down the street from us and he is a VC dealer as well, they have offered to get the sales rep as well on his next visit to the store. Like you said what a diference in support.

I have followed the directions to the "T" when using the fireplace, there is a air control on the left (does not seem to do much) and than the flue/damper on the right. When starting the fire I use paper and dry kindling, chimney stack with some 2-3" split logs on top, keep the flue open usually around 20-30 minutes until the top logs are burning decently and glowing, than I will decrease the flue control to 1/3 closed to fully closed depending on how it is burning. If I were to burn with the flue fully open the fireplace will never heat up and kick the fan on. The first 3-4 burns they tell you to run with the flue open to season the plates and I followed this as well, doing so the fan would rarely kick on until the flue is closed and the fireplace heats up. Usually takes about 1-1 1/2 hours to heat the fireplace to get the blower to kick on for me. Once the top logs are on the grate and burning I will add more 2-3" logs closing the flue completely, working up the fire so that I have a good 2-3" of coals in the fireplace. At this point the flue has been closed and if the fire looks like it is dead I will open the flue fully to half way for a few minutes to revive it (this is usually almost never). I can get 3-4 hours of burn if I put a few big logs on it, but not the 8 that Carl is getting. My room sounds smaller than his, and we have a emerson ceiling fan moving the air as well which seems to just keep the heat from gathering in front of the stove.
The chimney is supposed to be the VC lined pipe through an outside chase, It is around 30' high, the draft seems to be fine, I do not have any blowback on smoke and when you open the flue you can feel a pretty good breeze. I will check the OAK when I get home tonight, I am 90% sure that it is a dryer vent because they colored matched it to the siding, when it was installed and not white, which leads me to think well maybe thats the problem.

Jason
 
I am not sure what chimney or diameter flue I have but I can tell you tonight. The length is 25' with the round louvered cap. When I have the damper open I have some really good draft and never have had a problem with blowback or smoke. Not so sure about how good it is with the damper closed but I think it is fine, if the ember bed is small enough I can see flames being sucked up the throat in back. Like I said before I don't seem to have any problem burning I just am not getting the heat I was expecting. I can visually see that the damper is completely closed (for secondary burn) so nothing is going up the chimney.

Mine has a bypass damper, two positions either fully open or fully closed.

My coal bed is usually large enough that it covers the throat in back.

I wonder about the OAK and the cold air. It seems to me that sucking all that cold air in would cause a colder fire. Maybe I should try plugging it and just suck from inside the house (if I can). What do you guys think? Currently I have my inside air intake plugged so it can only pull in from the OAK.

I have two ceiling fans in that room for circulation and the fans do an excellent job of getting the heat of all of the house.
 
Jason, It does sound like you are doing the right thing, and have a reasonable setup, I hope it turns out the drier vent is the issue as that would be an easy fix - pull out the flap...

Elrack, Again it doesn't sound like you have an obvious problem. It wouldn't hurt to try it without the OAK, but I wouldn't expect it to make a big difference - if it doesn there is a problem with the OAK install. You make an interesting point about the incoming air temperature, but in reality it shouldn't make a big difference, as the change in temperature between inside air and outside air is such a tiny fraction of the temperature inside the stove that it won't have a significant effect on the fire temperature. OTOH, one of the arguements in favor of the OAK kit is that it doesn't cause you to send air that you've already put a fair bit of energy into heating up the chimney.

I'm not sure what else I can suggest for either of you.

Gooserider
 
I dont see where a 40K btu stove can heat 2000 squares, heck it should only heat about 1000 squares.
It sounds like a overdraft problem to me (short burn times and lack of air control)
 
I agree with MSG but I think it an entire different issue the construction of the chace and bump oiut the stove resides in If a bump out and built chase I have seen this occure all too often many times there is no insulation in the floor cavity of the bumpout. the other common defeciency is no insulation in the chase at all and the chase being completely outside the insulation envelope cold air gets in there and cools the fireplace it will make it function poorly. The cold air surounds the convection area and cools the air before it ever make it into the living space
most do not have insulated ceilings about 3 or 4' above the stove and dradt stopped penetrating the ceiling insulation. It gets damn cole in that chase and cold air settles towards that fireplace robbing it of any qappreciable heat. Unfortunately this is a common practice and sounds like it is a contributor in this case
 
Looked at the flap last night and it is a screen flap that is open (reverse of the dryer) so it is correct. I know for a fact that the chase is insulated all the way up (I watched over the construction of the house) and the floor is insulated as well in the bump out which is basement. The builder I used insulates the chase all the way up otherwise you will have draft problems is what he said. I can feel the draft when the flue is open and the door is open, not much if the flue is not open unless the wind is blowing.

Last night it was one of the colder nights here and the fireplace could not keep the room at 69, the heat actually kicked on several times since the temperature dipped below 67 in the room. I timed a load of wood in it after the fire was going and I got about 3 1/2 hours on it. I could have put maybe 2 more smaller logs in it but it was a pretty good size load and that was on the middle air setting with the flue closed.

I am not sure if the blower is strong enough as well, the air from it gets out maybe 20" from the face, 6" from the top grill the heat is pretty intense, 20" out you can barely feel a breeze. Also the air is drawn from the bottom backside, you would think you want to draw from the room? It does get very warm underneath the fireplace but the grate on the bottom really blocks airflow and you need to get the air from somewhere. I was thinking of using some aluminum car heating house and a second blower to push more air from the room through the back.

I am hoping to have someone local look at it. If it is what it is I will be ripping it out this summer, because I cannot afford to get the wood together to get less heat than a hairdryer!
 
Your chimney is too tall. Your sucking out the combustion gasses before they get a chance to burn. A differnt unit will have the same problem, which has nothing to do with the fact that you need a larger unit. 40K is not very big. The fan is not that effective because the box isnt hot, the box isnt hot because of the overdraft issue. You need to restrict draft somehow. I dont have the answer to that, im not a VC dealer. I will say again, this is not necessarly a VC issue, this is a chimney issue.
 
The fans get plugged with ash. It pulls right out and is easy to check. The screens on each end get plugged.

Who has too tall of a chimney?
 
elrack, can you describe your burn procedure? Are you closing the damper on the stove once it gets a good fire going? If yes, has the damper assembly been inspected? It sounds like either there is a linkage issue or it is binding and not closing all the way. This should be inspected thoroughly when the stove is cold. Also examine the seal of the door. This is a big gasket. Be sure it is sealing tightly all around by doing the dollar bill test.

"The fans get plugged with ash"

That seems quite odd. How is ash getting into the fans? Is there a leak in the ashbin system? This should be almost impossible unless one dumped a bin of ash in front of the stove while the fan was on high. Do be sure that fan is off when dumping ash and clean up any ash that spills below before turning the fan back on.
 
Jason insulation does two things it can prevent cold air from entering tht chase but that chase resides outside the normal insulation envelope the doulle insulate flue pipe does not generate enough heat to heat that chase nor should it. once an area gets cold insulation holds the cold in,, the only way to reduce this from happening it to seal the bumpout compartment a few feet above the stove with insulation and draft stopping enough residual heat from the stove will heat that confined area but will not heat the entile length of the chasee..

what I'm telling you insulation that entire chase is useless for preventing exactly what My prior post described with out confining the space to around the stove. ITs plain exposed to too mush colder vollume above that settles to the stove. I'm not saying other things may not be a problem or there may be issues with the stove its self are and issue mbut unless that cold chase area is reduced and confined you stove is not going to produce the heat to the living space whether it be manufacture xxx or yyy everburn ETB an or any else name you want to call it
Did you also know according to code, that chase should be covered with 5/8" firecode sheetrock?
 
Jason insulation does two things it can prevent cold air from entering tht chase but that chase resides outside the normal insulation envelope the doulle insulate flue pipe does not generate enough heat to heat that chase nor should it. once an area gets cold insulation holds the cold in,, the only way to reduce this from happening it to seal the bumpout compartment a few feet above the stove with insulation and draft stopping enough residual heat from the stove will heat that confined area but will not heat the entile length of the chasee..

what I'm telling you insulation that entire chase is useless for preventing exactly what My prior post described with out confining the space to around the stove. ITs plain exposed to too mush colder vollume above that settles to the stove. I'm not saying other things may not be a problem or there may be issues with the stove its self are and issue mbut unless that cold chase area is reduced and confined you stove is not going to produce the heat to the living space whether it be manufacture xxx or yyy everburn ETB an or any else name you want to call it
Did yoy also know according to code, that chase should be covered with 5/8" firecode sheetrock?

edit mode Also the inside walls of the building should not be insulated facing the chase so that chase has some heat?
 
Good questions,
1) I close the damper after I have a good fire going, by good fire I mean decent ember bed and the smoke combusts. If the ember bed is small enough I can see combustion at the air injectors at the back. Again I can get the fireplace temperature quite hot (600-650) by either damper open/door closed, damper open/door cracked, or damper closed/door cracked (this way gets real hot but generates no embers). Once I run it right though (damper closed/door closed) it doesn't matter how hot I got the stove it always drops off to just warm (380-450). This maybe all it was designed for.

2) The damper seals well, I cannot see anything go up it when it is closed. This past weekend I checked it with a piece of paper and it shuts tight all the way around it.

3) Same for the door, a small piece of paper (dollar sized) all the way around the gasket. sealed tight.

4) Since this is a front loading firplace it is common for some ash to fall out when I open the door. The fan is underneath and pulls air from the bottom louvres. Over time if not inspected/clean it can pull in enought to plug the intakes on the fan. Speaking from experience, I lost air flow and pulled the fan out and the ends were plugged.

As for the insulation of the chase, the area around the fireplace is insulated as well as the floor and the firestop. The chase past the firestop is not insulated however.
 
Seems like you are operating it well elrack, but by the design of the stove it looks like it's necessary to turn off the fan before opening the stove door and clean up spilt ash before restarting the fan.

Where are you measuring temps? I could see the front of the stove getting a little cooler, but the back where the everburn combustion is occurring should get hotter. As to procedure, you are doing it right. The next thing I would check is to see if the everburn assembly is choked with ash. If so, that would explain the anemic behavior when the damper is closed. Proper behavior should be a shift toward strong secondary combustion and a measurable increase in heat coming out of the fan outlet.

Edit: I just reread the thread and elrack, it sound like your stove is running ok. Where are you located? Can you describe your house? Age, condition, how much glass? How many square feet? How well insulated? Open or closed floor plan? It could be you just have too small a stove for when the temps really drop. How many btus is the furnace or boiler heating this house?
 
I Have a magnetic stove thermometer on the front just above the door and a thermocouple attached behind the top louvre right next to the box the houses the air intake control. The magnetic on the front is always cooler by at least 100 degrees.

It does get hotter when I kick in the secondary but for only a limited amount of time (20 minutes roughly). Then it will drop down.

How do I go about checking the everburn to see if it is plugged?

The room is big - 22x22x22, 3 windows - (2) 3x6 I think and (1) 5x10. I have two ceiling fans in this room for circulation. the upstairs is open to this room and is always warmer up there. I am located in Mid-Michigan, 5year old house, 2400 square feet. Insulated with cellulose (sticky newspaper). We use to have a non-airtight fireplace that we had to install an OAK on because It wouldn't get enough air from inside the house.

So based off of where I am measuring my temperatures can you tell me if that is what you would expect?
 
This is a big room with a very high ceiling. 10648 cu ft That's almost as much as our total house. It sounds like the stove is undersized and a lot of heat is spilling into other rooms, especially upstairs. Try closing off the upstairs as a test and track the big room's temps. Do you have insulated curtains for the windows? They would also help.

I'm not an expert with this stove, better to ask your dealer about how to clean the everburn. But before you do, try dampering it down with a nearby window open a couple inches. If that makes a difference, then check the entire OAK for obstructions, dents in the piping, disconnected piping, or a clogged outside screen. Might not be a bad idea to check it regardless.
 
The chase that the Fireplace flue goes through is roughly 6'x30". In there is also the flue for our furnace. There are several firestops that are installed along the way as well as per code. Chimney length from fireplace to outside is 27'.

Carl sounds like he has a similar room to ours, only bigger and the chimney sounds about the same, would that 2' make that that much of a difference?

Again the fireplace is rated from 11,000 BTU-40,500 BTU, and they say should do up to 2400 sq ft. Does anyone know how they come up with these ratings? Is this if the moons align and the wind is blowing right?

Mind you 2 seperate VC dealers all said that this stove would heat the place, 2 looked at the layouts and plans, one installed it. One guy was telling us that we would be sweating our asses off with it and recomended against it and was pushing a smaller heatnglo unit that you can control the flue as well. The last dealer I showed the pictures to as well and he said that we should be able to heat that area no problem, and is head scratching. He said that they have had mixed results with wood fireplace inserts.
 
The dealer I dealt with recommended this one as well. I wanted to go with the ewf36 cat unit but he said that the ewf30 would be plenty to heat our house. It heats our house but not plenty.
 
Jason, i would have sold you a 80,000 btu unit, 65,000 minimum.

27' tall chimney needs a damper.

Mabey elrack has a tighter house, or has a negative pressure problem helping him slow draft. Every install is different, your symptoms point to overdraft.
 
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